trying not to self-sabotage again

[Glides]

what's up nerds, it's me, your fellow nerd.

basically: i've kinda sorted dated three people over the past few months. the first of these is who i mentioned in a previous post, and that person abruptly ghosted with no explanation. i'm still talking to the second, that person's previous partner, and i'm now going on a date with a third person next week if all goes well. ironically, the first person is now dating the second person's other partner. i have basically walked backwards into a polyamorous relationship, shrugged, and went with it. complete last thing i would've ever expected. the second and third people are aware of each other but thankfully don't know each other.

that's not the relevant bit here. the relevant bit is me not fucking this up now that i'm dating for the first time in years and this time i have managed to not self-sabotage it so far and would like it to stay that way. along with me abruptly getting my first full-time job in three years (and with luck, will somehow keep it and FINALLY move out this summer, FINGERS CROSSED ), means that i am suddenly a Glides that has not been known before: a Competent Glides. A Glides that FINALLY seems to be on the road to properly getting their shit together. The last Glides anyone here would've ever expected to exist ever. And that comes along with dating (currently) two people who I am very fond of and I don't think I'm raising on any pedestals while them being two people who wouldn't have DREAMED of being near me back in my worst moments.

Which is the problem. They only know me as the semi-competent person who has done all this work and is truly trying to reform and truly coming to grips with what a shithead they previously were. The trouble with therapy is that it's put into highlight just what a toxic person I was and how the people I surrounded myself with only made it worse. Those of you in the old forum know exactly what I'm talking about. Fully reflecting on my first few relationship disasters. One of those people did abuse me, the others didn't, and I know that even though I wasn't outright abusive towards them (as far as I know, I didn't do any of the things my ex did to me), i was definitely toxic and manipulative and a bit controlling. All of this stemmed over the gaping hole of self-loathing I've dealt with my entire life, and my conviction that I had to earn their affection in the first place. I ended up ending the other two relationships mainly because I valued saving face and my pride over any attempt at building a connection.

Which is why I didn't date for three years, which in retrospect was a good choice. Both previous non-abusive relationships were either motivated by self-loathing (me dating the first person who showed interest regardless of whether or not we were compatible and projecting my insecurities onto them) or trauma (me dating a longtime friend very briefly to prove to myself that my previous partner constantly telling me no one would ever desire me again wasn't true).

So I very much need these not to be that. They're both lovely people. Truly lovely people. The first person was lovely until she ghosted me with no explanation and then I found out she did the same to my current partner and their OTHER partner, also with no explanation. That's a her problem. But the two I'm talking to now are lovely. Like genuinely kind and understanding people. Which also forms the problem: they did not know me at my worst, and the Jerkbrain keeps reasoning that if they don't know my Worst then I am Lying to them, and therefore taking advantage, and therefore don't deserve them. I have enough self-control that if it was manifesting, they'd be letting me know about it. I haven't pretended I haven't dealt with severe mental illness or trauma, or that I haven't hurt others in my own pain, not knowing the damage I was causing. I think they're both fully aware that I have baggage and I am really trying to work through my shit as best I can, despite Jerkbrain screaming that I'm unforgivable for all the hurt I caused.

For example, in the midst of my Worst, I was apparently really rude to a friend I'd had a huge crush on and was too scared to say something. Such pedestrian shit, but my closest friend recently told me that I'd been so rude that this person was STILL hurt by it. I genuinely don't remember ever being rude, but I'm not about to deny it. I've called him out on his shit, he's calling me out on mine. I was VILE to a lot of people in this very forum who were only trying to help. I said some really unforgivable shit. But I'm not mentioning this to self-deprecate like I did before, I'm trying to just figure out the way forward from here. To be a Bad Person trying really hard to be a Good One. I don't need to be validated for any kind of perceived goodness, I just don't know what steps to take from here. The last thing either of these people need is someone projecting their self-loathing onto them, even if I feel like I don't deserve either of them.

How do I forgive myself for my Worst? Should I forgive myself? What do I do so I'm making amends in a healthy way? Because I don't want to randomly reach out and apologize to those I've wronged, I feel like that'll only make it worse. Obviously I didn't perceive myself as a Bad Person despite constantly saying I was. But I did so much harm to people. I scared so many people. I feel like I don't even deserve the improvements that I am making and still make them just so I'm not hurting anyone else. The only thing that lends me any kind of comfort is that there doesn't seem to be a pattern in the way that I've hurt people. When I was made aware of it, I stopped. It's the only comfort I have, that at least (as far as I can tell) I didn't know any better. I was in a lot of pain, and self-medicating unhealthily. In my pain, it literally didn't occur to me. But that also doesn't let me off the hook for how rude I was. It was the only example provided to me as a kid. I am a product of a "nurture, not nature" environment.

But I also feel this innate fear that it's only me having to make this kind of improvement, that everyone else has Always Been Good and never hurt anyone in any way. My pain has turned from self-loathing to just unbelievable amounts of guilt and remorse, and then I think that maybe if I stew in the guilt long enough, I'll have repented for what I did wrong. But if I do that, it'll bleed into my relationships and the cycle of self-loathing starts all over again. So I don't know what to do. I just need a kick in the ass about this.

[Hielario]

A lot of your past behaviour came from being untouchable and surrounded by nasty people; remember that always and don't feel so guilty for having been what the world made you into; even if you're a better person now (which is great to hear), a lot of it wasn't your fault.

You aren't lying to them for having changed. Does a formerly ruinous building lie because it's no longer full of cracks and falling all over the sidewalk?

But I also feel this innate fear that it's only me having to make this kind of improvement, that everyone else has Always Been Good and never hurt anyone in any way.

In my opinion, "everyone else" just got the opportunities to figure out all of this shit way sooner than you or me. It's the same way I went through a sort of belated adolescence in frigging university because there were tons of interpersonal things and experiences I hadn't gotten to live in my teens like every other idiot.

[Enail]

Somehow I missed this one, oops. I agree with Hielario, it doesn't sound like you're lying about or minimizing your past, and it's not lying just to be doing better now.

And everyone has hurt others at some point; someone claiming they truly never have hurt anyone would honestly be a red flag to me, because that just seems like they're so arrogant they won't admit it or are too self-centered to even notice when they do. At the drop of a hat, I personally can think of a dozen times I've been selfish or thoughtless or manipulative or just plain mean in ways I'd never want to repeat. And that's not a thing that just ends and I'm never inconsiderate or never say anything mean, I still do hurt people sometimes, but I think I'm managing to be kinder more of the time over time.

I tend to think in most cases, reaching out to people you're no longer in contact with to apologize isn't likely to help anyone, though if there's specific cases where there's something specific you think might help them to hear you acknowledge that you wronged them, that might be worth considering. For the most part, unless it's something concrete that can still be made right or if it's someone you're still in contact with, I'd say the best way to 'make amends' is just to remember what you did that you don't want to do again, and try to do better. Which it sounds like you're very much doing.

I think repentance and guilt's purpose is pretty much just to make you recognize when you've done something wrong and make you decide to not do it again, so if you're staying aware of the kinds of ways you don't want to behave and putting effort into acting differently, which, again, it sounds like you are, there's no benefit to holding onto the feelings. Not forgiving yourself doesn't make you better than if you forgive yourself. So why not be compassionate to yourself as much as you'd want to be to someone else? You're la person too.

[Glides]

[quote="Hielario"]A lot of your past behaviour came from being untouchable and surrounded by nasty people; remember that always and don't feel so guilty for having been what the world made you into; even if you're a better person now (which is great to hear), a lot of it wasn't your fault.

You aren't lying to them for having changed. Does a formerly ruinous building lie because it's no longer full of cracks and falling all over the sidewalk?

And everyone has hurt others at some point; someone claiming they truly never have hurt anyone would honestly be a red flag to me, because that just seems like they're so arrogant they won't admit it or are too self-centered to even notice when they do. At the drop of a hat, I personally can think of a dozen times I've been selfish or thoughtless or manipulative or just plain mean in ways I'd never want to repeat. And that's not a thing that just ends and I'm never inconsiderate or never say anything mean, I still do hurt people sometimes, but I think I'm managing to be kinder more of the time over time.

I think repentance and guilt's purpose is pretty much just to make you recognize when you've done something wrong and make you decide to not do it again, so if you're staying aware of the kinds of ways you don't want to behave and putting effort into acting differently, which, again, it sounds like you are, there's no benefit to holding onto the feelings. Not forgiving yourself doesn't make you better than if you forgive yourself. So why not be compassionate to yourself as much as you'd want to be to someone else? You're la person too.

So I think I spoke WAY too soon, yet again.

Basically, to shorten the story, I had a situation this morning where I got incredibly anxious re: trying to find a way to move out and really struggling to find a place within my budget that's not a million miles away. One of the two people, the one I've known longer, calls in the middle of this and when they realize I'm borderline panicking about this, begin trying to comfort me. Somewhere in the middle of this, I get so overwhelmingly guilty about burdening them (despite not even wanting to) that I blurt out something along the lines of "we need to break up because I'm 26 and living with my parents, you don't deserve someone who can't even function as a person." Pretty much in my head as a compassionate statement letting them know that I like them so much that I'm willing to destroy the entire relationship just to demonstrate they could do so much better than me. Of course, they instead are triggered by this because a former partner used to constantly threaten to break up with them in order to manipulate and control them. They break out crying, I'm instantly shook out of my self-loathing malaise, and within seconds I realize I have done the EXACT thing I have become world-renowned for. They hang up, we wait a couple hours and call back, and they explain what this abusive ex did and how what I said reminded them of it. I'm fully in the wrong here, and I know it.

Every single time, without clockwork, I conclude that the only way I can demonstrate affection for someone is to completely destroy the good thing we have because I am so loathsome in my mind that getting them as far away from me as possible is an act of compassion. I really thought I was finally mature enough not to do this. Now they are "taking space" and "re-evaluating the relationship" because they don't like how I keep assuming how they feel for them, which they have every right to feel.

So anyway, took me less than 24 hours since making the first post to completely contradict every point I had previously made. I'm now terrified that upon having to tell the other person why they are suddenly my only partner, they will also leave me, and I will be at square one for the umpteenth time. This is some kind of superpower. I feel a spiral beginning. Good to be back.

[Enail]

Agh, I'm really sorry that happened. But it sounds like a pretty common thing for people who struggle with self-hatred to do; not a great thing to do, and one that can do damage to a relationship over time, but in most cases not one that would have the effect it had on your partner or that would destroy a relationship in one blow. You should definitely make efforts not to let your self-hatred make claims about other people's feelings, yes, and since your partner has the experiences they have it turned out really hurtful and potentially destructive to your relationship, but that sounds more like a case of your issues unfortunately and unknowingly mixing badly with your partner's trauma than you being awful or inherently destructive to relationships.

It's something you should keep working on getting a handle on, but you've done an amazing amount of improvement on it, and I'd call it a pretty small slip-up, even though it happened to be more significantly harmful in this case. And it's not such a horrible thing to have done that telling your other partner means they're guaranteed to leave you - honestly, I would find it fairly surprising for just learning that to be a break-up issue for most people unless they have similar trauma to this partner. Good luck with both partners, and try not to beat yourself up for it.

[Glides]

Agh, I'm really sorry that happened. But it sounds like a pretty common thing for people who struggle with self-hatred to do; not a great thing to do, and one that can do damage to a relationship over time, but in most cases not one that would have the effect it had on your partner or that would destroy a relationship in one blow. You should definitely make efforts not to let your self-hatred make claims about other people's feelings, yes, and since your partner has the experiences they have it turned out really hurtful and potentially destructive to your relationship, but that sounds more like a case of your issues unfortunately and unknowingly mixing badly with your partner's trauma than you being awful or inherently destructive to relationships.

It's something you should keep working on getting a handle on, but you've done an amazing amount of improvement on it, and I'd call it a pretty small slip-up, even though it happened to be more significantly harmful in this case. And it's not such a horrible thing to have done that telling your other partner means they're guaranteed to leave you - honestly, I would find it fairly surprising for just learning that to be a break-up issue for most people unless they have similar trauma to this partner. Good luck with both partners, and try not to beat yourself up for it.

They reached out again and we talked it out but they're still really cautious. I don't know if I'm being insensitive to be as irrationally upset as I am about them being so set off, because I like knowing where the emergency exits in a relationship are. I fully know I was insensitive but it sucks to be in the wrong, especially if you weren't trying to hurt someone's feelings. They said it felt like I was infantilizing them to make decisions for them about their feelings. But at this point Jerkbrain is screaming "BURN IT ALL DOWN" and now they know me as this deeply self-loathing person as opposed to the person who was kinda charming when they first met. Once a partner figures out I hate myself, that tends to be the beginning of the end as far as it's concerned. They feel as though I'm putting the emotional burden onto them (which I largely am), and I've lost at least two partners because of this. But I also don't know how to accept love longterm before I feel guilty like I'm taking advantage of them. I don't know what's worse: Jerkbrain screaming that any second I'm not telling them how awful I am so they know I know is tantamount to sexual assault, or someone growing increasingly unattracted to me because even now I have no self-esteem whatsoever.

And then Jerkbrain reasons I ought to just be alone again and I should've stayed a virgin, and honestly? 2013 Me didn't know how good they had it, that a person liking you is actually far worse than nobody liking you. If nobody likes you, there's nothing to ruin. It is incredibly difficult to get any one person to like you, but it is incredibly easy to get that person to then dislike you. I really do feel like you should only be in relationships if you don't have this problem, and that the thing I spent so long chasing for the sake of my ego only made me feel worse in the long run.

So now I have no idea what to do. Because nothing terrifies me more than people disliking me but then I need them to dislike me in order for some sense of karmic justice to be done in my distorted brain. And then I just laugh because it's been almost ten years on this forum and I'm still making the exact same mistakes I did in 2013. Because if someone likes me, I must be hurting them or taking advantage of them. I must've told a really good lie somehow. And I'm not saying that's true, I just can't shut Jerkbrain up for good.

[Enail]

I'm glad you were able to talk it out with them - and I'll note that sounds like a thing you wouldn't have been able to do without spiralling and trying to burn it down a few years ago. It's a difficult balance to be able to express yourself genuinely without putting your feelings on them to manage, and becomes a lot more difficult when your partners are also dealing with big things of their own, but you're getting better and better at finding that balance.  

And it's understandable and not insensitive to be upset by their reaction, as long as you're not taking it out on them or making your upsetedness about their upsetedness their problem; it's stressful and scary when people's reactions are unexpected and not predictable to you, and it hurts to cause someone else a level of pain you wouldn't have seen coming for something you didn't intend to be hurtful. This is hard, it's okay to have feelings about that; as always, your job is just to make sure you're not acting on those feelings in harmful ways.

And it's okay to let other people form their own picture of you - no one is ever going to have the exact same view of you that you have of yourself. You're not responsible for making sure their view agrees with yours, however much Jerkbrain feels you are, and even if you obeyed it and tried your hardest to, they would still sometimes see you in ways you don't see yourself, so it's an impossible task anyway. You can both be charming and self-loathing, feel bad about yourself but have other people see good things. That's not lying, that's just not having ultimate control over other people's thoughts and not being omniscient and 100 % objective.

[Glides]

I'm glad you were able to talk it out with them - and I'll note that sounds like a thing you wouldn't have been able to do without spiralling and trying to burn it down a few years ago. It's a difficult balance to be able to express yourself genuinely without putting your feelings on them to manage, and becomes a lot more difficult when your partners are also dealing with big things of their own, but you're getting better and better at finding that balance.  

And it's understandable and not insensitive to be upset by their reaction, as long as you're not taking it out on them or making your upsetedness about their upsetedness their problem; it's stressful and scary when people's reactions are unexpected and not predictable to you, and it hurts to cause someone else a level of pain you wouldn't have seen coming for something you didn't intend to be hurtful. This is hard, it's okay to have feelings about that; as always, your job is just to make sure you're not acting on those feelings in harmful ways.

And it's okay to let other people form their own picture of you - no one is ever going to have the exact same view of you that you have of yourself. You're not responsible for making sure their view agrees with yours, however much Jerkbrain feels you are, and even if you obeyed it and tried your hardest to, they would still sometimes see you in ways you don't see yourself, so it's an impossible task anyway. You can both be charming and self-loathing, feel bad about yourself but have other people see good things. That's not lying, that's just not having ultimate control over other people's thoughts and not being omniscient and 100 % objective.

Honestly at this point they're getting kinda fed up with me being a constant downer. I'm taking great care not to insult myself, but I also can't help that I sound absolutely miserable in every reaction with them. So naturally they're pulling away and prioritizing their other partners, which I think is the big downside of polyamory. The big downside of monogamy is that inevitably you're going to get bored of each other because we are creatures of novelty, and the downside of polyamory is that. I'm not entirely sure I want to date them anymore, I don't know if they want to date me, I think we're just annoying each other with our relentless spiraling. I can't tell how much of it is projection but we're barely texting anymore. Our last call was two days ago and they ended it a half hour in because I could barely speak five words at a time in response. I'm that constantly stressed out by trying to figure out how to get the vaccine/managing until the new job starts/this huge depressive episode I've fallen into.

And that's the problem: I actually can be kinda charming for bits and spurts, and then it stops. I stop being able to entertain people. I dunno. I feel like each of us is waiting for the other to call it off, but I can't tell if that's me projecting or not. I can't tell how they actually feel. I just assume my misery must be burdening them.

[Hielario]

Ugh, I hear you, I know how it is. I have that same tendency to spiral into how miserable I am and make myself tiresome to others. The only thing that seems to help is reminding myself of that last part and trying to keep it succint. I inform them shortly in very direct and unambigous terms, so they know, and then try to skip to something else or how they are.

Btw, that last part sounded...weirdly familiar to me. What happened to that suspicion that you had Asperger's? Did your therapist ever do anything to confirm it?

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