Datelessman post re a dilemma

[inbloomer]

Just regarding Datelessman’s latest blogpost, in which he talks about an unresolved situation with “Sonia”.

I don’t know the person or the specific circumstances, so my note of caution here may be misplaced. But I have too many times been in situations where I’m thinking exactly the same things, i.e.:

“I’m not all that attracted to this person, who clearly has some flaws and issues. But she has some charm as well and does appear to be very into me. Maybe this is what a first relationship realistically looks like. But I want to be totally honest and honourable and not take advantage or hurt her feelings, so I should proceed with great care and sensitivity.”

What I have found with such people is that once you are bought in, simply from the sunk cost fallacy of having invested time and energy in this connection, they very quickly and completely forget that this started as you doing her a favour, flipping it around into her being the one rejecting you. Don’t expect any kind of gratitude or consideration of your feelings in return – and this is the problem with flirting, it’s very cheap and deniable. No matter how blatant it was, she can always say “Oh, I was just being friendly, you read way too much into it”.

And with society still finding it hard to get beyond a dichotomy of men just want sex and women are the gatekeepers, it’s very hard to get any sympathy beyond “I’m sorry you’re disappointed she rejected your advances”.

Anyway, all I’m saying is look out for yourself, and be prepared that what people say they want when it’s idle banter – especially when the connection is wholly or mostly online – often isn’t what they actually want when given the opportunity to make it real.

[Datelessman]

Just for the sake of clarity, the blog entry inbloomer is referring to is here: https://datelessman.wordpress.com/2024/06/01/dateless-man-vs-an-awkward-dilemma-or-an-update-about-one/

While I do have the link to my blog next to my avatar, I try not to use this forum to more overtly promote it, if only because I think that is tacky. I have linked this forum at the blog a few times, not that I have much of a following. So basically like the kink post, this is a topic I might have eventually brought here when I felt more comfortable about talking about in less of a "safe space," but now we're here a little sooner than I expected, so I want to clarify some details, or make some details clear.

Whenever I talk about my real life friends or associates at my blog, I use an alias for them, so "Sonia" is not her real name. She is not someone I met recently, or exclusively online. She is someone I met IRL as part of my social network around 1998-2000 or so, when we were teenagers and she was basically the unofficial live-in girlfriend of one of my pal's exes. We hung out at the gatherings of mutual friends quite a few times and knew each other locally before she moved upstate/out of state by the time I started college in 2000-2001. She moves back and forth between upstate/out of state with brief periods of being local again, basically depending on who she is dating. At one point when she was local again (around 2011-2013 ish) I got her a job where I was working, and she worked there for about 4-8 months. I consider her one of my oldest "female friends" (though I hate to use the term, since I hear "female" in Ferengi voice), especially of the ones I still talk to regularly.

I will try (key word, TRY) to keep the summary brief. I know it sounds dumb, but I don't like just copying and pasting blog entries here, since it seems lazy and disrespectful.

Like most of my friends who are women, especially those I first met in high school or college, I'd initially had an unrequited crush on her at some point at the start. At the time, I tried to cover for my shyness by acting like an aloof, standoff-ish "tough guy," which was an act I in no way could sell. Sonia seemed to see thru it and when we first met she spent most of the night giving me crap, so I was genuinely surprised when she would talk to me in future gatherings of pals (i.e. a mutual associate used to stage infamous boozing parties in his aunt's basement). When I went to college we started talking on AIM and I was surprised when she admitted to having had (past tense) a crush on me very briefly. The thing was that ever since then, Sonia moved from one boyfriend to another. Though she identifies as bisexual (and claims men can't always satisfy her sexually), outside of high school she's only dated men. Her life story, as I have sadly found too common with the women I have known, involves abuse. And while I will not say she is as pure as the fresh snow, she is nowhere near as "easy" as a lot of my male friends painted her as at the time. She has spent the last 20 or so years moving from one long term, monogamous relationship to the next. She basically needs a stable home environment to pull herself together, and has rarely had that for long. Virtually all of her romantic relationships have become toxic by the end.

I became her friend. And I don't mean a friend who sees that as a consolation prize or a dock in a port for something else. I value friendship very, very highly. I have not had many friends in my life, and I don't make them easily. I moved on from whatever romantic feelings I had for her, since she was always involved with a dude she usually described as a fiance for most of the time I have known her since the 90s or early 2000s. That said, Sonia still remained unique among my friend group, namely for being the only one who who never adhered to the unofficial "deal" I made with them. For the past 10+ years, the rest of my friends have this unofficial deal where they never ask about my love life, and I never talk about it. It just kind of happened and it works for all of us. Sonia would routinely ask me if I was dating anyone. It would throw me off every time she did. It's a normal thing to ask, I'm just not used to it. And during periods when she moved upstate/out of state, there would be lull periods of no contact.

Sonia's health has taken a drastic downturn over the past 5-7 years or so. She still does not have a full diagnosis; at one point it was believed to be some kind of cancer but now that is up in the air. She's spent considerable time in hospitals and rehab facilities during that span. It's taken a toll on her weight and she's currently applying for disability benefits, which can take years to get in America. My mother needed 2 years to get them, and that was in the late 90s, not now (after 16 years of Republican administrations which have defunded SSI offices). She's currently in a familiar situation; living with a toxic ex out of a lack of any other viable options economically. Most of her relationships end this way, because she has no money to live by herself and her family is not always viable. So she is living in her ex boyfriend's mothers house, though trying to get someplace else.

What's changed now is that when Sonia chats with me, she's making it blindingly obvious that she is romantically attracted to me. Like, even for my clueless Inspector Gadget-style virginal face, it is well beyond the playful flirting of a friend. Virtually every conversation involves her showering me with compliments, making occasional references to wanting to marry me (or more frequent declarations of love and/or wanting to see my genitals), and the ultimate sign of a woman's bond: her doing my astrological chart. I treat the horoscope as I treat Doctor Who; something I have no interest in, but am willing to humor a friend about (much as I have stuff I am into that some friends humor me about, like my Ninja Turtles obsession). On two occasions, unprompted, she sent me videos where she flashed me her breasts. I am not entirely sure what has brought about this change. It could be that I have been able to occasionally aid her financially now (much as I sometimes give to people's Kickstarters or GoFundMe's for funerals or medical expenses, as our generation does). It could be that since she is disabled now, she has a lot more respect for my endless caretaking of my mother. It could be that she's pushing 40 and in a desperate situation. She could also be horny after likely not having sex for a few years. I genuinely don't know. I did nothing on my end. I even keep dirty jokes to a minimum.

I know what some folks may think: "Why the **** are you not jumping over fences to sleep with her, you crazy moron?" Well, there are a few reasons I think are fair.

The first and most obvious is that it is not practical. She currently lives out of state in her ex-boyfriend's mother's house (where they usually harass her for money). That alone is diving crotch first into the opening minutes of an episode of DATELINE NBC, and while I am not concerned for my own safety, Sonia being left there with a toxic ex post-coitus is very dangerous. But the other reasons are more emotional and intellectual. Sonia needs things that I cannot provide to her. I cannot currently provide her with a safe stable environment, not at my current financial situation or with my own disabled, cancer stricken mom. She basically needs a caretaker and I cannot be caretaker for two people. I just do not have the physical or emotional bandwidth for it. I have been a caretaker to various degrees for my (now late) grandmother and mother since I was roughly 17-18 years old, and am nearing burnout. The very idea of her and my mother living under the same roof is the stuff of nightmares for me.

More to the point, I am one of the only male friends she has ever had who didn't make passes at her or shamelessly try to get her into my pants. Our friendship is critical to her and I don't think it would do her psyche any good if things went there with me and it turned out less than perfect. I have never had a lover before, and I am not ready to commit to anyone right now, especially pre-cohabitation. During this recent phase I have mostly played dumb and casual when she makes passes. As her friend I am in a position that I know exactly what she needs, and also know for a variety of reasons I am in no position to provide it. Sonia has mostly sought LTR's for at least a decade, if not longer. I know this; there is no excuse of ignorance on my part.

The added element here is even if I didn't have my mother to tend to, I am very hesitant to leap from one caretaking role to another. Emotionally I am not sure of the notion of jumping from a platonic, asexual one to one involving a lover. But more to the point, if and when the situation with my mother resolves itself (either positively or negatively), I almost emphatically want a break. I am not saying that I am unwilling to date someone handicapped, nor that I am unwilling to be the caretaker of a lover that I was in a LTR or married to whose health crashed. I am. I just...wanted to take a year or so off in between. Is that wrong? Is that evil or selfish of me, to genuinely want a break from that kind of responsibility after having it on my shoulders in some capacity since I was in high school? I don't know. Maybe it is. I've lived a life where I tried my best to do the right thing, often at the expense of my own feelings and happiness. But maybe being selfless isn't a part time job. Maybe once you commit to that long enough, it just is your life now, and deviating from that even for a moment makes me rotten.

I have learned a few things from this new era of our friendship. For instance, a few months ago Sonia asked me point blank if I was still a virgin, and I answered with, "I would rather not talk about it" at least twice. The context is that since I do not want to lead her on or give her any unnecessary emotional pain or confusion, I would prefer not to talk about those kinds of things. And it is a shame. In theory it might be nice to be able to talk about one of my deepest, darkest, most shameful secrets (either that or the kink) with one of my oldest friends and not folks online (no offense). But with the context of not wanting to lead her on, I don't think it is wise to talk about my own sexuality and then hem and haw about sleeping with her for various reasons, y'know? Sonia flatters me almost endlessly, and while it isn't in a "love bombing" way, I find it uncomfortable because I am so unused to it. Someone tells me I am "handsome" or "sexy" or "a good son" and I think they're talking about someone else.

In fairness, I have not discussed these feelings with Sonia at all. It is absolutely possible that I am infantilizing her and believe her to be more emotionally defenceless than she is. I have a tendency to do that sometimes to people I care about; seeing them as totally helpless without me. I suppose this also manifests in some of my thoughts on dating (i.e. acting as if women would see it as a mortal sin if I was less than perfect or presented any kind of nuance). It's possible she could understand all of this and not implode into Dimension X if I was unwilling to commit to something long term before we've even had a date. My anxiety is about the "double or nothing" pressure of that chat. It'll either go fine or break her heart, perhaps more than she can physically bare.

I mean, all things being abstract, would I like to sleep with her? Sure. She is still "my type" physically, for one. In terms of a first partner, I doubt I would find better than a long term friend who actually cares about me who wouldn't be eager to humiliate me or complain about me to all of her friends if I failed to live up to expectations in the bedroom for my first ever session (especially as my libido is slowing at 42). A relative stranger I meet online or at a bar is under no inclination to show me an ounce of pity or mercy at my age, and in New York, few single women my age do. I think it would bolster my ego considerably. And we get along well and are into the same stuff (especially geek wise). The thing is, that for her own sake I don't think it is good for me to "start" something that at this point in time I am unable to finish.

I suppose someone might say, "You'll always be a virgin with that attitude." My reply at this stage would be...so? I think the fact that I haven't made a "woe is me, for I am virgin" topic here for at least 1-2 years is demonstrating by example that it just doesn't hurt me as much as it used to. I've learned to manage it (like a chronic condition), enjoy what I can about the rest of my life, and allow dealing with a parent who has cancer to give me perspective about the grander things in life. If my choice is being a virgin or risking undue emotional harm to one of my best friends, then the former is an easy choice. It's just been causing me anxiety because some kind of awkward talk about the terms of whatever our relationship is or isn't is inevitable, and I keep putting it off. I think it is too important to leave to IM's or even a telephone chat. On the other hand I have no idea when I will see her in person next. I am almost deathly afraid of harming Sonia emotionally, even by being misunderstood. Yes, for a guy who gives 20,000 word responses, I usually fear being misunderstood.

So, that's the context. Have at it. And clearly, I didn't try hard enough to be brief.

[inbloomer]

I’m not out to repost personal detail from your blog straight to here (even though the audience here is tiny), so I kept it vague, but it did seem a point (as with fetishes) that has wider relevance.

My concern is simply that from the tone of your post, you’re very keen to bank this as empirical proof that you can be attractive to women. Which is 100% understandable and nobody would blame you. But it is a vulnerability that other people can take advantage of. My advice is don’t think any of these factors mean someone can’t hurt you:

i) Everyone thinks this person is really lovely;
ii) We’ve been friends for years; or even…
iii) She’s a bit pathetic and I’m in the power position here.

As you identify, you’re in a situation that isn’t sustainable long-term, it will need to be tackled somehow. You should be aware there is the possibility that she will try to avoid answering, abruptly go cold and distant, deny everything and blame you, and then the result be that you’re no longer friends. And if so, that would be her fault not yours.

That is just from my experience: I know nothing about Sonia and it may be that it goes far better than that. I just know that while rejection on its own is disappointing but manageable, when you really thought you were doing what someone wanted from you, at some personal cost and sacrifice, and get kicked in the teeth for it, that can be deeply wounding.

[Datelessman]

Much like the kink post, this was a topic I was intending to bring up here eventually. The interaction on my blog is low and as I have stated before, I am rarely challenged there. Here, though the amount of regulars is low (unfortunately), there's more of a possibility of someone telling me something I don't want to hear, but need to. This time around it wasn't as surprising or unexpected when you'd bridged the gap as it was with the kink post. I mean...it is the juiciest thing I have posted at the blog since.

It is a shame that the audience here is tiny. I like the format. I have a Geek Joys thread to post at to show, for instance, that I'm more than the virginity guy. I post there so much because I genuinely enjoy that kind of stuff. I could have returned to the main DNL article forums under a different name but I just don't want to deal with the drama.

Your interpretation of my post kind of fascinates me, since I wasn't intending for it to be seen as some article of evidence about me being seen as appealing to women. If I have learned anything from this experience, it is that a lot of my issues are deeper rooted than I thought. I genuinely find the flattery off putting, because I am not used to it and my natural reaction is skepticism. It's just harder to dismiss it when it comes from a friend of over 25 years, versus a relative stranger I might theoretically be dating after matching on an app. I don't know if I would have been any more willing to talk with Sonia honestly about all of the pressures and angst about the virginity if there wasn't the context of not wanting to lead her on.

Admittedly, when I started the blog and for the first year or so of it (2014-2016) when I was recounting my litany of unrequited and underwhelming romantic experiences going all the way back to elementary school, it was partly about mounting the evidence that I never had a chance. But going through the time to put thoughts to text and then have others interpret that and give feedback led to some better understanding. That, and well, my own shift in age and perspective over time after having done so.

And actually...I can't say that "everyone thinks this person is lovely." I am pretty much one of the only one of our original circle of pals who has maintained consistent contact with her. Virtually all of my male friends see her as somewhere between a tramp and a floozy, and always have. One of them once sat me down outside his apartment maybe ten years ago (after Sonia had made an unexpected guest appearance during some rare bar crawl I'd tagged in with my pals with) and said in no uncertain terms, "She has the hots for you, and if you don't tap it, maybe I will." At that time, she was living with a then-fiance and I considered that matter long since closed. That's always been the problem for me with my friends. The guys are all mercenaries or don't want to talk vulnerable stuff. And the women are overused to men thinking of them as free therapists so I usually play the other role; being the guy who hears their problems for once. Sonia is one of a couple of women in the social circle of pals I have who I kept in contact with when many of them lost interest for various reasons.

I appreciate your advice. I know the inevitable conversation or resolution of this could go sideways very quickly. I'm not so concerned about the emotional toll on me, because I know my own capacity for pain. Virtually every serious interaction with women that even shifted someplace close to romance has come with it. I know I can take it and not completely fall apart. I'm more concerned about Sonia, since she's in a more precarious physical state than me. I am worried she is seeing me as some ultimate salvation and I am uncertain that I can or want to be that, for my own reasons, and I am unsure how to feel about that myself. That is part of the reason why I am keeping some things closer to my vest. If things do go "pear shaped" with Sonia, at least she can't say, "Why did you go into all that stuff about being a virgin/having fetishes if you didn't want to do ____ with me?" when I don't bring that stuff up. I consider it a can of worms, unopened.

It is very possible she could go radio silent if things come to a head. It is very possible she might "kick me in the teeth" for trying to be a friend, or misunderstanding my conflicted feelings since I am angst ridden about them too.

From my experience with Sonia, I suspect a highly probable outcome is Sonia tells me that she "understands" and it winds up breaking her heart but she keeps that on the down low with me, at least until she can't bottle it and it gets to a boil. Basically that it becomes a version of the Lisa Simpson/Ralph Wiggum moment ("And here you can pinpoint the exact moment where her heart rips in two"). You are right, I am not responsible for Sonia's lot in life, or the horrific levels of abuse and string of toxic relationships she's had. None of that is my fault. All I have ever tried to be for her is a good friend. I guess the problem is that sometimes that means eventually having a not-so-fun conversation that needs to be had, and that risks some degree of emotional pain. And I am not eager for that kind of thing.

Again, it is also possible Sonia is not as vulnerable as I sometimes interpret her as being, and understands when I inevitably have this conversation with her. It's the not knowing which is a bit anxiety inducing.

[inbloomer]

That all sounds very sensible. While fully accepting this person isn't in that category anyway, I think there is a "paradox of niceness", whereby the women who come across as most sweet, lovely and sunny can leave the worst trails of destruction behind them, in terms of very hurt men who can't work out what they did wrong. It's always very hard to get to the root of why someone behaves a certain way, though the simplest explanation is that if that superficial charm has always worked very well for them, they've never needed to develop deeper empathy or skills to handle messy, human situations.

I can't say how a truly nice woman who's genuinely into you would act. But I have come to the conclusion that anyone who is truly nice and not into you that way won't let boundaries get confused in the first place. They won't keep someone hanging on for months and months in a state of almost dating and then ghost or slow fade.

It's a real shame that your friends don't sound great. Lots of men my age have a partner but then little else, everything is invested in the partner. I don't have a partner but do have a small but strong set of friend and family relationships that I appreciate every day, and are the best model for how a prospective partner who was truly nice should be acting.

[P.S. I think the fetishes we have are actually quite a good guide to how genuine someone is or not, because they're all things that require someone who is willing to tolerate a degree of vulnerability and discomfort. The paradox of niceness person quickly turns passive-aggressive at anything where they're not completely in control.]

[Datelessman]

I don't know. I tend to think the people who leave the worst "trails of destruction" behind them are those who are genuinely toxic, abusive, or passive-aggressive, not just confused or maybe repressed. Sometimes people get hung up on the idea that there's not always a right or wrong reason for a breakup. Relationships are mutual things. If one side just isn't feeling it, then it's over. It's tough to grasp when someone's in the middle of it, but that's the simplicity in a nutshell.

In Sonia's defense, I am not like a normal dude with normal experience. A lot of guys know the game of returning a flirt with a flirt or seeming to be eager for every opportunity. They haven't dealt with over 25 years of romantic futility or oblivion, and the crippling self doubt or hesitation it can cause. The average man, or even person, doesn't treat even the slightest sign of interest as, "This person is clearly mistaken" or "I have to careful I don't break them by accident" like a bull in a china shop.

I think the situation with my male pals is typical of what tends to happen as groups get older. First it starts if/when folks go to different colleges, and/or when some find someone to couple up with or have more (or less) dating success, and some don't. I'm the most introverted and shy of them, and I did myself no favors being "like a man" and hiding that for much of the time I knew them. They liked bars and clubs way more than I did, or do. And now a few have moved away, and others are busy with their own careers and families, including wives and children. They've mostly moved on from the levels of geeky stuff which is part of my daily life.

I basically get the feeling a lot of them outgrew me, and in their defense, I didn't make it difficult for them. I tend to go thru long periods of being a loner. I sometimes call it "auto-hermit." I did have the long term stress and responsibility of being a caretaker in a poor family (most of my male pals were middle class), but there's only so much I can blame on society or others for my lot. Besides, it's not too bad in many regards. My job's been going very well the last two years, for instance. But, no, I missed a lot of the "life's millstones" my pals stepped over at more or less what society deems a normal rate. None of them were double-digits studs but they dated a bit, found someone they connected to more than others, and made lives with them.

The fetish is...something else. I think one of the best lessons learned from having one is that communication is absolutely key, and I am sure the same can be said for...everything, really. But especially relationships, long or short, or anything bedroom related. Like I have said before, I've been hiding my virginity since I was about 19-20, but I've been keeping others from learning about the fetish since I was about ten and still confused about it. My problem with it is that women are already pretty much forced "to tolerate a degree of vulnerability and discomfort," and usually worse, just living life. Sonia's history of abuse is worse than some but virtually every woman I have ever known, including family, revealed some incident involving actual or attempted abuse if and when they were comfortable enough with me to talk about it. I don't usually feel women need some reminder of a power imbalance with men or are eager to place themselves in a submissive position, especially one that carried substantial risk with the wrong person.

For me, yes, my own feelings and inexperience with women is a major vulnerability. And it could be argued that like most men, I have major problems with dealing with that. After all, I've spent a great deal of time and energy denying it, or burying it.

I mean, dating is hard and dangerous enough for a woman. But even after I date someone for a little while, we're still relative strangers. It's a major escalation to even consider submitting to a bondage scenario, even a very light one, because history, dating columns, and crime blotters are full of men who are adept at pretending to be "nice" and then dropping the act. Yeah, I'm a friendly monster, like one of the Muppets. But someone else doesn't know that immediately.

It isn't something I have considered revealing to anyone else. Context or not, I haven't been eager to discuss my virginity openly with Sonia, and I've known her since Clinton. Fetishes are a realm beyond even that. I don't know how I will react to regular sex, much less kink-time outside of text. I see it kind of like a walk before I run situation. And in terms of dating, I haven't even so much as crawled. So, of course, I wind up in a pickle like this.

[inbloomer]

I don't know. I tend to think the people who leave the worst "trails of destruction" behind them are those who are genuinely toxic, abusive, or passive-aggressive, not just confused or maybe repressed. Sometimes people get hung up on the idea that there's not always a right or wrong reason for a breakup. Relationships are mutual things. If one side just isn't feeling it, then it's over. It's tough to grasp when someone's in the middle of it, but that's the simplicity in a nutshell.

This is where most personality characteristics are double-edged. I could have adopted a much more ruthless, 'if you're not delivering value - you're out!' attitude to my personal relationships. If I had, I would have had the satisfaction of dumping and ditching these women long before they dumped me - as I've said before, in all cases there was a point I really knew this wasn't right and should have walked, and carried on trying to make it work. But on the other hand, I wouldn't then have the friendships that have endured for over 30 years, which have all gone through rough patches in their time.  

It's a separate point, but there are various women I've known who I really rate. Thinking about it, the issue with them tended to be that because they were authentic, they weren't going to feign interest in things they had no interest in, so it was harder to create initial chemistry and easier to write them off (as partners) as a bit too different. As I've said, having great chemistry right from the off more indicates the person is just saying whatever you want to hear and doesn't really mean it.

[Enail]

As I've said, having great chemistry right from the off more indicates the person is just saying whatever you want to hear and doesn't really mean it.

Disagree. Everyone I've ever had immediate chemistry with (platonic or romantic) and formed enough of a relationship to learn what they're really like, it's turned out to be because they're my kind of person, and that just stands out right away since most people aren't. That doesn't mean they never land up having traits I don't like or that things always work out with them long-term (or that I never land up forming meaningful relationships for people I don't have that initial chemistry with), but for me, chemistry has always been an accurate read of a certain type of compatibility and sincere mutual connection.  Obviously, that's not true for everyone,and if that's how it generally works out for you I'm not saying that's not the right way for you to look at it for yourself, but I don't think it's correct to say it's generally a sign of "telling you what you want to hear" for everyone.  

I do think it's a good idea to be aware of how chemistry is affecting your judgement of a person, though, and not just trust it blindly. I've never met one of those kinds of people that everyone just instantly likes because they're good at putting on a facade, or at least not one that I had that reaction to beyond a level shallow enough that it was clear to me it wasn't trustworthy, but it does very much seem to be a thing.

[inbloomer]

I understand your point on that. As an example of a facade, one woman I'm particularly thinking of here would, whenever I mentioned something I'd written or was writing (I do a lot of writing), she'd instantly say "Oh, I'd love to see that, can you send it to me?". Which she didn't have to, but I'd then spend ages carefully editing it into a good form for her to see. She'd then write later "I really like that - it's awesome!" - but there was never any specific feedback, such as there would be with someone genuinely fascinated. With hindsight I don't think she was ever reading these things at all.

[Datelessman]

"Chemistry" is one of those things which have been difficult to define more or less since humans started writing things down, specifically because it is very subjective and even fluid based on the expectations of whatever society or social group you're in. I mean, just to be simple, "chemistry" may be different in a straight bar vs. a gay bar, for instance. In sports, they'd call it an "intangible," as in something which is hard to peg down as a stat on paper but "you know it when you see it," like SCOTUS' views on pornography.

That said, I have difficulty believing that it's formed by someone being too nice, or as you (inbloomer) frame it as a kind of "falsely nice." It's also worth noting that being "nice at all times to go along to get along" may be socially ingrained in women, but men can do it, too. DNL often suggests that dudes who go on first dates that go nowhere avoid doing this so they don't seem bland and boring. I mean, theoretically, there's a gulf of distance between "doormat" and "ravenous sexual predator," yet some men fail to get this.

And even "social engraining" is variable. I live in NY, a place where the folks often proudly live up to the stereotype of being rude and/or blunt about feelings. Most of the women I have met have had little problem telling me or anyone where they can shove it if they don't like something. But that's different in other places, or even states, to the point that some folks need translators (i.e. when someone in the south begins or ends a statement with, "Bless your/his/her heart," it means they disapprove). And to be honest, I'm used to that in women, and I'd find it awkward to go somewhere else. I'm not looking for a fawning fan.

"Charisma" is also one of those nebulous terms to me. It's tough to define and can also be socially viable but everyone knows it when they see it. Some people can build an entire life and/or career around it (especially in pro-wrestling or acting). I genuinely believe I have no charisma at all, at least romantically. Sure, I can be a funny guy and provide engaging conversation, but I've never seen that cross the plane into sexual desire. This experience with "Sonia" is tough to use as a counter-example because she's known me about a quarter century and if any dynamic comes close to an example of "white knight syndrome," it may be this one. I mean, if I had about 25 years to get to know every woman I was interested in and was in situations where I was there for them during an emotional and/or financial crisis many times, I am sure I would be a stud muffin with many lovers. But, obviously, no one aside for Doctor Who or Kang has that kind of access to time travel (and it'd be a petty use of it).

I understand your point on that. As an example of a facade, one woman I'm particularly thinking of here would, whenever I mentioned something I'd written or was writing (I do a lot of writing), she'd instantly say "Oh, I'd love to see that, can you send it to me?". Which she didn't have to, but I'd then spend ages carefully editing it into a good form for her to see. She'd then write later "I really like that - it's awesome!" - but there was never any specific feedback, such as there would be with someone genuinely fascinated. With hindsight I don't think she was ever reading these things at all.

At the risk of being hypocritical, even in this example, there's a degree of suspicion here on your part (as opposed to disbelief, which is my problem, though they can overlap). You really have no proof that your friend doesn't read your writing and isn't offering genuine compliments; you just suspect it. It's possible you're right. It's also possible your friend just isn't as skilled at putting words together so she only gives bland compliments. I mean, did you press her for details ("What was your favorite part?")? And was this a reciprocal thing? Like do you read her writing or whatever hobby thing she does? And when you do, do you give extremely detailed responses? I mean, I'll admit sometimes I have given someone a generic compliment about something of theirs I did read or listen to not because I was trying to get out of a chat about it, but because I was tired and/or had a headache.

I mean there is a difference. If I, say, went on a first date with someone I met on OKC and at the end she said, "I had a lot of fun, when can we do this again?" my first Id reaction would be disbelief ("She must be severely mistaken about who I am and/or what fun is"). Suspicion would be, "She's just being nice so I leave her alone or so she can con me," which doesn't initially go into my head.

[inbloomer]

Sorry, not meaning to be difficult but I'm really struggling to see what point you're trying to make in that last post...

(But yes, on her request I looked at creative things she'd done and gave positive, helpful feedback. I didn't try to catch her out because I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Until she abruptly said she'd never liked me and her only regret was not being clearer about her feelings. To which the mental response has to be: fine, but then everything you ever said was a lie. You don't get to choose some things you meant and some you didn't.)

[Hielario]

Inbloomer has kind of a point here. I think "Sonia"'s behaviour might be that she's seeking attention. Think of it, she's bored, lonely, and stuck in a house with difficult people; there are no other men around and it's not like she can go out . So what does she do? Turn to the man on the other aide of the screen that's always there for her. It might not even be fully conscious on her part, women who get labeled as "floozies" often have that kind of personality.

But, of course, this is only a possibility between several. More reason to put the cards on the table and ask her what's going on at once. And if it's just attention, you say that you can't give her what she needs...but there are things that you can give her and attention is one. Provided, of course, she also does nice things for you. Lord knows it could do you good to get used to being told how wonderful you are by a woman who isn't related to you.

Also, honestly? Life is dangerous. I think that, if for some miracle of the stars she's just developed a hankering for her favourite ponytailed manatee's body (now there's an idea for a fursona!) you're better off putting your considerable intellect towards trying to figure out any possible workarounds around her living situation than worrying about consequences. I lost one or two of the few opportunities I had in the beginning because both of us lived with family that was always at home and I was scared of the consequences that the alternatives could bring (or their prices, or the fact that I had never done something like that...). And I will always lament not daring back then.

And another thing that I need to say: forgive me for being so blunt, but, emotionally, she is the one who started this Sure, exercise tact, make her aware of the problems, tell her what you fear, but if it implodes messily, if it means she loses one of her few friendships she has, whatever emotional damage she suffers, in the end it will be her own fault. Not yours.There is a limit to how much you should deprive yourself for others'sake. You have said it yourself before when you mentioned you were tired of being a caretaker. You have a right to enjoy life, too.

I wanna ruin our friendship
We should be lovers instead
I wanna ruin it or save it,
'cause you're truly my dearest friend

[Datelessman]

Thank you both for your perspective. For a minor update we did, finally, have that awkward conversation. I am saving details for a blog post for two reasons; one, to have a topic for another month, and two, to allow some time post-awkward chat to happen to see if things change or what the effects are.

(But yes, on her request I looked at creative things she'd done and gave positive, helpful feedback. I didn't try to catch her out because I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Until she abruptly said she'd never liked me and her only regret was not being clearer about her feelings. To which the mental response has to be: fine, but then everything you ever said was a lie. You don't get to choose some things you meant and some you didn't.)

My initial point was my fearing you were being overly suspicious. But with additional information, yes, I can see why your account of this interaction is the way it is.

Inbloomer has kind of a point here. I think "Sonia"'s behaviour might be that she's seeking attention. Think of it, she's bored, lonely, and stuck in a house with difficult people; there are no other men around and it's not like she can go out . So what does she do? Turn to the man on the other aide of the screen that's always there for her. It might not even be fully conscious on her part, women who get labeled as "floozies" often have that kind of personality.

Without being graphic I can also confirm she is very horny. She's had a long dry spell, at least for regular folks.

But, of course, this is only a possibility between several. More reason to put the cards on the table and ask her what's going on at once. And if it's just attention, you say that you can't give her what she needs...but there are things that you can give her and attention is one. Provided, of course, she also does nice things for you. Lord knows it could do you good to get used to being told how wonderful you are by a woman who isn't related to you.

That part made me snicker because I am not told I am "wonderful" by women I am related to very often, either.   I like to think that the jobs I took as an adult (mostly in call centers but briefly in social work after college) allowed me to turn being yelled at into a profession. Someone wants to tear me a new a-hole for something undeserved? I've worked in call centers for 11 years, man, I've had three dozen a-holes ripped into me. I whistle when I walk.

Yes, she does do nice things for me, though distance does limit it. But she's one of the only people who actually mails me physical birthday cards or Christmas cards, aside for just giving me cheers on Facebook. And this experience is kind of like the fetish kink RP's in a way since it allows a kind of safe exposure to something I am wholly unused to. Like I have said, "Sonia" is extremely blunt and obvious in her affection towards me and I am seeing how I react to those kinds of things. In the long term this is good because a relative stranger will never be so patient or merciful about it (nor should she, frankly). I simply do not expect any woman who I have not known or helped for 25 years to ever be so obvious about this kind of stuff (besides very creepy older women I am not into, like one of my mother's former friends), so it is a good training scenario even from long distance.

My initial response to anything romantically inclined is disbelief. I've been that way since high school and that's changed very little. The main reasoning my disbelief mechanism spits out into my brain is, "she doesn't know you well; she'll reject you the second she's no longer ignorant to what a loser you are." Well, Sonia is immune to that since she's known me so long. There isn't much about me she doesn't know. The only things she really doesn't are my Two Secrets: I am a virgin, and I have that dominant bondage fetish. That's really it, in terms of secrets for me. They're big secrets, admittedly, but there are worse big secrets (i.e. a criminal record, having secret kids/baby mommas, being MAGA, having an STD, etc.). The only problem is for someone who doesn't know me well, they are also the secrets that 99% of all serial killers have. Sonia's known me forever and therefore knows I am not a serial killer.

Unfortunately, I have learned that when my disbelief hardware is futzed with, my responses are awkward as hell. I've had to tell her a few times, "You've said nothing wrong. I am just a bit of a robot" in so many words. And yes, women find adorkable robots sexy when they look like The Vision (or otherwise are fictional characters portrayed by professional and charismatic actors). But seldom in real life.

But, yes, it is an opportunity for some experience points in some very very very basic stuff, like flattery. And I have also learned that I have a very difficult time exposing any vulnerabilities even with an old friend, which is very much a me-problem I have to deal with. It does present a bit of a role reversal since historically I've been her unofficial therapist. Of course then I fret about things getting unethical.

Unfortunately, I am also wondering if being a caretaker and seeing things like walkers in so many stressful and harsh environments can make those kinds of things triggering on an almost PTSD level for me. I've always prided myself on being willing to date or sleep with someone handicapped, but every now and then I have pause and I hate that about myself. But the idea of never escaping that kind of stuff even visually is itself stressful. It is not Sonia's fault that she got sick, and she's taken all of the traumas in her life surprisingly well. I've seen dudes become monsters for maybe ten percent of what she endured.

Also, honestly? Life is dangerous. I think that, if for some miracle of the stars she's just developed a hankering for her favourite ponytailed manatee's body (now there's an idea for a fursona!) you're better off putting your considerable intellect towards trying to figure out any possible workarounds around her living situation than worrying about consequences. I lost one or two of the few opportunities I had in the beginning because both of us lived with family that was always at home and I was scared of the consequences that the alternatives could bring (or their prices, or the fact that I had never done something like that...). And I will always lament not daring back then.

That's mostly been done. The main problem for the moment is my mother's health considering he cancer and all. Leaving her unattended for more than a day or two is mostly untenable. I also cannot be honest with her about why I would be away that long, because she would proceed to do the same thing she always does when I tell her something personal: judge, criticize, and then bring it up every time she wants to make a point in some argument or lecture. Being a virgin has one advantage; it gives my mother one less thing to talk to me about. She can't criticize my love life much if I have none. I joke that my mother is like the police; anything I say can and will be used against me.

I try not to think about the reason why I always imagine women to be unreasonably cruel and uncompromising because my mother often treats me that way. For one example, I hadn't realized that she'd convinced me that any question I ask someone was "stupid" until I had my first job after college and I prefaced every question I had with a co-worker as "stupid question" and the co-worker finally asked, "why do you think all of your questions are stupid?" I didn't answer why, but I stopped.

I won't say that my dynamic with my mother is exactly like Owen and Mrs. Lift from 1987's "THROW MOMMA FROM THE TRAIN," especially since I harbor no dark fantasies, but give it another decade or two.

A lot of women complain that men are just looking for another mother figure in their lives. I am not, in any uncertain terms, looking for another mother.

And another thing that I need to say: forgive me for being so blunt, but, emotionally, she is the one who started this Sure, exercise tact, make her aware of the problems, tell her what you fear, but if it implodes messily, if it means she loses one of her few friendships she has, whatever emotional damage she suffers, in the end it will be her own fault. Not yours.There is a limit to how much you should deprive yourself for others'sake. You have said it yourself before when you mentioned you were tired of being a caretaker. You have a right to enjoy life, too.

I wanna ruin our friendship
We should be lovers instead
I wanna ruin it or save it,
'cause you're truly my dearest friend

You're not wrong; she did certainly start this. I don't fault her for being desperate and really needing something positive in her life.

[inbloomer]

Just wondering if there's been any update on this situation? Looking back at the thread, I thought Hielario's advice was good. I would add that (in general, not specific to this) if you ask someone out and her response is an angry "I thought this was a friendship! You should have been clearer about your intentions!", there would have been no winning with that person. If you'd asked her out at the start, she would have claimed that friendship must come first and so on...

[Datelessman]

Just wondering if there's been any update on this situation? Looking back at the thread, I thought Hielario's advice was good. I would add that (in general, not specific to this) if you ask someone out and her response is an angry "I thought this was a friendship! You should have been clearer about your intentions!", there would have been no winning with that person. If you'd asked her out at the start, she would have claimed that friendship must come first and so on...

I did just post the update.

https://datelessman.wordpress.com/2024/08/05/dateless-man-vs-an-awkward-conversation-with-a-lady-friend-the-aftermath/

[Enail]

Hey, it sounds like you've been handling things with her really well! It also sounds like your mom is not just domineering and ungrateful, but seriously emotionally abusive. I agree that seems likely to be part of where some of your internalized ideas about women stem from, and it also seems like it's made it hard for you to envision successfully setting boundaries other than by keeping people out altogether.

And the combination of the two is not only making this harder for you, it's also putting you more at risk of causing your friend the harm you're worried about than your inexperience or any of the other many things you worry about are. I've said plenty about your views on women before so I won't repeat myself on that part, but I want to touch on the caretaking bit.

Your friend is managing her life without your caretaking, even if it's difficult. She's using delivery services and has other people who can help bring her stuff - she's managing! - and she would still have those things even if you got into a relationship with her. And if you didn't try to take on that role for her it would be not only be okay, it would actively be better for the both of you.  People who become disabled in adulthood get robbed of so much independence and respect by not just their own bodies but also the world, so it can really hurt for a friend to not trust you to do things yourself or to insist on helping when that's not what you want. It's not your job to save her, and that's not what she's inviting you to do.

But also, your wants and needs and wellbeing matter too. Caretaking is hellishly hard even when the person being taken care of is not abusive, and it's 100% something people need breaks from and outside support for, no matter how unselfish they are or how strong.  It's natural you're burned out and traumatized from having spent decades looking after someone who treats you so poorly. It's okay if that means a relationship with your friend is not for you - though from the conversation you describe with her, it sounds like she might be someone you could have a relationship with that's not caretaking-oriented but rather mutually supportive and with strong boundaries to prevent taking on a role you're not okay with. Boundaries are genuinely a kindness and a mark of respect.

On the subject of boundaries, I really hope you can develop some with your mom that will let you protect your well-being and live your life. Even if you intend to keep being her caregiver, even if she sacrificed some things for you (which, unlike you, is something a parent signs on to  for) you don't owe her a life of sacrifice, an accounting of your decisions, or never taking a vacation. Delivery services exist, a week's worth of groceries can be bought in advance, and so on.  I also hear good things about the Grey Rock technique for handling unreasonable family members.

You've grown up with and been living with someone abusive for a really long time and it's affecting you so much. I know therapy may not be on the table, but please at least look into books about recovering from emotional abuse and the like to help you find ways to heal and live your own life, because things can be so much better than they are for you right now.

I hope things keep going well on the Sonia front, however you decide you want "going well" to be. To me it sounds like you could have a good thing there.

[inbloomer]

Thanks for the update. I second what Enail says on the issues with your mother, that however difficult and multi-layered it will be, that needs tackling.

With Sonia, I don't feel qualified to make a recommendation but you clearly see the complexity of the situation and that it's not a slam dunk either way. Well done though for actually having the awkward conversation and getting some fairly solid answers out of it. Any time I've tried to initiate one, the woman involved has always treated it like a police interview ("no comment ... no comment ... no comment"), i.e. her sole priority has been to avoid any kind of vulnerability or liability, so whatever happens from now I think you have made progress.

[Datelessman]

Thank you both for your kind and intelligent replies. Some of the blog topics/thread topics have not been easy for me.

I hadn't expected to go on a 2+ paragraph tirade about my mother in my last entry but blog posts are not narrative projects so they sometimes can seem like "free association," and it came up as I typed and went over the logistical issues and whatnot. I have tried not to blame my mother, or any individual person, for the lack of success in my love life or other areas. It's cliche and inaccurate and it avoids taking responsibility.

That said, anyone who had read my blog or some of my comments over the years could argue I have "taken responsibility" by using a lot of negative self-talk. I've mulled over a response here and since I do want to lesson my text walls beyond the Entertainment Joys topic (since I do genuinely find joy in typing about geeky stuff), I will say I have contemplated doing a blog entry hashing out whatever resentments or whatever I have regarding my mother. While it would be wrong to blame everything on her, it could be argued that blaming none of it on her is also inaccurate. I just...don't want to be a guy who blames everything on his mother. That's the first detail of the "toxic man" starter pack.

Your words about managing caretaking and boundaries with "Sonia," Enail, are very thoughtful. In general you are very kind, wise, and thoughtful. I've interacted with you a ton over the years and I can profess you have the patience of a saint with a lot of less than sympathetic people (mostly toxic, straight men) online. I do appreciate it and I hope the folks in your life do, too.

You absolutely have a point that becoming handicapped often means a loss of dignity, self-esteem, and all sorts of things. I can wholly admit to sometimes wanting to "help" or "protect" another person so much that I dismiss what they actually say and run with my own conclusions, which can often be wrong or at least exaggerated. I.E. worrying about Sonia wanting me to declare a vow of marriage long distance when for the moment she is just sending sexts and asking me to be DTF as a possibility, at most.

Of course, dismissing what a woman (or any lover) actually says is another check in that toxic dude starter pack to watch for. To paraphrase an old saying, the origin behind many a jerk has usually involved good intentions. If I wanted to be generous, I would say it is because I want to do the right thing no matter what. If I wanted to be critical, I could admit that I do have what at least two people (not Sonia) have called a condescending streak. I have a belief that I know better than someone else, even when I don't or can't. It was a tendency which likely only got worse when I had to rely on domineering conversations to do sales calls at call centers for over 7 years. I literally earned a living talking over people and acting like I knew everything. Not saying it was born there, but it didn't help.

It does help, at least in this regard, that I do not want to be Sonia's caretaker. Not that I do not care, but I am reaching burnout with my mother and I am not eager to leapfrog onto another immediately. Especially one which is not plutonic. I basically did it for two people during the last years of grandma's life and it is a drain. So even my tendency to act like Captain Know It All is grounded by the fact that being "right" would mean doing what I do not want to do.

Sonia's esteem is shot. I spend a lot of our conversations bucking her up. I realize that a lot of toxic men probably sense her vulnerability a mile away (as I can, from actual miles away, via an online conversation) and take advantage of her until things go south. That's sometimes why I hesitate when advice columnists say things like, "the only common denominator is you" when it is an objective fact that dudes have almost made exploiting vulnerable women into a career option which is socially embraced, defended, and lauded. I'm not saying Sonia is flawless or blameless in some of her own troubles but it's also not rare to run into a train of toxic lovers.

So, yes, I do understand what she has been telling me, that she wants me to at least be open minded towards sleeping with her even on a FWB basis, is not nothing. From her position it is very appealing. She's not been shy about how appealing it is. Plus, from a practical standpoint she's been on a sex drought for health/life reasons. I sometimes have to remind myself that not everyone is a virginal monk like me. For normal people, even going a few months without sex is a chore. For me, it's summer.

I am trying to navigate this without closing myself or Sonia off to certain possibilities. It could be argued that worrying about how things might be post-coitus with her is one of those "borrowing trouble from the future" things DNL talks about. And not only am I not 100% responsible for how another person reacts to something, it would be creepy if I was. Who wants to be Purple Man, at least outside an incel chatroom?

I am sorry about some of those conversations you've had, inbloomer. The caveat between Sonia and I is that we have known each other a very long time. We don't know everything about each other but we know a lot. We've interacted a lot online and in person over the course of over 20 years. That is not an easy situation to duplicate. Similar conversations with relative strangers might not go so well for me.

[Enail]

Aw, thanks, Datelessman!

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