Consent and nightclubs

[Kiskadee]

Hello, thanks for setting up a new forum! I was hoping you all could clarify what is appropriate behavior at a nightclub.

I went with a new friend (who I don't know well) to a queer nightclub event last weekend (I'm lesbian). When my friend left and was in line for the bathroom, a woman pulled me away and asked to kiss me, I stupidly agreed, and she ended up touching me in a way I was not at all comfortable with from a stranger. I found it extremely unpleasant, and ended up not being able to enjoy the night. I don't do hookups, not even kissing until this time. I know I should have reinforced my boundaries more clearly and/or not been drinking, but was this normal? I have not had this happen before when going out, although I was dressed rather suggestively this time.

I can't imagine touching a woman without being extremely clear that she wanted me to, and wish I would be treated with the same respect. But what constitutes clear consent in these settings? Was it implied from the setting that her behavior was okay?

[Lemminkainen]

It sounds like she asked you to do a specific thing, you agreed, and then she went way beyond that. You were having a dialogue about what was okay, and she went beyond the terms you laid out. You didn't do anything that implied consent to that, and what she did was not okay.

[Enail]

In addition to what Lemminkainen said, the fact that you were in a nightclub and the fact that you were drinking don't make the slightest difference to whether it was okay. That's not your fault!

More generally, I'm not much of a clubber, so Uninformed Opinion Alert, but I don't think that even asking to kiss a stranger if you haven't been interacting in any way (dancing, eyeing each other up, chatting) is terribly usual. It strikes me as a little off, like maybe she was actively looking to take you by surprise. Sorry that happened to you.

ETA: For your future comfort, you might want to ask your friends if that particular club has a reputation for that kind of atmosphere, and if that is the norm there, maybe look for some different queer clubs that are not known for being so assault-y (if your city is large enough to have multiple queer clubs, that is). I really doubt it is, but you never know.[/quote]

[Kiskadee]

Thanks for the support, guys. I didn't want to talk about it with my friend at the time - she grew up in this large, gay-friendly city and I feel like she wouldn't understand where I'm coming from having had a very sheltered, christian upbringing in a rural town.

More generally, I'm not much of a clubber, so Uninformed Opinion Alert, but I don't think that even asking to kiss a stranger if you haven't been interacting in any way (dancing, eyeing each other up, chatting) is terribly usual. It strikes me as a little off, like maybe she was actively looking to take you by surprise. Sorry that happened to you.

[/quote]

I left out part of the story for brevity: she said hello early, convinced me to drink more, and left. Once the booze settled it and my friend left, she came back and danced with me for a bit before pulling me away from where we were and asking to kiss me. But now that I write that out it actually sounds more predatory that way, so I don't know.

[UristMcBunny]

That does sound pretty predatory, actually. The "convincing you to drink more" especially, as that is part of the modus operandi of a lot of predatory people. Yikes!

[SadisticToaster]

but was this normal?  

Yes - but just because something's normal, doesn't mean it's right. "Yes means Yes" is still quite a new concept - a lot of people in the real world will keep pushing boundries until they get a "No", which sounds like the lady you met.

Having said that : the fact that she waited for your friend to go away before she reapproached pushes her towards the 'creepy predator' category for me.

[BasedBuzzed]

It's a combo of signs that makes a person sketchy. Offering someone a drink and making one or two remarks when they're on the fence whether it's a good idea? Happens pretty often. Waiting for someone's friend to go away before asking them to dance? Shyness, not wanting to intrude on friends, plenty of plausible explanations. A hand rubs a thigh or pinches a buttock during a makeout session? Both guys and gals do this in an attempt to escalate. But your discomfort and weirded-outness should have been plenty visible in the lead-up to anyone paying actual attention, and she wasn't doing that. Thus, the moment a person starts raising more flags, trust your instincts. Club business-as-usual does not trump individual boundaries.

[Enail]

Yeah, this is sounding more and more like it was intentional and predatory.

What a lousy thing to experience! If it's any reassurance to you, I don't think this is something that you should expect as just part of some horrible norm of queer clubs in cities - I've never encountered anything like that, and I've never heard of any friends or friends of friends (who are/have been more active clubbers) running into that sort of behavior either.

Don't feel like you have to overrule your own judgement or preferences so as not to seem uncool or rural or whatever. Even if that was the norm in that particular circle ( ), any reasonably lgbtq-friendly city of a reasonable size is going to have more than one queer social circle with (very, very) different norms.

[Conreezy]

Don't feel like you have to overrule your own judgement or preferences so as not to seem uncool or rural or whatever. Even if that was the norm in that particular circle ( pale), any reasonably lgbtq-friendly city of a reasonable size is going to have more than one queer social circle with (very, very) different norms.

The few times I've been in gay clubs, I was quite struck by the boldness.  Straight up asking to make out happened much more often there than I've ever seen in straight clubs.  Maybe it was only semi-serious, but I heard a lot of "You're cute. Want to make out?"  Mostly guys did this, but occasionally women did the same.  

I don't think anyone went beyond what they asked for.  Breaking barriers like that is not cool.  And this was just what I saw, which doesn't prove anything.

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