Re: Feels, friends & shizzle [rant?/advice/disc]

[Guest]

The thing I think you should focus on more is actually not so much the asking, but on your behaviour AFTER you do the asking.  Asking isn't creepy.  It just isn't.  Even if you don't believe it, pretend you do .  

"I'm not like them, but I can pretend [...] " - Kurt Cobain

All right, I shall at the very least pretend, or repress, or something. :3

So, what you want to do is ask simply.  Ask without making it into this big thing.  Be really darn casual about it. "Hey intern, I was wondering if I could take you out on a date sometime."  And then be darn casual in however she responds:

Hmmm, looks to be how I've done it before. Sounds simple enough.

The key is really preserving the casualness of friendship within the context of asking someone out.  I'm not saying inside you won't be all freaking out, I'm just saying do a little play acting.  Just be kind and relaxed.  Don't make it a big deal.  And continue to have a conversation afterwords.  The after conversation makes any awkwardness a lot less of a big deal and you can both hide behind "thoughts on the latest Wes Anderson movie" or whathaveyou.

 

That I think will be the toughest part. D: But I think I'm smart/quick enough to move to a different subject.

Also if she does react over the top and is mean and nasty to you, that says way more about her than you.  Trust me.  I highly doubt she will from your descriptions, so if she does it means there's this whole other part of your personality you nothing about and maybe it's okay to not date her after all.

Also correct, I don't think she'd blow up or be nasty and/or cruel. We both know what we've been through over the last year & junk so I don't think she'd be too mean to me if she did end up turning me down.

Thanks guys, I always appreciate the input! Additional input is also welcome always.

HAH! Yeah, not a ton of women who'd appreciate that approach, so don't go straight to pants-tightening. "I'd like to take you on a date sometime" is as complicated and detailed as it needs to be. OneTrueGuest's advice is good: keep it SO VERY casual, treat it like the not-big-deal it can indeed be, and (important!) just continue being friendly towards her, regardless of the outcome.

I'm always friendly. :3 The girl I went on a date with is still friendly towards me and I towards her, for example. So it'll be fine.

GOD MIKEY HOW ARE YOU SO NICE? I must reiterate that, from what you post here, your extreme good-naturedness is a delight.

Oh, thank you. I rarely ever feel contempt for anyone on a personal level unless they've screwed me over or have offended me or have done some sort of harm to me or someone I know close to me, etc. Not many have done anything like that towards me, so I don't have much of a reason to hate anyone or be a dick to anyone. Even growing up I didn't feel a need or reason to talk back to my parents or teachers. I just did my thing and kept outta trouble, sure I cause a liiiittle mischief, but nothing major. I was like The Dude, I .would abide and take it easy.

[nonA]

Obligatory link.

Next time you're together, reach for her hand or motion her over for a snuggle or something. I know it's popular around these parts to say "use your words", so here are three of mine. Actions speak louder.

[Guest]

I'm definitely with you there on Actions Speak Louder, I'm always willing to touch now that I realized it's ok to touch too. The time I hungout with her before Christmas I was a little cold (she lives close to the beach and it was raining) we were on her couch and she was sitting cross-legged and I put my head on her thigh as she edited on her MacBook. She didn't seem to mind much.

Then on Christmas before I left, we hugged good bye and I picked her up and spun her around in my hug. I felt her lift up her ankles as I spun... she also didn't seem to mind. :3

[OneTrueGuest]

All very good signs!

But the thing with actions speak louder is that may be so, but what precisely are they saying? I think people use actions often so that they don't have to be direct, so that they have an excuse to say the other person was misinterpreting etc. I mean, I've cuddled with a guy in his bed before and still had no idea if he was into me (finally asked him and he said no so . . . once again, you get where I come from when it comes to assuming guys don't want me unless they tell me). I think a straightforward asking out is what is needed now. You've tested the waters. They are warm. Time to dive in.

[nonA]

And this is where we'll have to agree to vehemently disagree. Imprecise language is often frustrating (also often deliberate), but it wouldn't be that way if people didn't keep using it as such. They use it like that for a very good reason. Trying to interrogate a paramour like a research psychologist or hammer out specifics like a lawyer is a great way to kill the mood. And plant yourself firmly in uncanny valley territory.

Mikey. Next time you're with her, make a move and kiss her. Thinking of yourself as "a good boy" sounds like a puppy. The longer you have the attitude of a nonsexual, neutered animal, the harder it'll be for her to see you as anything else.

[reboot]

And this is where we'll have to agree to vehemently disagree.  Imprecise language is often frustrating (also often deliberate), but it wouldn't be that way if people didn't keep using it as such.  They use it like that for a very good reason.  Trying to interrogate a paramour like a research psychologist or hammer out specifics like a lawyer is a great way to kill the mood.  And plant yourself firmly in uncanny valley territory.

Mikey.  Next time you're with her, make a move and kiss her.  Thinking of yourself as "a good boy" sounds like a puppy.  The longer you have the attitude of a nonsexual, neutered animal, the harder it'll be for her to see you as anything else.

NonA, do you not think it might be a good idea for him to ask her on a date? He is at the point where he is comfortable with touch, but afraid to ask her out for fear she will say no.

Touch and words are not mutually exclusive and relying only on one or the other or the other leads to greater ambiguity than combining them.

[OneTrueGuest]

And considering guys will be wonderfully affectionate but never actually ask you out, women can be kind of suspicious if a guy is interested in a proper dating like situation or just hooking up.

You and I will have to vehemently disagree. But I will point out, I'm a woman. And other women are agreeing with me, and maybe just maybe The Mikey should listen to what the women here are saying they'd prefer.

[nonA]

While my experience has been that there's often little relation between what people say they want/think they want, and what they actually respond well to.

I fully encourage everybody to try different things and see what works well for them. I just think it bears mentioning that a world full of soft nos one has to be mindful of is also chock full of soft yeses.

[OneTrueGuest]

True.  But quite frankly at this point, considering his situation and his physical history with the girl, I think it's time to use his words.

Btw, just because a girl lets you kiss her doesn't mean she wants to date you.  Just because a guy puts his arm around a girl, doesn't mean he wants to date her either.  I honestly don't see where the confusion lies is simply using the words: "Can I take you out on a date?"  Are you saying the issue is her subsequent response?  Honestly, anything other than a straight up "yes" should be taken as a "no".  

But whatever man, you do you.  I'll do me.  I guess not using your words works for you, but it has consistently fucked me over, so I will trust straightforward honesty any day of the week. (and as a cool byproduct it also means I only ever end up dating guys who are really good at communicating. Never had any weird situations where the two of us thought we were on the same page but totally weren't. Man, communication is just swell.)

[Guest]

And this is where we'll have to agree to vehemently disagree.  Imprecise language is often frustrating (also often deliberate), but it wouldn't be that way if people didn't keep using it as such.  They use it like that for a very good reason.  Trying to interrogate a paramour like a research psychologist or hammer out specifics like a lawyer is a great way to kill the mood.  And plant yourself firmly in uncanny valley territory.

Mikey.  Next time you're with her, make a move and kiss her.  Thinking of yourself as "a good boy" sounds like a puppy.  The longer you have the attitude of a nonsexual, neutered animal, the harder it'll be for her to see you as anything else.

I dunno if I'll make a move to kiss her. I mean, she knows I'm sexual to a degree, I've expressed to her my concerns about my virginity. Heh, I remember one time I was struggling to take a prop sax case outta my Jeep and I see her getting out of her car too, so me being a silly man I am, I made it look like I was humping the case. She started laughing.

NonA, do you not think it might be a good idea for him to ask her on a date? He is at the point where he is comfortable with touch, but afraid to ask her out for fear she will say no.

Touch and words are not mutually exclusive and relying only on one or the other or the other leads to greater ambiguity than combining them.

I'm of the belief to use both actions and words interchangeably, a 50/50 so to speak. But you're right, I am comfy with touch. :3

And considering guys will be wonderfully affectionate but never actually ask you out, women can be kind of suspicious if a guy is interested in a proper dating like situation or just hooking up.

You and I will have to vehemently disagree.  But I will point out, I'm a woman.  And other women are agreeing with me, and maybe just maybe The Mikey should listen to what the women here are saying they'd prefer.

Yeah I typically try to be empathetic towards women so I listen to what the ladies (and the Doc) here say a lot. So I'll prolly ask her out sometime soon.

While my experience has been that there's often little relation between what people say they want/think they want, and what they actually respond well to.

I fully encourage everybody to try different things and see what works well for them.  I just think it bears mentioning that a world full of soft nos one has to be mindful of is also chock full of soft yeses.

I'm always willing to try something different, I just don't want to get slapped in the face lol.

[OneTrueGuest]

For the record, I don't think you'd be slapped in the face by this girl if you tried to kiss her.  My advice has only ever geared towards if you want to date her.  Maybe with a view for something even more realtionship-y, I believe it makes sense to use your words.  Especially if you are concerned with maintaining the friendship regardless of the outcome.  If you just want to see if you can get with her casually (which isn't a bad thing, btw), a more in the moment physical thing, nonA makes a point about being more physical with her.  I'm just trying to offer advice based on what you've said your specific situation is.  If I've misinterpreted anything, please do take my advice with a grain of salt .

[eselle28]

<mod hat on>I think it might be best if this conversation steered away from debating whether people are honest with themselves and others about what they want and focused more specifically on Mikey's situation. This applies particularly to community members who have been asked to avoid that line of argument in the past.<mod hat off>

[Guest]

For the record, I don't think you'd be slapped in the face by this girl if you tried to kiss her.  My advice has only ever geared towards if you want to date her.  Maybe with a view for something even more realtionship-y, I believe it makes sense to use your words.  Especially if you are concerned with maintaining the friendship regardless of the outcome.  If you just want to see if you can get with her casually (which isn't a bad thing, btw), a more in the moment physical thing, nonA makes a point about being more physical with her.  I'm just trying to offer advice based on what you've said your specific situation is.  If I've misinterpreted anything, please do take my advice with a grain of salt .

Honestly, I'd like to have both. So I'm willing to try both.

I do indeed have pantsfeelings for her and I wouldn't mind dating her either.

[nonA]

Let's step back a second. Dating requires some level of reciprocal pantsfeels on her end. You're not likely to have much success if you stick to an abstract level and ignore the bit about making her feel all tingly about you. Acting like it's an either/or proposition leads to you ignoring if not outright sabotaging the attraction-building parts. Go re-read the main site archives to realize why you don't want to do that.

There are, however, several perfectly valid reasons that she might not be interested in dating even if she's down for the occasional smooching*. Her life may be too crowded, she may have a big move coming up and not want to feel tied down, she wants to enjoy singlehood after recently getting out of a LTR - life happens, serious dating can get time- and energy intensive, and some people have other priorities. Those priorities won't necessarily preclude the occasional sloppy makeout session, but someone saying "sorry, I'm not in a good place for a relationship right now" is unlikely to mention that part.

*(N.B: "Smooching" here doesn't necessarily mean anything more than just smooching. One of the big problems when you talk about anything physical is that people always seem to mentally round up to sex. This is one of the reasons that trying to get by on words has a decent chance of falling flat. Significant risk that people assume that too many things are just euphemisms for "wanna bang?")

Which is why I say to just go in for the kiss. It's a physical way of saying "I like you. Do you like me? (Y/N)" If she doesn't respond well, asking for an explicit date probably wouldn't have fared any better. If she does respond well, that kind of implies she'd be down for more of the same next time you get together. You can make a point of explicitly calling it a date if you like, but the title will just be formality.

And "dating" doesn't really mean anything more than "have been regularly going on dates with them", likely with expectations to do so more in the future. I understand the temptation to try and jump-start the process by making things official earlier. But personally speaking, you're better off focusing on the here and now instead of making promises about how you hope to feel down the line.

[Guest]

Let's step back a second.  Dating requires some level of reciprocal pantsfeels on her end.  You're not likely to have much success if you stick to an abstract level and ignore the bit about making her feel all tingly about you.  Acting like it's an either/or proposition leads to you ignoring if not outright sabotaging the attraction-building parts.  Go re-read the main site archives to realize why you don't want to do that.

No shit. /SgtHartman

I think reciprocal pantsfeels is required for any sort of romance and/or make-outs unless we're all drunk as hell. I don't even know what the attraction-building parts are unless you mean I should be demonstrating that I like her and would like her ankles on my shoulders. Well which entries of the archive should I read?

There are, however, several perfectly valid reasons that she might not be interested in dating even if she's down for the occasional smooching*.  Her life may be too crowded, she may have a big move coming up and not want to feel tied down, she wants to enjoy singlehood after recently getting out of a LTR - life happens, serious dating can get time- and energy intensive, and some people have other priorities.  Those priorities won't necessarily preclude the occasional sloppy makeout session, but someone saying "sorry, I'm not in a good place for a relationship right now" is unlikely to mention that part.

I understand if she doesn't wanna date, if she's cool with being a FWB, I'm cool with that too. Whatever she's cool with I'll be cool with, I can't get mad at her for making a choice that doesn't involve me just like she can't get mad at me if I try to date another girl.

Which is why I say to just go in for the kiss.  It's a physical way of saying "I like you.  Do you like me? (Y/N)"  If she doesn't respond well, asking for an explicit date probably wouldn't have fared any better.  If she does respond well, that kind of implies she'd be down for more of the same next time you get together.  You can make a point of explicitly calling it a date if you like, but the title will just be formality.

Don't think I didn't think about it the few times I did spend time alone with her. But again, I've never been sure how it would be received, so I'm a little wary of tossing it out there. I know the Doc's said "There is no perfect moment, just the one you make", but still that's a bold fuckin' move. Especially when I'm a scrub that hasn't actually kissed a girl on the lips, I've only ever kissed one on the head which gave her a bit of pang of anxiety.

And "dating" doesn't really mean anything more than "have been regularly going on dates with them", likely with expectations to do so more in the future.  I understand the temptation to try and jump-start the process by making things official earlier.  But personally speaking, you're better off focusing on the here and now instead of making promises about how you hope to feel down the line.

Yeah I know about that. Go on dates for awhile before defining the relationship, as they say.

[nonA]

Search is buggered for me now, but try a site search with the keyword "momentum". There's some real truth to the idea of the friendzone, but it's not about evil women who cruelly withhold their affections. It's about guys who decide to signal "safe" over things like "interesting" or "sexual", and then get frustrated when that's exactly how they're seen. Best related article I could find is this.

(While I was looking, I did see an interesting line in an article that had a few good points, but that also touched on bunches of other things so wasn't really topical here; "Plus, let’s be honest. Just about every girl in the bar knows damn good and well that you’re hoping that they’ll come over and ask to see what you’re working on. And this is telling them that you don’t have the guts to go up to them and introduce yourself." It's not that women can tell these things because of their magical intuition powers. It's that your average woman has a functioning theory of mind.)

Specifics on kissing is easier to dig up. This account has some slightly advanced factors, but they're ones you don't have to deal with in your current situation. It does nicely cover the benefits of just making a move instead of hemming and hawing and killing the moment by talking things to death.

This covers mechanics and this covers timing (and read the last section at the bottom of that one), but trying to keep the formula in your head in the moment will only serve to throw you off your game. When your face is in the close vicinity of her face and there's a lull in the activity, just put your lips on hers and keep them there for a moment. What comes next depends on her reaction, so there's no simple "how to do this" flowchart.

If it works out well, awesome. If the situation turns out awkward, back off gracefully. And if the moment is nice but the mechanics feel awkward, there's nothing wrong with admitting that this is your first time doing this. (We can debate this in general, but if she thinks your V-card is praiseworthy, you can expect this to be a reasonably safe move.) There are times when words are handier than an extended game of charades. It's just that in this specific instance, you need a kick in the ass to go ahead and start doing.

[OneTrueGuest]

I do indeed have pantsfeelings for her and I wouldn't mind dating her either.

Well, I mean, you should have pantsfeelings for her if you want to date her too.  I hope you aren't creating this false dichotomy of "sex" vs "dating".  Kind of a virgin or whore thing.  The woman you date and ultimately have a long term relationship with you should also want to be physically intimate with. And the same for her with you .

As for the "debate" with nonA.  I can't really say anything more than I have.  In my personal experience, being physical establishes nothing more than in that moment the person wanted to be physical with you.  Which, if that's all you want, is perfect!  But it doesn't mean you are automatically an item, that the other person is remotely interested in dating, etc.  And in my personal experience, and after witnessing many personal experiences of my friends, being physical is often used to hide the true feelings of the people involved.  Results in confusion.  In hours of conversation of "Does he/she really like me?"  Ultimately a conversation will have to happen at some point to establish what's going on, so I guess I'm all why not get it over with asap?  I will always love words when it comes to establishing what's going on between two people.  Now does that mean I don't like the physical part of a relationship?  Uh, no that's not that what that means.  It simply means I don't worry about what the guy is really thinking, can actually relax into the physical stuff, and know I'm not being used. (I should note, being aware what the other person is thinking is not necessarily we're dating, it could be also be we're FWB.  It's just that I know what we are and am cool with it) Again, if this is just a drunken party makeout, that's very different.  But if it's with a well established friend who I hang out a lot with?  I really prefer to know what things mean.  Again, maybe nonA has never been burned in the past, and quite honestly yes I'm happy for him that he hasn't, but I'm also mildly jealous of that.  Because man have I been burned.  So them's my final thoughts on the debate.

Ultimately, you know the girl and your situation best, The Mikey.  You do what you think makes the most sense![/quote]

[Mel]

What you're ignoring, nonA, is that Mikey doesn't have a whole lot of romantic/sexual experience and is also quite anxious about doing the wrong thing and offending his friend, something he's stated repeatedly right here in this thread as his primary problem. Using escalating touch and evaluating whether the responses you're getting are positive enough to be a "yes" to continuing to escalate/go in for a kiss involves a lot more subtlety and uncertainty than simply asking a yes or no question. It sounds to me like it would probably be a lot easier and less anxiety-inducing for Mikey to ask her out directly rather than to try to interpret physical signals and make a move with no overt romantic context... and surely you would agree that a much less anxious guy is more likely to come across as appealing than a very anxious guy? Which isn't even getting into the problem that Mikey's concerns are likely to lead him to underestimate how interested she appears and so if he goes for a more subtle route he's much more likely to assume a no when she actually would have said yes.

I'm sure there are some women who prefer a physical approach over a verbal one. There are also women, including me and others who have commented before, who prefer a verbal expression of interest first (and who aren't just ideally imagining we prefer it but know it from the actual emotions we've experienced when related scenarios have actually occurred in our lives). And there are plenty of women, I'm sure, who'll respond fine to both. I suspect right now Mikey would be best off with a woman who's at least okay with, if not preferring, direct communication, for his own sake. And I really don't think it's helpful for you to push a one size fits all approach of "this is always the best way to make a romantic move" without considering the feelings and personality not just of the variety of women out there, but especially of the individual guy you're talking to.

[Guest]

Search is buggered for me now, but try a site search with the keyword "momentum".  There's some real truth to the idea of the friendzone, but it's not about evil women who cruelly withhold their affections.  It's about guys who decide to signal "safe" over things like "interesting" or "sexual", and then get frustrated when that's exactly how they're seen.  Best related article I could find is this.

(While I was looking, I did see an interesting line in an article that had a few good points, but that also touched on bunches of other things so wasn't really topical here; "Plus, let’s be honest. Just about every girl in the bar knows damn good and well that you’re hoping that they’ll come over and ask to see what you’re working on. And this is telling them that you don’t have the guts to go up to them and introduce yourself."  It's not that women can tell these things because of their magical intuition powers.  It's that your average woman has a functioning theory of mind.)

Specifics on kissing is easier to dig up.  This account has some slightly advanced factors, but they're ones you don't have to deal with in your current situation.  It does nicely cover the benefits of just making a move instead of hemming and hawing and killing the moment by talking things to death.

This covers mechanics and this covers timing (and read the last section at the bottom of that one), but trying to keep the formula in your head in the moment will only serve to throw you off your game.  When your face is in the close vicinity of her face and there's a lull in the activity, just put your lips on hers and keep them there for a moment.  What comes next depends on her reaction, so there's no simple "how to do this" flowchart.

If it works out well, awesome.  If the situation turns out awkward, back off gracefully.  And if the moment is nice but the mechanics feel awkward, there's nothing wrong with admitting that this is your first time doing this.  (We can debate this in general, but if she thinks your V-card is praiseworthy, you can expect this to be a reasonably safe move.)  There are times when words are handier than an extended game of charades.  It's just that in this specific instance, you need a kick in the ass to go ahead and start doing.

Looks like I got some reading ahead of me. D:

Well, I mean, you should have pantsfeelings for her if you want to date her too.  I hope you aren't creating this false dichotomy of "sex" vs "dating".  Kind of a virgin or whore thing.  The woman you date and ultimately have a long term relationship with you should also want to be physically intimate with. And the same for her with you .

I'm not 100% sure on what you mean here, are you saying they interchangeable or not mutually exclusive of one another? Or wut? I mean, of course I'd sexually attracted to someone I wanna date, otherwise that's partially as to why I wouldn't wanna date them in the first place too, I don't think.

As for the "debate" with nonA.  I can't really say anything more than I have.  In my personal experience, being physical establishes nothing more than in that moment the person wanted to be physical with you.  Which, if that's all you want, is perfect!  But it doesn't mean you are automatically an item, that the other person is remotely interested in dating, etc.  And in my personal experience, and after witnessing many personal experiences of my friends, being physical is often used to hide the true feelings of the people involved.

True feelings? I dunno, I think having a sober makeout session with someone to me means they're probably into each other. But I understand most of what you're saying, correlation isn't exactly causation. Making-out doesn't mean you're together, just means two people having sloppy fun. Much how a guy and a girl chillin' together doesn't mean they're in a relationship.

 Results in confusion.  In hours of conversation of "Does he/she really like me?"  Ultimately a conversation will have to happen at some point to establish what's going on, so I guess I'm all why not get it over with asap?  I will always love words when it comes to establishing what's going on between two people.  Now does that mean I don't like the physical part of a relationship?  Uh, no that's not that what that means.  It simply means I don't worry about what the guy is really thinking, can actually relax into the physical stuff, and know I'm not being used. (I should note, being aware what the other person is thinking is not necessarily we're dating, it could be also be we're FWB.  It's just that I know what we are and am cool with it) Again, if this is just a drunken party makeout, that's very different.  But if it's with a well established friend who I hang out a lot with?  I really prefer to know what things mean.  Again, maybe nonA has never been burned in the past, and quite honestly yes I'm happy for him that he hasn't, but I'm also mildly jealous of that.  Because man have I been burned.  So them's my final thoughts on the debate.

Ultimately, you know the girl and your situation best, The Mikey.  You do what you think makes the most sense!

I think a mixture of both physical and words could work/demonstrate how I feel about them.

And yeah, that's true too... I think the next best course of action to take would be to call her up and offer to hangout to talk to her, or I could call her on the phone and tell her what's going on.

What you're ignoring, nonA, is that Mikey doesn't have a whole lot of romantic/sexual experience

No, I don't.

and is also quite anxious about doing the wrong thing and offending his friend, something he's stated repeatedly right here in this thread as his primary problem.

Yes, I am and I have indeed said a few times.

 Using escalating touch and evaluating whether the responses you're getting are positive enough to be a "yes" to continuing to escalate/go in for a kiss involves a lot more subtlety and uncertainty than simply asking a yes or no question.  It sounds to me like it would probably be a lot easier and less anxiety-inducing for Mikey to ask her out directly rather than to try to interpret physical signals and make a move with no overt romantic context... and surely you would agree that a much less anxious guy is more likely to come across as appealing than a very anxious guy?    Which isn't even getting into the problem that Mikey's concerns are likely to lead him to underestimate how interested she appears and so if he goes for a more subtle route he's much more likely to assume a no when she actually would have said yes.

Sounds about right as well. Trust me, I've been burned too but in the opposite direction, I've overestimated interest which sucks, so now I underestimate it. Although... I'm not sure but I do have a creeping feeling that there may have been some signs early on that I wasn't seeing, or I was seeing and I just wasn't sure about it.

I'm sure there are some women who prefer a physical approach over a verbal one. There are also women, including me and others who have commented before, who prefer a verbal expression of interest first (and who aren't just ideally imagining we prefer it but know it from the actual emotions we've experienced when related scenarios have actually occurred in our lives). And there are plenty of women, I'm sure, who'll respond fine to both.  I suspect right now Mikey would be best off with a woman who's at least okay with, if not preferring, direct communication, for his own sake.  And I really don't think it's helpful for you to push a one size fits all approach of "this is always the best way to make a romantic move" without considering the feelings and personality not just of the variety of women out there, but especially of the individual guy you're talking to.

In my own personal experience, the direct approach has always been the best approach because at least you're laying it all out, I'm laying out what I want to do with the other person. Hasn't failed me so far in getting a response of some kind. A woman who's direct with me sounds like a lot of fun and would be amazing.

[Jayce]

And yeah, that's true too... I think the next best course of action to take would be to call her up and offer to hangout to talk to her, or I could call her on the phone and tell her what's going on.

I know I'm being biased about this cause its just not really my way of doing things, but it's probably not a good idea to call her on the phone and ask her out that way. It seems impersonal to me.

[Guest]

I know I'm being biased about this cause its just not really my way of doing things, but it's probably not a good idea to call her on the phone and ask her out that way. It seems impersonal to me.

I mean I could arrange a hangout, but that seems dishonest of me to arrange a hangout only for me to ask her out. I dunno.

[OneTrueGuest]

Quick clarification to my point. You said you had pantsfeelings for her and also wanted to date her to my question about if you wanted a hookup or wanted to date. That response was odd to me because it seemed to suggest one either has pantsfeelings for someone and wants to hook up with them or doesn't and wants to date them. I just didn't want you falling into that virgin vs the whore mentality where the girl you date and bring home to mom isn't the girl you also have sexy times with. The girl you date ultimately also has to be the one you have sex with, and so it's okay to have pantsfeelings for someone and want to date them. Pantsfeelings doesn't just equal casual hookup was my point.

[Guest]

Quick clarification to my point.  You said you had pantsfeelings for her and also wanted to date her to my question about if you wanted a hookup or wanted to date.  That response was odd to me because it seemed to suggest one either has pantsfeelings for someone and wants to hook up with them or doesn't and wants to date them.  I just didn't want you falling into that virgin vs the whore mentality where the girl you date and bring home to mom isn't the girl you also have sexy times with.  The girl you date ultimately also has to be the one you have sex with, and so it's okay to have pantsfeelings for someone and want to date them.  Pantsfeelings doesn't just equal casual hookup was my point.

Aha! So, my initial thought when you mentioned that was correct. I can indeed have my theoretical cake and eat it too! :3

[Guest]

I know I'm being biased about this cause its just not really my way of doing things, but it's probably not a good idea to call her on the phone and ask her out that way. It seems impersonal to me.

I mean I could arrange a hangout, but that seems dishonest of me to arrange a hangout only for me to ask her out. I dunno.

Since I didn't get an answer for this, I'll pull a page from the book of King [Lebron] James and ask, "What should I do? Should I admit I’d made mistakes, should I remind you I’ve done this before? Should I give you a history lesson? What should I do?"

Should I call her up to hang and pop the question as we're hanging out? Should I ask her right then & there on the phone? Should I meet her somewhere for coffee or whatever? (I don't even like coffee) Should I invite her to go drink with me? Should I take her up on her offer to buy me a drink? (she fell asleep one night)

Or should I pull a Nike and just do it. Call her up and do it over the phone, I mean.

[OneTrueGuest]

Nah, not over the phone. It's not dishonest asking someone to hang out and then ask them on a date. You still want to hang out with her regardless of her answer.

So just meet up, have a chat, when things feel chill and flowing conversationally ask her. Or wait till you sense it's the end of the hangout and ask her. That might be best. Less awkward for both of you depending on the answer.

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