Re: "Entitlement, Nerds and Neanderthals"- today's Prime post etc.

[reboot]

Mel, I think you're right about what the charitable interpretation of them WRT mental illness is, and that it is the correct interpretation. I wish DNL specifically could have been better all the same.

Also, this is off-topic, but you had a logician on your team, reboot? For what purpose? I've never heard of logicians being used outside of computer science.

Oops! Typo. Logistician. He was our logistics guru A logician's head would explode in a refugee camp because there is no logic

[BasedBuzzed]

I think the distinction between an awkward, shy, nerdy guy VS the same but with ill intent or very bad ideas is harder to tell than your typical 'frat' type guy who has his own terrible ideas about women. I would imagine it makes a wee bit easier to lump someone like myself in with them (I've made the bold claim here I'm one of the good guys, oh shit   ).

To be fair, I don't deal much with the 'frat' types day-to-day. Maybe it is harder to tell than I think if a guy like that has ill intent than I think it is. But most who I have had to deal with that have had nasty ideas made them very clear with their behaviour. Nerdier sorts I know with nasty ideas seem to not be quite as open with them... But I'll let women on the receiving end make the call on that rather than myself so I take you at your word, Mel.

Yeah, thinking about it... I'd say that there are different qualities in each situation that kind of balance things out. If a guy is doing something clearly boundary-crossing, I'm generally going to feel more uncertain about whether he means it intentionally or if it's just an accident if he presents as nerdy/socially awkward than if he presents as confident and assured. But I think socially awkward folks, due to their being socially awkward, have a harder time hiding malicious intent when it's there, whereas socially confident guys can manipulate the situation more easily. So if a nerdy/socially awkward presenting guy isn't doing anything red flaggy, I'm generally pretty confident he's okay, whereas I'm more cautious with a socially confident guy who isn't doing anything red flaggy because I see more possibility that he could simply have the skill and awareness to hide ill intent.

Which actually makes socially awkward guys easier to interact with, for me at least, because it's easier to point to problematic behavior and say, "Erm, this is not cool" and then judge from their response whether they intended it or not, than it is to determine whether someone's being honest or manipulative with you, without any "bad" behavior to call out--especially early on when you're just starting to get to know the person. Also, if a confident manipulator does make a misstep and get called out, he's more likely to be able to pretend dismay and repentance while not really feeling it, so even that is harder to trust and to distinguish between good guy and predator.

(Not that I'm saying I assume all confident guys are predators or some such, but I'm definitely more wary of--or perhaps more accurately, less quick to trust--good behavior from them.)

Does that make sense?

Huh, I have the opposite. I have an easier time slapping away skeezy bros because the paradigm in which they operate gives an extremely easy counter(just be an it's-all-fun banterer back, and they lose the interaction if they throw a hissyfit about you giving lip back), while with the emotional vampire you have to tread carefully not to end up looking like the asshole. This just might be because I'm a dude, though.

[OneTrueGuest]

No, BB, I've found the same. I was always so careful not to hurt the feelings of the nerds who hit on me and therefore found myself in the trickiest of situations. In fact the only time someone lashed out at me Nice Guy TM style, it was a nerd. He was a friend at theatre school, we were working on a scene together, and he was late so I was hanging out in the common room chatting with fellow students. He showed up and chewed me out for speaking to other dudes and threatened to quit the scene (it wasn't mandatory, but it was a scene for an agent showcase - where all the agents in the city came to see the new graduating talent, it's a big opportunity). I basically begged him to stay and apologised profusely for daring to talk with other men because I needed to do that showcase. It was the worst I think I've ever been made to feel by a friend, and several months later he lashed out at me again over email. I've never spoken to him since.

Sorry. A bit of a derail. The point is I had felt bad for him when I'd first met him. He was socially awkward and no one in the class really spoke with him so I invited him to come sit with us, and I even cast him in a show I was doing, and he took it as a sign that I was clearly in love with him and therefore his property. I was totally unprepared for his behaviour towards me and blamed myself a lot. It took a lot for me to finally just end the friendship. Meanwhile the frat boy douchebags? Always assumed they were up to something and they were super easy to just turn down with a withering look.

[The Wisp]

Mel, I think you're right about what the charitable interpretation of them WRT mental illness is, and that it is the correct interpretation. I wish DNL specifically could have been better all the same.

Also, this is off-topic, but you had a logician on your team, reboot? For what purpose? I've never heard of logicians being used outside of computer science.

Oops! Typo. Logistician. He was our logistics guru A logician's head would explode in a refugee camp because there is no logic

Ha, okay. It did conjure up a bizarre picture

[The Wisp]

Sorry.  A bit of a derail.  The point is I had felt bad for him when I'd first met him.  He was socially awkward and no one in the class really spoke with him so I invited him to come sit with us, and I even cast him in a show I was doing, and he took it as a sign that I was clearly in love with him and therefore his property.  I was totally unprepared for his behaviour towards me and blamed myself a lot.  It took a lot for me to finally just end the friendship.  Meanwhile the frat boy douchebags?  Always assumed they were up to something and they were super easy to just turn down with a withering look.

Wow, that's awful

People like that are part of the reason people are hesitant to reach out to socially isolated people, particularly men.

[celette482]

Wow, that's awful

People like that are part of the reason people are hesitant to reach out to socially isolated people, particularly men.

There is definitely an assumption that people are socially isolated for a reason. Plus, it's easy to fall into that overly clingy trap when we are feeling lonely and hurting.

[Mel]

Huh, I have the opposite. I have an easier time slapping away skeezy bros because the paradigm in which they operate gives an extremely easy counter(just be an it's-all-fun banterer back, and they lose the interaction if they throw a hissyfit about you giving lip back), while with the emotional vampire you have to tread carefully not to end up looking like the asshole. This just might be because I'm a dude, though.

Well, I think partly it's that you don't seem to have really read what I wrote. I agreed that with guys who are being actively problematic, it's easier to identify ill intent among confident folks than socially awkward folks--it's when there isn't an obvious problem that I find confident guys make me feel more wary. Presumably you don't go around "slapping away" guys who haven't actually done anything "skeezy"? You also seem to be setting up clueless, predictable "bros" as the counterpart to nerds, which isn't the comparison I was making. Guys who are socially competent are quite capable of being subtle and smart in the way they assert themselves, and plenty of them can't be instantly overcome or revealed by a little banter.

I'm not sure that your breakdown of problematic behavior makes sense, either. There are plenty of "skeezy" socially awkward guys and plenty of socially confident guys who are emotionally vampiric (I happen to have dated one--not fun!). I would say in general it's easier to call out "skeeziness" (which is more casual) than emotional vampirism (which is more fraught), but I don't think that breaks down very definitively along awkward/confident lines, though the two may present a little differently depending on confidence levels.

But yeah, part of it will be because you're a guy, and so the types of behavior directed at you or even done in your presence will be different. Playfully calling out sexist talk or even a guy getting inappropriately physical with someone else is easier than just "bantering" away someone who's physically imposing on you yourself (especially if bigger and/or stronger). Having the emotional distance to come up with a smart aleck response is easier when the comments aren't directed at your own identity. And that's without even getting the issue of deciding how much to trust the well-meaningness-toward-women of someone who hasn't been overtly misbehaving so far, something that isn't going to matter much to you but matters a lot to a woman deciding whether to share personal details, contact info, etc.

[Dan_Brodribb]

So to summarize: Admonishing someone to drop the excuses and make a commitment to change right now can be effective, but it's a dose dependent remedy and has potential side effects. I can't really say if the amount of tough love on Paging is too high or just right... but when you (unspecific, generalized, you) read it, you may need to balance it out with some patience, self-compassion, and awareness about the complexity of the skills you are trying to build.

But an important addition at the end: All this has been assuming that the purpose of tough love is to help the recipient improve.

I think this is a great point worth addressing. I know for myself when I'm advice-giving, when I get to the point of 'build a bridge and get over it,' I often notice frustration in myself. I notice it especially when I believe people are resisting the reality of the situation and what they have to do to change it or that they think they need some kind of Special Magic Advice because they have all these reasons why the things that work for everyone else don't apply to their specific situation or why they shouldn't be expected to do those things. Especially when from my perspective there really IS no other option other than the one they're refusing to consider.

For example, my nephew can't say "L" or "R" (except for "liopleuridon" which practically dances off his tongue). If he came to me about it, what am I supposed to do? Tell him to avoid words with those sounds? Petition the English language to remove those letters from the alphabet? I can't practice the sounds FOR him and magically transfer that ability to him. The only thing I can do is tell him to keep practicing, do his best, and in the meantime continue to do what he is doing--using alternate strategies to adapt around his limitations. I really don't think there ARE any other realistic options.

On the other hand, from his point of view, that's easy for me to say. I can say 'R's and 'L's, and I don't remember what it was like when I couldn't. So if he were to accuse me of not understanding he could be right.

I think another place we fail giving the 'get over it' advice is we imply you get over it once and it's done and if you can't you just weren't trying hard enough. That hasn't been the case for me. It's not that easy. It's a process. I make mistakes. Some days I run out of willpower and backslide. Sometimes it feels the 'it' you're getting over doesn't seem to end where you thought it would so it feels like you're building a bridge into the fog going "where DOES this thing end anyway? It looked like nothing when I started and now I can't even SEE the other side."

But usually there's progress. Sometimes it isn't as far or as fast I'd like. In many areas of my life, I'm constantly falling short of what I want for myself. And whether I fail or succeed, the next day I often find myself facing those exact same challenges all over again.

And there are also times I meet those things. Or even succeed beyond what I thought was possible for me. Or even though I feel like I'm no closer to the other shore, I look back and see how far I've come.

And I also come back to the question, "What other options are there?" My ex has some health issues that makes working difficult. But she wants to work. So she keeps doing the best she can. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. But what other choice does she have? As long as this is important to her, all she can do is keep plugging away while recognizing the reality that things might not work out.

Again, easy for me to say. A younger me wouldn't have drawn much comfort from the paragraphs above.

In my teens and through my twenties I would only do things I knew I could succeed at. I wanted a guarantee of success or I wasn't going to even try. I think I believe that if I failed at something that meant *I* was a failure. So the stakes felt higher and the consequences were more terrifying.

I've now failed at enough things and survived it that I'm more at peace with it. My life is richer as a result because I'm more willing to reach for more things. But that didn't come overnight so...like I said, it's a lot easier for me to say NOW than when I was struggling with those things.

[Guest]

No, BB, I've found the same.  I was always so careful not to hurt the feelings of the nerds who hit on me and therefore found myself in the trickiest of situations. In fact the only time someone lashed out at me Nice Guy TM style, it was a nerd.  He was a friend at theatre school, we were working on a scene together, and he was late so I was hanging out in the common room chatting with fellow students.  He showed up and chewed me out for speaking to other dudes and threatened to quit the scene (it wasn't mandatory, but it was a scene for an agent showcase - where all the agents in the city came to see the new graduating talent, it's a big opportunity).  I basically begged him to stay and apologised profusely for daring to talk with other men because I needed to do that showcase. It was the worst I think I've ever been made to feel by a friend, and several months later he lashed out at me again over email.  I've never spoken to him since.

Sorry.  A bit of a derail.  The point is I had felt bad for him when I'd first met him.  He was socially awkward and no one in the class really spoke with him so I invited him to come sit with us, and I even cast him in a show I was doing, and he took it as a sign that I was clearly in love with him and therefore his property.  I was totally unprepared for his behaviour towards me and blamed myself a lot.  It took a lot for me to finally just end the friendship.  Meanwhile the frat boy douchebags?  Always assumed they were up to something and they were super easy to just turn down with a withering look.

It ain't like you two were married or anything...

But to be honest, I find that those who blow up in such a manner lack maturity. If I was in your shoes I would have chewed him out for being late, but that's just me, I'm a rather punctual man (when it's convenient ). Hell, any sensible person, shy nerd or not would have apologized for being late because really that's no big deal, nor is talking to other fellows. Oh well, 'tis in the past.

[Caffeinated]

In my teens and through my twenties I would only do things I knew I could succeed at. I wanted a guarantee of success or I wasn't going to even try. I think I believe that if I failed at something that meant *I* was a failure. So the stakes felt higher and the consequences were more terrifying.

Well said. I had that same problem in my teens and twenties, and it is a huge hindrance in so many ways.

[OneTrueGuest]

The Wisp - yup, exactly. I've spent my life reaching out to the socially isolated because I understood how that could happen and had a great deal of empathy.  I've never not once been burned (mostly it was female nerds who were socially isolated, I should add. They turned out to be unpleasant manipulators and proficient liars, I always got hurt).  But, I can't help it, I still have empathy and I continue to assume not everyone is the same.  So I do still reach out.  But I'm not as open as I once was in that reaching out.  

The Mikey - we weren't married, we weren't even dating, we weren't even best friends.  He was one friend I had of many.  I wasn't the only girl he did this too.  A mutual friend lived with him for a while thinking it would be fine, he eventually got to the point where he'd scream at her if she brought anyone home.  She had to move out.  

And yeah, sounds like a super easy fix, if only I'd chewed him out for his lack of maturity.  Uh huh.  Come on, you think I'm a shy retiring violet?  When he showed up and acted this way at first it was so unbelievable I was all, "Are you kidding me?"  But then he got really aggressive and it scared me.  And then he stormed out and left. He left.  Saying he wasn't going to do the scene anymore.  I had to come up with a contingency plan just in case and in the meantime had to speak with him on the phone begging his forgiveness.  We were a day away from the showcase.  It isn't always just a matter of putting someone in their place.  And he was the only person I've ever known who I worried could maybe physically hurt me.  He was so unhinged, so unpredictable.  The whole point was he wasn't sensible or reasonable.  He was a loose cannon.  And to tell me that I should have just chewed him out for being late as if that would have made the situation better is really not understanding this particular personality nor what it's like to be a woman dealing with a man who is unhinged, jealous, and unpredictable.

And it might be in the past, but it was a pretty big deal at the time for both me and my other friend who lived with him.  This past fall we went to a wedding where he was there and I never in my life actually avoided anyone before.  I said hello and that was it, I just could not let bygones be bygones.  He treated me horrendously throughout the relationship and I put up with it because, "Well, he's a socially awkward nerd, he doesn't know any better."  I finally realised he was a manipulative jealous control freak, and I didn't need that kind of person in my life.  An important lesson to learn.  And not just an "oh well it's in the past" kind of thing.

[OneTrueGuest]

Mel - I dunno, I'm a woman and agreed with BB. I find it easier to turn down the charming guys because I kind of assume that they don't really care that much. That this is what they do, that they know eventually they'll find a girl who'll welcome their advances. But as we know from this community, many socially awkward nerds find approaching terrifying and if they are rejected it's extremely painful for them and hurtful. So I try to keep that in mind with such men. I tend to feel my rejection of that kind of guy has far more of an emotional impact than turning down the attractive smooth operator.

[Hirundo Bos]

And I also come back to the question, "What other options are there?"

Good question, and I'm not sure I can answer it completely. I may have some partial answers though... and I'd say that this goes for people trying to change themselves as well as for people trying to give advice... the internalized "just get over it"s are if anything even more dose-dependent than the the external ones.

1) Recognize the difference between a) not trying X hard enough, b) trying X, but not doing it right, and c) trying X when it would have been better to try Y. The more times someone tries X without measurable results, the less likely the reason is to be a). In other words: Be aware of the fact that a tactic may not work, and be prepared to revise your plan as you go along.

2) Recognize that a certain skill, once learned, seems a lot easier than it actually is, and that a simple action that you know how to do is actually a complex series of actions that you've once learned how to do. If someone struggle with performing X, it may sometimes (but not always) help to break X down into Xa, Xb, Xc etc and see if it becomes clearer where the struggle lays.

3) It may also help to break the main goal into partial goals, like the way I have spent the last year practicing emotional and interpersonal skills, and hardly even thought about the ultimate goal of finding romance/sex.

4) Set the right level of challenges for yourself or the other person. If something is too easy, there will be nothing to learn from it. If something is too hard, the lesson they will take away is failure. The right level of challenge requires effort, it can be scary, and it does require the right amount of just pulling oneself together.

5) Measures progress at a level of detail where advances can be seen and felt.

6) With all this being said, there are certain skills that does require repetitive, boring practice... learning to read and write is often like this, and learning to pronounce certain sounds are probably in that category too. (I still can't pronounce the letter S quite right, myself.)

And it may be worth noting that progress from practice is frequently nonlinear. Sometimes you get a boost in the beginning, and then the learning curve flats out... and sometimes, counterintuitively, practice may lead to even worse performance in the beginning. This can happen when you have learned to accomplish a thing with strategy X, but strategy X isn't really all that good, so now you practice doing strategy Y instead... but you then need a way to get Y up to the level of X, and in this period, your performance will be worse. The upside is that when you do get to that level with Y, you will still keep improving further.

But as for the pain and frustration and anxiety you go through when you practice something again and again and don't experience any progress at all and there really isn't any other option... as I said I don't have a complete answer for that.

7) There's a saying that when somebody's lost in the woods, you need to find out where they are before you can help them find the way out themselves. This may or may not be relevant to this issue.

8 ) is about cultural messages more than how to help a particular person/oneself... and I may be reading the cultural message wrong... but it appears to me that we are hear a lot more about willpower than we do about skill... about the importance of believing in ourselves, of never giving up, less about the importance of taking a step back, changing strategies, maybe even revising our goals. I'd particularly like to hear more about how some things are actually very difficult, and I try to do my little part of getting that message out myself.

- especially when it comes to social skills, because they require a bit extra effort for me to learn, and because that's where I have really felt the effects of applying skill and knowledge rather than just trying harder. (To learn just a little bit about bridgebuilding before I go out and get me a pile of bricks.)

[Mel]

Mel - I dunno, I'm a woman and agreed with BB.  I find it easier to turn down the charming guys because I kind of assume that they don't really care that much.  That this is what they do, that they know eventually they'll find a girl who'll welcome their advances.  But as we know from this community, many socially awkward nerds find approaching terrifying and if they are rejected it's extremely painful for them and hurtful.  So I try to keep that in mind with such men.  I tend to feel my rejection of that kind of guy has far more of an emotional impact than turning down the attractive smooth operator.

Well, obviously everyone has different experiences. I was only saying what my feelings were and why I thought that was the case for me.

I'll point out again, though, that I wasn't talking about guys you aren't into and want to turn down. For me too it's easier to feel comfortable turning down a confident-seeming guy who rubs me the wrong way than a awkward-seeming guy who does. Where I was saying awkward guys have the advantage, for me, is when it comes to trusting a guy who seems to be cool and interesting. If I'm hitting it off with a guy, whether as friends or (in the past) romantically, I feel much more comfortable trusting that he's a safe person to get closer with if I can tell he's somewhat socially awkward than if he seems pretty confident, since I feel the former is likely to give a fairly honest early impression whereas the latter may simply be skilled at putting on a good face to the world.

Edit: And to clarify, because I realize it may not be completely obvious from my last post--much of my comments toward BB were directed not at the idea that dealing with bad behavior from confident guys is easier than calling out bad behavior from awkward guys (which, as I said, I agree about), but at the idea that it's generally "extremely easy," full stop, to deal with confident guys behaving in unpleasant ways. Maybe you have been lucky enough never to experience this, but I certainly have encountered, seen other women encounter, and heard women talk about encountering confident guys who were not easily dismissed with a little verbal sparring, and/or who were physically imposing enough to make the woman feel nervous about outright telling them off.

[OneTrueGuest]

That is interesting. I suppose I'd be inclined to agree, but that might be because of who I am and the kinds of men I prefer. But I also think that can be based on irrational prejudice too. As we know, there are some shy awkward nerds who aren't always honest, even with themselves and can have some pretty misogynistic opinions, and there are confident goodlooking guys who were raised in feminist households and totally mean what they say. I think the key is to take each person case by case and attempt not to paint too broadly any one group of people. Which is something I have to tell myself not to do all the time. I've also been hurt more by nerd boys because I expected more of them than I did the pretty boys (like you), ultimately people end up just being people. There are assholes in every group. And wonderful people too.

[Mel]

That is interesting.  I suppose I'd be inclined to agree, but that might be because of who I am and the kinds of men I prefer.  But I also think that can be based on irrational prejudice too.  As we know, there are some shy awkward nerds who aren't always honest, even with themselves and can have some pretty misogynistic opinions, and there are confident goodlooking guys who were raised in feminist households and totally mean what they say.  I think the key is to take each person case by case and attempt not to paint too broadly any one group of people.  Which is something I have to tell myself not to do all the time. I've also been hurt more by nerd boys because I expected more of them than I did the pretty boys (like you), ultimately people end up just being people.  There are assholes in every group.  And wonderful people too.

Yep. And I acknowledged from the start that this was about perceptions, not about reality. This line of conversation began with MapWater mentioning a worry that innocent nerdy men are difficult to distinguish from predators and therefore may more easily be lumped in with them than other men, and me giving him an example of how, at least for me, it can also work the opposite way (with innocent confident men being perceived as more likely to be a predator).

This post is probably the best summary of what I was trying to get at: https://nerdlounge.canadian-forum.com/t341p195-entitlement-nerds-and-neanderthals-today-s-prime-post-etc#7584  (And please read it with the context that I'm talking there about all interactions with men--including coworkers and people in my social circles and so on--not just strangers hitting on me, which is why something like being able to point out problematic behavior and judge the response to the criticism would matter, as I can't always simply not see the person ever again if they put me off a bit.)

[Guest]

The Mikey - we weren't married, we weren't even dating, we weren't even best friends.  He was one friend I had of many.  I wasn't the only girl he did this too.  A mutual friend lived with him for a while thinking it would be fine, he eventually got to the point where he'd scream at her if she brought anyone home.  She had to move out.  

I know you guys weren't...   And I would have guessed, she had to move out, this dude sounds like a very toxic individual.

And yeah, sounds like a super easy fix, if only I'd chewed him out for his lack of maturity.  Uh huh.  Come on, you think I'm a shy retiring violet?  When he showed up and acted this way at first it was so unbelievable I was all, "Are you kidding me?"

I would have guessed you'd say something along the lines of "Dude wtf are you talking about?", but you didn't mention that either. So then I thought my initial guess was wrong and went with the following details provided and I was saying what I'd do if *I* were in that position. Obviously, I wasn't so maybe that wasn't the smartest thing for me to say. I apologize for any misunderstandings there.

But then he got really aggressive and it scared me.  And then he stormed out and left. He left.  Saying he wasn't going to do the scene anymore.  I had to come up with a contingency plan just in case and in the meantime had to speak with him on the phone begging his forgiveness.  We were a day away from the showcase.  It isn't always just a matter of putting someone in their place.  And he was the only person I've ever known who I worried could maybe physically hurt me.  He was so unhinged, so unpredictable.  The whole point was he wasn't sensible or reasonable.  He was a loose cannon.  And to tell me that I should have just chewed him out for being late as if that would have made the situation better is really not understanding this particular personality nor what it's like to be a woman dealing with a man who is unhinged, jealous, and unpredictable.

Well, shit.

I take that back too, I didn't know those particular details either. I had no clue that he was potentially dangerous nor did I know that he was a manipulative asshole. From the way you described the situation initially, I thought he was just some dude who had some entitlement issues and liked to blow things way out of proportion. Again, I had no idea that this fellow was potentially dangerous.

And it might be in the past, but it was a pretty big deal at the time for both me and my other friend who lived with him.  This past fall we went to a wedding where he was there and I never in my life actually avoided anyone before.  I said hello and that was it, I just could not let bygones be bygones.  He treated me horrendously throughout the relationship and I put up with it because, "Well, he's a socially awkward nerd, he doesn't know any better."  I finally realised he was a manipulative jealous control freak, and I didn't need that kind of person in my life.  An important lesson to learn.  And not just an "oh well it's in the past" kind of thing.

Okay, that wasn't a smart thing for me to say, so I feel dumb for saying that too now in lieu of new information. So, my bad. In addition, so I'm clear, I didn't mean to marginalize your experience by any means, I wasn't tryna be a jerk, of course you know this (I sometimes put my both feet in my mouth and will trudge on while looking foolish). I made a mistake. And I also understand, that this kind of stuff sticks with you for life.

I guess I'll stop talking now.

[BasedBuzzed]

@bro/emovamp dichotomy

Was never really intended to put it that way, but your point about not being a clear line between dudebro and emotional vampire stands and it's also true that brocial engineering is much broader than simply hitting on someone on the evening itself.

Befriending her circle of friends to get an 'in' and be more difficult to eject, warning her about more obvious toxic people while covertly displaying the behaviour themselves, bro-ing other people up(mainly telling them to approach more, get swole and the like) in order to 'help' them(this is either to win support in the circle of friends or encouraging 'orbiters' away from her), and lots of other neat little tactics that seem petty to call out seriously on their own, but form a pretty freaky pattern when they add up.

[OneTrueGuest]

The Mikey - lol no no no, it's not that at all, keep talking! Don't every stop the talking! It's just beware of assumptions. And I should too, quite frankly. You're right, I didn't give all the details initially and that was my bad. I should have. I too made an assumption that folks here would know me by now to know that I speak my mind and do well in social situations and so likely this had to be an extraordinary thing for me to react how I did. Which is silly because I'm still relatively new here and you guys really don't know me that well at all . It was my bad too. Do not feel guilty, I apologise for getting a little heated. It's just this dude, gah this dude! He makes me so angry and I hate that so much, so I get a little defensive I think when I talk about him. It's all good man, it's all good. And I'm sorry in return .

[tseug1]

Mod note: Post has been removed.

tseug1, if you want to continue to participate here, please tone down the blanket proclamations about entire groups and the inflammatory language.

[Guest]

The Mikey - lol no no no, it's not that at all, keep talking!  Don't every stop the talking!  It's just beware of assumptions.  And I should too, quite frankly.  You're right, I didn't give all the details initially and that was my bad.  I should have.  I too made an assumption that folks here would know me by now to know that I speak my mind and do well in social situations and so likely this had to be an extraordinary thing for me to react how I did.  Which is silly because I'm still relatively new here and you guys really don't know me that well at all .  It was my bad too.  Do not feel guilty, I apologise for getting a little heated.  It's just this dude, gah this dude!  He makes me so angry and I hate that so much, so I get a little defensive I think when I talk about him.  It's all good man, it's all good.  And I'm sorry in return .

I try not to assume, but it's difficult not to when there's blanks and you can't fully form a picture in your head. Then it becomes super easy when the details sync up so nicely without some of the in-betweens. And it's okay, I forgive you and I'll show you my e-affection though tumblr Supernatural gif e-hugz. Cuz I been there too, I'll remember people and instances and I can't help but get riled up too and the memories of being Hulk-mad in my head come rushing in... Yeah, not a pretty sight (for me at least), one I can certainly relate too. :3

[Guest]

@tseug1: If you're so eager to get banned, why'd you go through the trouble of signing up in the first place?

Also, lay off on the armchair diagnosing. It's very inappropriate.

[The Wisp]

I think the fundamental confusion that leads people like Aaronson and other nerdy gusy to feel angry at feminists is similar to a confusion a lot of nerdy ladies have reported feeling at various times in their lives.

A lot of women say things like "where are all the good men" and "I just want a man who respects me" and "why are men such jerks". A lot of feminists say that though perhaps with different, more feminist-y words, but so do many non-feminist women, and it's a common trope among female characters in media. The nerdy guy thinks that he's good, nice, and respectful, so his loneliness means women are hypocritical and, at worst, liars. What is left out in those women's statements, though, is an implicit 'attractive' before the word 'men'. But that's not obvious to nerdy guys, especially in a culture where what women desire in men at a more emotional and sexual level isn't well portrayed in male-targeted media.

This could also explain why some nerdy guys, upon finding out about the implicit 'attractive' and often finding it leaves them out, go to the other extreme and view women as shallow who don't really care if a guy respects her as long as he's tall, rich, confident, muscled, and aggressive.

This reminds me of many of the nerdy women who express frustration that many nerdy men bemoan the lack of nerdy women to date, but ignore that there are nerdy women right around them all the time. Again, an implicit 'attractive' is before the word 'women'. It is not a perfect analogy, but it strikes me that maybe many younger people just don't recognize that things other than being a morally good, hygienic, nice person matter in others' patterns of attraction. It has to be something thrown in their face. Maybe that misconception is especially common among nerdy people of both genders.

[Guest]

I think the fundamental confusion that leads people like Aaronson and other nerdy gusy to feel angry at feminists is similar to a confusion a lot of nerdy ladies have reported feeling at various times in their lives.

A lot of women say things like "where are all the good men" and "I just want a man who respects me" and "why are men such jerks". A lot of feminists say that though perhaps with different, more feminist-y words, but so do many non-feminist women, and it's a common trope among female characters in media. The nerdy guy thinks that he's good, nice, and respectful, so his loneliness means women are hypocritical and, at worst, liars. What is left out in those women's statements, though, is an implicit 'attractive' before the word 'men'. But that's not obvious to nerdy guys, especially in a culture where what women desire in men at a more emotional and sexual level isn't well portrayed in male-targeted media.

This could also explain why some nerdy guys, upon finding out about the implicit 'attractive' and often finding it leaves them out, go to the other extreme and view women as shallow who don't really care if a guy respects her as long as he's tall, rich, confident, muscled, and aggressive.

This reminds me of many of the nerdy women who express frustration that many nerdy men bemoan the lack of nerdy women to date, but ignore that there are nerdy women right around them all the time. Again, an implicit 'attractive'  is before the word 'women'. It is not a perfect analogy, but it strikes me that maybe many younger people just don't recognize that things other than being a morally good, hygienic, nice person matter in others' patterns of attraction. It has to be something thrown in their face. Maybe that misconception is especially common among nerdy people of both genders.

Bear in mind that attractiveness is also very much subjective. So, some of these women want dudes who're attractive to them, much like how dudes want someone attractive to them too.

I've also bemoaned the lack of nerdy women, but that's because a lot of them in my area are indeed already taken. Or are hiding in plain sight just like me (actually, I'm pretty bad at that lol). Just a matter of finding them... D:

[eselle28]

Bear in mind that attractiveness is also very much subjective. So, some of these women want dudes who're attractive to them, much like how dudes want someone attractive to them too.

It's probably worth noting that "nice" has a large subjective component as well. There are some people who do objectively horrid things to their partners, but to some extent, some of the complaints about people being arrogant or passive aggressive or irresponsible or emotionally neglectful or demanding are the results of poor matches between partners. Some of the men I've dated who I've complained about have gone on to make other women happy, and while I like to think I'm at least at the "okay" level of human morality, I've been in a couple of relationships where I've been the bad guy. Some of my friends' most despised boyfriends and girlfriends have also gone on to have what look like successful relationships. The fact that someone's unhappy with their current or past partners isn't that good of an indicator whether they'd be happier with a particular third party, especially when seen through a friends' eye view of wanting to support the person you have a relationship with over a partner you probably don't know as well or care about as much.

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