Re: Cold Approaching Still Blows [disc/rant]

[The Wisp]

I know that reads harsh, and kleenstar has much more patient advice to offer.  My advice in general to so many in this forum is to stop thinking that you are so unique that no one else can be seen as a model for behaviour.  Maybe if you actually thought others had it just as rough as you did, then maybe you'd think it was possible for you to fix your situation just as others were capable to.

I feel compelled to respond to this. I guess I was kinda being addressed by this bit. I hope I'm not derailing here, or taking this advice too personally.

I'm ambivalent about this. On the one hand, yes, there's a lot of "oh I'm so unique that it's all impossible so I won't even try", and I'm totally guilty of that. We all (advice-seekers) need to hear that others have struggled and have succeed sometimes, given that we do think of ourselves as hard-cases (that's why we stick around; the easy cases read DNL for a few weeks and never comment, I'd imagine). I also appreciate that you didn't go down the road of "lots of people have this problem, therefore it is a simple and easy problem to solve", which I have seen others do.

On the other hand, sometimes taking the attitude that you are in the normal range can be unhelpful. I only speak for myself here--and this goes beyond the scope of dating so maybe your advice isn't targeted at this--but I tried the normal things that you're supposed to do to treat my social anxiety and related mental issues. I went on anti-anxiety meds, I joined extracurricular activities, I got a part-time job (for a time), and I made small talk with people in class, I made a local internet friend who I tried to interact with in real life. I faced my fears. Not only were these steps not effective, in some cases they made me worse off by allowing me to fall into bad patterns from my earlier years or re-traumatizing me with bad experiences (particularly that first job... ugh). You know what? My problems are unusual. Or rather my particular combination of them is. Not unique, certainly not, but still unusual. The fact that I crave intimacy but I don't trust people. The fact that I feel crushing loneliness but feel emotionally pained after every non-formal social interaction, even if it went well. The fact that I am so oversensitive I literally have been traumatized (I don't use that word lightly) by stupid stupid social shit that most people would forget or laugh about. The fact that I've never had a healthy close friendship in my life, and that I fall into bad patterns whenever I get close to people (which was, like once in the past 6 years). I've looked. I've found resources online for people with social anxiety, but found nobody quite like me (at least, nobody that ended up successful...). I've had two therapists. One called me his hardest case, the other (current one) didn't say as much but did say I had "uniqueness".

I mean, I know what I have to do. Step 1, figure out a way to stop being so oversensitive to other human beings and to stop feeling bad during and after socializing. Step two, cognitive behavioral techniques plus exposure therapy. Step three, profit!

I don't know how to do step one... at least not now...

This doesn't mean I'm going to be worse off than others going forward in the social, romantic, and sexual spheres, but it does present unique challenges and I wish I (and my parents, and my schoolteachers...) had realized that sooner.

Apologies for the emotional vomit.

[Guest]

MapWater - not sure what to tell you.  Quite frankly you are articulating the exact attitude I find problematic here.  The thought that what you feel, that your personality, that all those things combine to some kind of a special human being incapable of coping while others have a combined situation that makes them more capable.  Basically you're saying that it's easier for me.  Yet again.  And I disagree.  But whatever.  Clearly this attitude runs deep, and quite frankly, I could see how it could be kind of comforting.  To know there's nothing you can do to change your situation means you never actually have to face your fears.  Not saying you are actively doing it on purpose, but I bet there's something deep down that gets some kind of satisfaction in believing that.

I know that reads harsh, and kleenstar has much more patient advice to offer.  My advice in general to so many in this forum is to stop thinking that you are so unique that no one else can be seen as a model for behaviour.  Maybe if you actually thought others had it just as rough as you did, then maybe you'd think it was possible for you to fix your situation just as others were capable to.

Since you changed it, I think I need to clarify something here: I don't have it rough. Like, at all. I may be fucked up emotionally but I have a hell of a lot more stable life than just about anyone I know in person. And the people I meet online seem to have lives like nightmares that they somehow survive everyday.

But I do struggle with people. And talking. And generally expressing emotions that aren't self-destructive. Essentially, things that make me ashamed to be around others, which I'm sure people on here, including yourself, will at least understand. Being social in any capacity is my bane, my weakness. I don't understand it to the point that I seriously think someone else succeeding has no bearing on my own success. I convinced myself of that.

So, yeah, I'm going to whinge like a shit head about even when that's really stupid of me to do so. And I'm probably one of the few people on this board who hasn't faced real terrifying hardship. I mean, there was a period in my life where about six people I know and loved died like fucking dominoes over three years, but that's nothing. A mote of dust in the wind. Hell, my mum being sick right now is nothing. It happens to fucking everyone. It's scary, it sucks, but it happens. I mean, I've argued with people on whether I've had it rough or not where they were arguing I have and myself that I've not. So my problems seems to be denying I have problems in the first place, for one. I wrestle with the very idea every damn day.

To get to the point, if I've given the impression I think I have it really rough compared to anyone on here, I sincerely apologise. Because that's as far from the truth as possible and I seriously need to improve my communication skills if that is the impression I am giving. Additionally, I apologise if that has meant I've been a cruel bastard when it comes to others on here and not noticed it.

Furthermore, unique? I'm an emotionally repressed nerd with almost zero social skills who would rather work on my computer all day than go to a party. I'm a goddamn Tumblr cliche. So, if I've somehow given the impression that I'm a snowflake, I really do apologise again because I'm a living breathing cliche.

The truth is I'm a weak little boy who doesn't get people and the more he tries to understand them the less he wants to because it's terrifying and complicated when life was so simple before he gave a shit. Honestly, I am glass. I may look shiny and lustrous now, but my fear is that I will hit a wall and shatter into a million, tiny and irreparable pieces.

And, yeah, I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, I'm satisfied that I do have a good life and that my fears are fucking stupid and avoidable. Don't date! Don't give a shit about it! Problem gone. However, on the other hand, if I don't improve my interpersonal skills, I won't even make it far in the business world, never mind meeting people in general. I mean, one of my worries is someone thinks I'm great and I run. I flee. I disrespect them and hide because I'm terrified of them. But, at the same time, I just want to cover my own ass and not look like a right shithead.

To reiterate, I'm sorry I've given the impression I'm something I'm not. It's clearly caused you pain, OTG, at the very least.

[OneTrueGuest]

It's truly difficult to flounce when you have email notifications .

Okay.  First of all.  TheWisp.  Considering the nature of this site I had kind of assumed that everything I was saying was with the understanding that mental health disorders make things difficult in their own delightfully unique way, and that I in no way meant to suggest one ought to just brave through things without analysing why one behaves how one behaves.  I thought considering my post history, considering my personal history that I've talked about, that there would be a degree of understanding that I know that there are real health issues that people contend with that make living much harder for some than others.  And that I was not referring to people with such issues.  I am very sorry, however, that it came across otherwise.  You know what they say about people who make assumptions . . .

MapWater.  You haven't caused me pain, seriously no worries.  I have been very frustrated by this site of late for my own reasons, which I referred to earlier in this thread and I think I'm just too emotional to discuss this in a helpful fashion. Life is feeling fear.  We all feel it.  And that's what got to me reading this thread.  This idea that the only way other people handle fear is that they don't actually feel it is absurd.  But that's the excuse so many want to make on our behalf.  And I'm tired of feeling like my life has been some kind of easy breezy existence and I kind of snapped.  I did.  And that's why I decided to take a break for a while.  Because it's no one's fault but mine that I snapped.

Anyway yeah.  Have no fear.  I'm fine.  I really am.  I'm just mad at myself for taking things here so personally.  It's all good .

[Guest]

OK, that's it, I need to say something. I've been reading this entire thread pretty actively since it started, I have to interject. My ego is calling for it. And I'm going to try my best to be objective and fair and not be a dick.

So please be patient with me, this is in chronological order of what I want to respond to.

One final note before I begin: I'd like to personally acknowledge Mikey for being a good sport about all this. I don't give you credit where it's due, I don't like doing it. But I have to say it: you're one of my favorite people on here for a reason. You have what seems like a limitless well of resistance to all the crap in your life and all the people trying to force their way of life into a brain that's only wired one way. All power to you for it.

In one sentence you basically implied that most people have help facing their fears and so we don't count.  First of all, I want proof that that's true.  Because I know very few people who had help facing their fears, most of us have to go it alone.  

I really don't think that's how it was meant. You're right, most people are isolated. We've always been isolated. The help we get is never enough.

It's a different kind of pain. Both pains have equal value, but they're different. You're helped or you're not helped, the universe or God or Lord Xenu or whatever you wanna call the unknown factors that influence our lives. You will not be given any favors for any reason. Life will sucker punch you in the ass. And that's too fucking bad. You got help with your problems? Great. You did it alone? Great. The universe reacts the same way. Murphy's Law: whatever can happen will happen.

I just finished watching Interstellar, which is where that quote comes from. Sue me. This is not directed at OTG primarily, but I'm not going to play nice this time. No sir/ma'am.

Second of all . . . I am sick to death of that attitude here.  The attitude that clearly people who have managed to face their fears or push through them or done anything that others here find difficult, that for such people it was easier.  That they had help.  That really the only way a person can possibly have success dating or professionally or whatever is because they had an easier go of it than you (plural "you", not specific "you").  That is a huge massive fuck you to all the work I have put in to my life.  I don't know really if there is anyone else here on this site who faces as much daily rejection as I do.  I think maybe Mel, who is also an author, might have something comparable, but she is not an actress too.  I get rejected pretty much on a daily basis.  And guess what?  It hurts like a mother fucker.  Every. Single. Time.  This past week I could barely get out of bed I was so depressed.  I felt so worthless.  What was the point of going on when no one seems to appreciate anything I do?  I definitely had suicidal thoughts, I felt alone and helpless and I just didn't want to do anything.

And how does the universe respond? It doesn't fucking care. You get rejected more than the rest of us? Universe doesn't give a fuck. Does it mean the rejection means nothing? No. How the universe works and how you work are two different things. No one's saying your hurt means nothing in a human context.

And me constantly saying "the universe" is a metaphor for the unknown. Sounds cooler that way.

Anyway.

The conversation is not about you. The conversation began about Mikey getting angry about a guy being a creep to his sister. It was completely justified. Mikey has never come off as a creep, and he has enough social cues to understand how to start a conversation with a woman without being a creep.

So I repeat one more time: the conversation is not about you. You have been rejected constantly throughout your life. I can assure you that even if you're telling the truth, it's not a competition. You are not entitled to sympathy for this. I will not be sympathetic about it. I will acknowledge that you have suffered this pain, and that you didn't deserve it. You did nothing to deserve the pain you've been through. Nor have I, or Mikey, or Takuan, or anyone else here. We are all suffering together. If you'd like to talk about your pain, feel free to start a new topic about your pain. We are here to help Mikey.

This is a mistake I made regularly on this forum when I first arrived. I'd talk about myself, my pain. I hurt badly inside, it hurt worse than any other pain because I can only feel my own. I'm not speaking as someone who is the most empathetic person who ever lived. I'm really not. I don't know if I've been rejected more than you or vice versa (probably you since you're older, I'm 19 and you're 34, I'd assume you've had it worse than me based on pure math).

I'm sure it hurts to be you. It hurts to be me. It hurts to be Mikey. And what I'm saying might offend you, and I apologize if it does, because I genuinely don't want to do that. But like you said, tough love. I can be caring enough to not treat you like a child. You're not stupid. You won't be treated like you're stupid.

Anyway.

And no, I don't have clinical depression (I have been diagnosed with mild depression, but it's not the same), so I'm not fighting that.  But I still have to deal with constant horrible feelings.  The same goes for my dating life.  Yes, right now it's amazing.  FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE.  AT 34 YEARS OLD.  But up until last year, it was fucking hard.  You feel invisible being a man?  Try being a typically attractive woman who is supposed to get all the attention all the time and NO ONE IS PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO HER.  Try having everyone assume you must do just fine but no one actually interested.  

My point.  I know fear.  I know rejection.  I know pain and grief and wanting to end it all.  And fuck people saying that clearly the only reason I have managed to get ahead in my life, to have a relationship, to be able to go out to parties, to have a kind of career at this stupid arts stuff it's because I had help.  Or I had it easier.  Or I don't really know what real fear is like.

And I'm still missing what any of this has to do with the original topic, which is "some asshole hit on my sister, I hope I don't do that to someone else." Quite an empathetic thing for Mikey to say.

We've confirmed through numerous talks on the forum that attractiveness means nothing. That it's all the inside that counts. I don't know how true that is, but is you being typically attractive make you more entitled to love and attention and romance than the rest of us? Supposed to get attention? There is no supposed. We're all supposed to get attention. We're here because we don't. So you fit right in, then.

I could counter with a typical "I'm ugly why does no one love me" rant, but I'm not going to do that today. I understand you said this out of anger and not out of any maliciousness towards Mikey, but it still implies, albeit accidentally, that your feelings matter more than his because you consider yourself to be attractive and Mikey doesn't.

I'm still missing how any of this is answering the original topic. That's what the new topic button is for. Please feel free to press it at any time. People will respond and try to help because they are empathetic and because they care. And we've seen firsthand how these people have reached out to me during one of my many rants, you included.

I'm going to say this again: you're probably going to get really mad at this, but I think you need to get mad, because I'd rather speak to you honestly. I'm offended by this post, I'm going to express my criticisms in what I think is a fair manner. And once again, I apologize if you are offended, but the alternative is to treat you like something you're not.

Why the fuck do you all think I come here to post?  Do you honestly think it's to lord my superior skills and living situation and shake my head in wonder why you guys just can't get it together?  It's because I GET IT. I've been there.  Sometimes, like last week, I AM there.  But I have spent my life facing my fears.  Facing crippling self doubt. Facing all of the bullshit.  Why?  Because what other damn choice do we have??  We can sit around and analyse articles and dissect human interactions and theorise the best ways that society should run.  And there's value to that, it's true.  But we also just have to get on with living.  This is it people.  This isn't rehearsal.  This is your life right now, it's happening RIGHT BLOODY NOW.  You have two choices: do or do not. Someone once said that.  I think he was green.  

And he wasn't real.

We are all living in between the posts. We do not spend our days posting here, it's why almost nothing gets updated around here, because we all have work and school and lives or video games or something else.

I'll say this again, you have faced your hear and you've faced self doubt and all the bullshit. I don't doubt any of that. I commend you for your achievements in life.

The question remains: what does this have to do with Mikey? Where's the advice in this? "I did it, you can do it to!" We can certainly live and dissect and strive to go farther, it's proven to be very beneficial. And right now, while my jerkbrain isn't affecting my thoughts and my mind, I can see the progress I have made. Have I not faced my fears and the bullshit? Haven't beaten it, maybe I never will, maybe I'll always be like this. I don't know.

i mean, main question I got, since you mentioned it: are you better than me because you're prettier than me? Are you better than me because of your superior skills? Wonderful that you're pretty and you've got skills, but I'm missing how this relates to Mikey.

I really do blame all of this on miscommunication. We're trying to express ourselves and it's coming out wrong. What's in our head sounds a lot nicer. I deal with that shit all the time. I feel empathetic in this situation since I know what it feels like.

And I really really really really am saying this to try and mend things, I promise. From the bottom of my heart I swear I've got the best intentions at heart.

I'm not saying people don't have unique difficulties they are facing.  I am not negating very real challenges that many of us face.  But the funny thing is other people here do.  That's the irony.  People here write about how it must be so much easier for others, they had support, they just always found dating easy etc etc.  They completely negate whatever issues those people might be facing that you know nothing about.  It is some of the most insensitive BS I read here.  This arrogant assumption that others don't feel real pain or have real issues just because you don't know about them.  Hell I have serious digestive issues which means when I get really stressed I get really ill.  This past year was a very hard one for me (tons and tons of rejection and unsuccessful projects) and I got sick 3 times ("sick" = over a month of serious crippling pain).

And again, you say not to do something and then do that exact thing. You're negating his problems by listing your own. I know this is instinctual. This is learned behavior and it can be unlearned. It's insensitive and you don't know that. And trust me, it's going to make it a lot easier to express yourself if you're not spouting off your issues.

You got sick three times? The universe doesn't give a shit. The universe doesn't play favorites. Whatever can happen, will happen. You could get sick, so you did. And so it shall be.

I haven't once heard anyone on here say that no one else here knows real pain. I could be wrong and I could be biased. I still blame this on miscommunication.

In conclusion:  Stop assuming everyone has it easier than you.  Maybe instead assume everyone has something unique that makes it just as hard as it is for you.  And maybe instead of rolling your eyes and assuming they have nothing of value to offer by way of advice, maybe admire them.  Maybe think, "Wow, this person has faced all the things I fear most and survived.  Maybe I can too."  Maybe realise we're all human and all dealing with shit.  And we all are scared.  

And that it's time to get out there and fight for what you want.  

No you haven't.

Then again, you haven't faced what I've faced. And neither of us have faced what Mikey has faced. And the three of us don't know how much Takuan may have suffered. And so on.

Similarities in the pain, certainly. You and I share some pain, we can identify based on that. You're still feeling pain even now. It makes us human. Allows us to connect. We kinda need it. Without it, we'd be unmotivated. Your pain motivates you to keep going. As it does for me. And so on.

Objectively, by saying you hurt a way I hurt, all you're saying that we're both hurting. So you say you hurt, you think this will inspire change. It doesn't, because all the reaction you get is "well shit, she hurts too." It's not admirable to hurt. You're not admirable through what you experience, you're admirable through how you cope past it, and use it as a learning experience. Mikey and I both have been rejected numerous times by women, but is Mikey more admirable because he's been rejected more than me (because of age, we've already confirmed that Mikey's a cool dude)? No.

Am I more admirable because I've experienced a certain amount more pain in a certain way than you? No.

Are you more admirable? No.

No one is. It's not a contest. It's just not a contest. I would never wish my suffering upon anyone. You'd never do that to me. Mikey never would.

You haven't suffered like me or anyone else. You've suffered by yourself. The way you get past this is by saying "I hurt." And I say, "I hurt." And everyone says that they hurt too and we all go out of our way not to hurt each other because we wouldn't wish our suffering upon anyone else. And that's admirable. All of us are admirable because of this. Not because of the pain, but because of the way we're able to deal with it in a civil fashion, to acknowledge the pain.

I don't admire you. I don't admire anyone here. I don't admire myself. No one on here admires either of us. They never will. As long as "pain suffered" is treated like a measurement and not like a state of being, you will continue to not be admired for this.

Quite frankly, being admired is stupid. There's no real value in it. You can admire someone and not like them. Caring is better, methinks.

It's never ever gonna stop. We're on a metaphorical white water raft. Depression and hurt and pain is the water. And the only way we survive the ride is by holding on. And that's not admirable. It's certainly very kind. But not admirable. You're all doing a large part of keeping me out of that water. I can feel it. But I'm not off the raft, I'm hanging on, just barely.

And Mikey's hung on there. Way longer than me. That's very admirable. He takes the hit and keeps on going. That's admirable. He suffers immensely and refuses to take it out on us. That's admirable.

While I don't disagree with your premise in any way, because everyone goes through something they consider difficult and they are typically 'alone' while they go through it, I've always balked at the idea that because someone else faced fears I share it means I could.

Maybe it's my lack of faith in the concept of faith itself, but knowing someone else can do it only means they can, ultimately. In my head, anyway. It's one of those trains of thoughts I've had for so long that it doesn't feel like jerkbrain talk.

Or, maybe, I'm just a stupid.

I think that takes the words right out my mouth, honestly. OTG has accomplished what she accomplished, proving that she could do it. But the measure of success has nothing to do with how someone else succeeds. We're too unpredictable for that.

I'm going to use a far more extreme example, but every fucking time one of those inspirational asshats shows up, I want to scream. "My life was great, yours can also be great!" Fuck you! There's that evangelical Christian fucker with no limbs who sells books based on shit like that. And I want to punt him over a fence. I don't care if it's a hate crime.

Now, key difference being that OTG clearly wasn't trying to do that, she's simply expressing that anyone can succeed and that this in itself should be inspiring. She's not trying to make us buy anything (I hope not). I think it's just a philosophical disagreement at heart.

So no, diss not directed at OTG, just motivational assholes like Tony Robbins and Deepak Chopra, and I hate them both with a passion, and MapWater's phrasing reminded me of them.

After re-reading your post several times, nearly_takuan, I understand it now. First of all, I began by talking about people facing their rejection fears, I directly talked about that.  I augmented my point by saying that even if you are in a relationship you have to deal with fears.  And I'm sorry, saying that by virtue of being in a relationship your fears aren't as big a deal is yet another delightful fuck you to everyone going through shit.  No one feels anything as badly as someone who is single, is that your point?  Seriously?  

I'm gonna say this again: different kinds of pain. Being single is associated with rejection, being taken can result in neglect or abuse. Both have insecurity in common. That's it. There's kinds of pains that never happen with either one. The end.

You know it says a lot that you just had to grab at that straw and ignore all of my paragraphs addressing the fear of being single and approaching people.  I talked about facing my own personal fears when I was single too.  But that doesn't count I guess to you.  Because it's over now.  Because since I'm not longer single I cannot possibly know what it was like to be so alone that sometimes I wanted to kill myself.  So alone that I didn't want to step outside and see happy couples.  So alone that I assumed there was something fundamentally and completely uniquely wrong with me.  Nope, I have no empathy at all.

Because your problems don't make it any better. Just because you hurt doesn't make it a crime to feel hurt yourself. i don't know how many times I have to say that.

Deep down, you're empathetic to their issue. But your past fears don't help. All it's conveying is that you suffered too. And that's horrible and you didn't deserve it. But it doesn't help. The accidental subtext because of this is "your problems don't matter because it's not just you and I felt the same way at one point."

Do you understand how someone can interpret this as an insult even when you intend it to be beneficial? List solutions. Don't say "do this," because the answer will be "how?"

I'm sorry you hurt. But I say this again, what does your hurt have to do with Mikey apart from the fact that you both felt it at some point?  

Sigh.  So glad my story of overcoming my fears and facing them and working my ass off can so easily be dismissed by you. So glad you choose to cherry pick my attempt to demonstrate that everyone, even those people in relationships, have to face fears all the time and that being in a relationship won't therefore solve that problem for you.  

You know what. Time to take a break from this site.  I can't handle how much people want to vilify me here.  Maybe i deserve it.  I've definitely been way harsher of late.  It's clearly not helping, and I never meant to harm people here.  I really did want to help.  

You guys be kind to each other and yourselves.  Ttyl.

One more time: your problems have nothing to do with the topic. No one is trying to vilify you, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to explain how I disagree. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make you a bad person, or that people feel like you're a bad person. You're doing a lot of these behaviors inadvertently, it's pretty obvious. I might be younger than you but that doesn't mean I can't be insightful when I have to be.

No, relationships will solve nothing apart from a basic need. You're absolutely right. Still no shame in wanting one.

So I'm going to sum up, and I know that most of the responses have been about you, and if you've read this far, thanks for giving me a chance.

I'm going to clarify this once, and then you're never going to bring it up again, because it's the one thing you do that actually pisses me off, because it shows that despite your good intentions, you're not treating this issue properly:

No one, not Mikey, not me, not you, is stupid because they're lonely. It is not something you "grow up" from. It's something that can remain your entire life, even if you're constantly in relationships. We are all full aware of this. Loneliness is not dependent on whether or not you have someone to cuddle with, and I'm increasingly realizing this myself. That's the one thing I think you deliberately meant in your first post. And that offended me very much, enough to respond and try and offer my perspective on things.

You don't know what it's like to be perpetually ignored. I don't know what it's like to be "typically attractive" and ignored.

You will probably interpret all of this as a personal attack instead of the constructive criticism it's meant to be. So there's three things you need to learn right now, and after that you will never stop learning. Here they are:

1. Spouting our your issues, thinking that it will somehow make people feel better, is illogical.

2. Being wrong doesn't make you a bad person. You're wrong about literally everything you've said in this thread, you're not a bad person for it.

3. Taking criticism is a plus.

So what I expect from you now is to take these three things into account. This is purely my opinion, I'm one perspective out of seven billion. You are not vilified. I hope you come back. I do genuinely believe you want to help, you just don't know how. I hope that when you come back, we'll have both learned how to do that better.

And trust me, I'm not right about everything, but I've learned much from this forum, and those three things I listed are things I used to do (and you've apparently lurked a while, you should know). The entire forum would not hold back on me. They beat the bad impulses out of me, metaphorically. It made me a better person. Adversity leads to improvement.

And I don't like to be the asshole who does that to you, but you're in need of it. It's never too late. Come back when you're ready. Let's be friends then, shall we?

And remember, if you got something to bitch about, understand that the universe doesn't care and it doesn't care about anyone. And be sure to hit the "new topic" button. And I'd be glad to help any way I can, the same you'd do for me.

I'd suggest that knowing someone else has successfully faced your fear at least gives you data to examine and hypotheses to investigate. What skills did they use, and how can you develop them? Where do their circumstances and capacities diverge from yours? The more people you know who've done it, the higher the odds that at least one of them has something you can use.

I suppose that's a constructive way to look at it. I just wish I actually witnessed friends actually, I dunno, hitting on people or trying to pick someone up so I could actually see it. Learning theory is all fine and dandy, but I need to see thing in action to be confident in how I could react well to them.

Let me know when you do. I'm tired.

Observing works the best for me, anyway, at least in having positive human interactions. Being aware of social cues can help rectify your errors.

What am I talking about, you already know this. Ergh, I wanna be helpful but you're too smart.

But, in all seriousness, I'm sorry. I'm a fuck up, who while not beyond help, doesn't want help because it's too comfortable being a fuck up. The only difference I would say I have from most people I have personally seen in my position is that I've made myself so emotionally cold, I don't know what else to do but just be comfortable as is.

Active refusal is worse than passive inability, after all.

I got nothing. I've wasted my energy.

See you on the flip side, folks.

[OneTrueGuest]

You know what your problem is Glides?  You think you're the smartest person in the room.  You think you know everything and understand the world better than everyone.  Because since everything I wrote is precisely the kind of advice you loathe, it therefore must be the kind of advice everyone loathes.  I could tell you about the private conversations The Mikey and I have been having here, supportive, kind, understanding conversations where he seems to appreciate my sharing my personal experiences and thanks me for reminding him that he's not alone in his pain.  But that would be pointless because you wouldn't believe me since clearly no one ever feels better learning that other people have had it hard too. Nope. Never happens.

And what the fuck do I have to prove to you anyway you nasty little person.  YOU'VE wasted your energy.  YOU??  Fuck you.  Fuck you so fucking hard.  I have spent thousands of words over the last year trying to be helpful to you and you have done nothing but insult me and put me down.   Just because I don't do it the magical way you in particular like, suddenly I don't know how to help people??  I have helped so many fucking people over the years.  Online.  In person.  Right now on this forum as a matter of fact.  

And you, you who I haven't seen help anyone.  You who talk only ever about himself all the time dares to tell me that by relating anecdotes I am being self centred and unfeeling.  

Congratulations Glides.  You have made me cry so fucking hard right now.  And congratulations.  Thanks to you I'm officially done here.  I am not coming back.  I don't need this toxicity and I certainly do not need your condescension.  

Goodbye everyone.

[Guest]

OK, that's it, I need to say something. I've been reading this entire thread pretty actively since it started, I have to interject. My ego is calling for it. And I'm going to try my best to be objective and fair and not be a dick.

So please be patient with me, this is in chronological order of what I want to respond to.

One final note before I begin: I'd like to personally acknowledge Mikey for being a good sport about all this. I don't give you credit where it's due, I don't like doing it. But I have to say it: you're one of my favorite people on here for a reason. You have what seems like a limitless well of resistance to all the crap in your life and all the people trying to force their way of life into a brain that's only wired one way. All power to you for it.

Thank you, I appreciate that plenty. It wasn't easy leveling up and putting ranks in Will Saving Throws (D&D joke i regret nothing), I can tell you that much. Life's thrown me all kinds of crap that I could and couldn't deal with. But eventually, it came to a head that I HAD to deal with it whether I liked it or not.

But I will say this: *I* am the arbiter of who influences me. I AM THE ONE WHO DECIDES FOR MYSELF WHO'S ADVICE I WILL FOLLOW. And OTG's advice and her tough approach to this stuff is some of the best I've fucking read because she reminds me that I am indeed NOT alone. I FEEL alone, but I am for goddamn sure not alone, she's living PROOF OF THAT GODDAMN FACT.



And don't you EVER fucking forget that shit. Okay?

It's a different kind of pain. Both pains have equal value, but they're different. You're helped or you're not helped, the universe or God or Lord Xenu or whatever you wanna call the unknown factors that influence our lives. You will not be given any favors for any reason. Life will sucker punch you in the ass. And that's too fucking bad. You got help with your problems? Great. You did it alone? Great. The universe reacts the same way. Murphy's Law: whatever can happen will happen.

Murphy's Law is anything that can go wrong will go wrong; what you described is Chaos Theory. Get it together.

The conversation is not about you. The conversation began about Mikey getting angry about a guy being a creep to his sister. It was completely justified. Mikey has never come off as a creep, and he has enough social cues to understand how to start a conversation with a woman without being a creep.

So I repeat one more time: the conversation is not about you. You have been rejected constantly throughout your life. I can assure you that even if you're telling the truth, it's not a competition. You are not entitled to sympathy for this. I will not be sympathetic about it. I will acknowledge that you have suffered this pain, and that you didn't deserve it. You did nothing to deserve the pain you've been through. Nor have I, or Mikey, or Takuan, or anyone else here. We are all suffering together. If you'd like to talk about your pain, feel free to start a new topic about your pain. We are here to help Mikey.

I know this thread is to help me, but in order to help we sometimes need to look into ourselves and see what's applicable and point out that "Hey, you may want to look into $thing, so that way you can avoid/or do this $otherthing that is much more helpful than what you're doing now." We have to look into our experiences to give insight and empathize with what OTHERS are going through. OTG reminded me of a lot of things through here and PMs over the last few months. We really bonded, at least in my opinion we did. Sure I felt like she may have gotten upset at me but she wasn't, not for one second.

I appreciate your words about me and I thank you, but please I would appreciate it if you were more empathetic (understanding at an emotional level) to her past struggles. You know what you just did with this? You just said that all her hard work was in fucking vain, dude. That's NOT cool. Not for a second, that'd be like me saying all your progress was for nothing too, but I'm nicer than that, I'm bigger than that. Everyone here in this thread has probably read her posts and understood that what she was saying was out of her desire to help my silly butt.

We've confirmed through numerous talks on the forum that attractiveness means nothing. That it's all the inside that counts. I don't know how true that is, but is you being typically attractive make you more entitled to love and attention and romance than the rest of us? Supposed to get attention? There is no supposed. We're all supposed to get attention. We're here because we don't. So you fit right in, then.

No. You misunderstand, the reason she says "supposed to" is because of the cultural and societal messages typically attractive women receive. The messages SHE'S RECEIVED. OTG's working hard to look pretty, to get attention from us dudes but nobody's giving it to her, just like nobody's giving me attention either (yes, I also think I'm pretty ;3). It hurts her that she's putting on this much effort for very little in return, but goddamn it, she's still going at it.

I could counter with a typical "I'm ugly why does no one love me" rant, but I'm not going to do that today. I understand you said this out of anger and not out of any maliciousness towards Mikey, but it still implies, albeit accidentally, that your feelings matter more than his because you consider yourself to be attractive and Mikey doesn't.

I don't find myself attractive sometimes. But when I style my hair, put on the Wayfarers and wear my favorite pair of jeans... watch out, I feel like I can conquer the world. When I wear my square-leg swimming trunks, despite my flabby belly, I feel like a Greek god after I've swam 1000-yds in 50 minutes.

She definitely is NOT saying her feelings matter more than mine. They matter just as much as yours or mine, in fact, she was demonstrating the fucked-up-ness of how unfair life can be and how we need to deal with it much like she has.

And he wasn't real.

Point: missed.

The question remains: what does this have to do with Mikey? Where's the advice in this? "I did it, you can do it to!" We can certainly live and dissect and strive to go farther, it's proven to be very beneficial. And right now, while my jerkbrain isn't affecting my thoughts and my mind, I can see the progress I have made. Have I not faced my fears and the bullshit? Haven't beaten it, maybe I never will, maybe I'll always be like this. I don't know.

What she's getting at (and others are too) is that, yes you can do it too, but you're the one who needs to WANT to do it and be willing to let the suck wash over you.

i mean, main question I got, since you mentioned it: are you better than me because you're prettier than me? Are you better than me because of your superior skills? Wonderful that you're pretty and you've got skills, but I'm missing how this relates to Mikey.

She isn't saying that she has better/superior skills to mine, she can deal with shit BETTER than me. She's saying that you don't get there overnight. It relates to me in that, OTG is reminding me that this is not easy. This is not an easy path and that there WILL be a lot of bumps on the way to where I want to be. Whether it's a professional position or personal position.

And again, you say not to do something and then do that exact thing. You're negating his problems by listing your own. I know this is instinctual. This is learned behavior and it can be unlearned. It's insensitive and you don't know that. And trust me, it's going to make it a lot easier to express yourself if you're not spouting off your issues.

She's not negating my feelings. She's telling me to buck-up and get the chip off my shoulder. I'm usually pretty good at it, but when I'm not feeling well, it gets a little harder. I just sometimes need a good slap in the face or a laugh.

Deep down, you're empathetic to their issue. But your past fears don't help. All it's conveying is that you suffered too. And that's horrible and you didn't deserve it. But it doesn't help. The accidental subtext because of this is "your problems don't matter because it's not just you and I felt the same way at one point."

You misunderstand again, she's reminding me that I'm not alone. OTG, even as a woman that "should" have it all, doesn't. She's demonstrating that she is not perfect and that she's suffered as badly as we have, again to remind me in particular of how silly I sound. Which in retrospect any time I write something when I was depressed makes me cringe at myself for being a dummy.

Do you understand how someone can interpret this as an insult even when you intend it to be beneficial? List solutions. Don't say "do this," because the answer will be "how?"

That ain't insulting! I've had worse shit tossed at me, that ain't insulting. For example, my boss was called a Tech Lab Nazi for telling an instructor to quiet down when the instructor should fucking know the rules of our lab when he himself IS of Germanic descent.

You will probably interpret all of this as a personal attack instead of the constructive criticism it's meant to be. So there's three things you need to learn right now, and after that you will never stop learning. Here they are:

1. Spouting our your issues, thinking that it will somehow make people feel better, is illogical.

2. Being wrong doesn't make you a bad person. You're wrong about literally everything you've said in this thread, you're not a bad person for it.

3. Taking criticism is a plus.

Excuse me, but what the fuck. Do you know how condescending you sound? OTG wasn't trying to be right OR wrong!!

And I don't like to be the asshole who does that to you, but you're in need of it. It's never too late. Come back when you're ready. Let's be friends then, shall we?

She didn't need anything. Especially not like this, dude.

You know what your problem is Glides?  You think you're the smartest person in the room.  You think you know everything and understand the world better than everyone.  Because since everything I wrote is precisely the kind of advice you loathe, it therefore must be the kind of advice everyone loathes.  I could tell you about the private conversations The Mikey and I have been having here, supportive, kind, understanding conversations where he seems to appreciate my sharing my personal experiences and thanks me for reminding him that he's not alone in his pain.  But that would be pointless because you wouldn't believe me since clearly no one ever feels better learning that other people have had it hard too.  Nope.  Never happens.  

Every word here, is absolutely true. We dribble that emotional ball back & forth every now and again because... well, she's just that cool. She's right, it's completely illogical to think that I'm the only one who's ever felt that way, well, I'm not. Just feels that way, but I'm really not.

And what the fuck do I have to prove to you anyway you nasty little person.  YOU'VE wasted your energy.  YOU??  Fuck you.  Fuck you so fucking hard.  I have spent thousands of words over the last year trying to be helpful to you and you have done nothing but insult me and put me down.   Just because I don't do it the magical way you in particular like, suddenly I don't know how to help people??  I have helped so many fucking people over the years.  Online.  In person.  Right now on this forum as a matter of fact.  

And you, you who I haven't seen help anyone.  You who talk only ever about himself all the time dares to tell me that by relating anecdotes I am being self centred and unfeeling.  

Congratulations Glides.  You have made me cry so fucking hard right now.  And congratulations.  Thanks to you I'm officially done here.  I am not coming back.  I don't need this toxicity and I certainly do not need your condescension.  

Goodbye everyone.

And like that, you've driven away a beautiful soul, Glides. I'm being serious here. OTG was awesome, while you may not have agreed with her... it wouldn't have hurt to have been kinder to her. She never did anything wrong, or commit any serious transgressions.

All I can say is... dude, I'm disappointed.

[nearly_takuan]

Wasn't sure if I should post this response or not, but I've kinda decided—what with things getting more heated partly as a result of my own comments—I should try one last time to explain myself, even though the intended recipient is no longer present.

nearly_takuan - what do you mean by that?  That sentence literally made no sense to me.  Could you rephrase.

Even people who do well in relationships are dealing with something else in their lives that is really difficult and scary for them.  None of us are ever going to live this life free of any stress, anxiety, self doubt and bad things happening.  I think what is almost more important for a lot of people here to think about is not so much solving all the problems, but how to emotionally deal with the bad things that happen in life.  That's what most of us learn how to do.  We don't live lives free of feeling uncomfortable feelings, we've just learned how to handle them in a fashion that doesn't cripple us nor make us paralysed to live our lives.  

It's nothing particularly unique to feel bad feelings, every single person on the planet feels bad feelings.  It's how one handles them that makes the difference.

The way I handle 'em, if I may quote Ringo, is that I get by with a little help from my friends. Which generally amounts to a couple of hours per week each of us spends on favors for others and/or just generally hanging out and providing Platonic companionship. Even my roommate and I don't see much of each other outside of Sundays, and that's only more true now that as of today I have work again! (Sincere yay!)

It is at this point that I realize I may have misinterpreted your initial statement and must ask a clarifying question: is there a difference, in your view, between "people who do well" and "people who are doing well"? Because to me, the former language implies an almost effortless affinity for success on the part of the subject, whereas the latter is merely a description of state. Someone who "is doing well" may have had to struggle until they lucked into something. Whereas I think of someone who "does well" as someone who just generally doesn't have problems relating to relationships, by definition.

Not only was getting the job I got pretty much a direct result of the support of at least one close friend, but I owe at least some of my refusal to give up on looking for the "right" job to supportive friends. A few friendly words of encouragement, or sometimes a hopeful lead or suggestion, was sometimes all it took to get me searching in earnest again. But of course at other times, sometimes for several consecutive weeks, I just had to get by on my own and make myself do all the applications and job-things and whatnot, and that absolutely sucked—not least because that was also sometimes a catalyst for thoughts along the lines of "so supposing I did get a job, what would be the point?" and...well, you know. I did it. But when I think what that might have been like if the entire year had been exactly like...July, or whenever it was, ...yeesh. I don't know true misery.

So...I can be reasonably certain that a small set of give-and-take Platonic relationships (which, again, manifest for a couple of hours a week on average) helped a lot with my non-romantic problems. How much more, then, would it help to have a partner you can actually open up to in such a situation? Someone you could rely on for fairly consistent support? I'm only guessing, obviously. And I don't mean to say that partners have some kind of supernatural ability to be unfailingly and unreservedly supportive, but there is in some sense more to a romantic relationship—there's something that separates a Significant Other from a Friend, whether or not there are "benefits" involved.

There's a second way I handle my problems: I solve them. And I will freely admit that I have an easier time solving certain classes of problems (especially logistics, lifestyle, etc.) than someone with less cash, education, intuition, or straight-up luck, and I will also sometimes gripe that I have a harder time of it than someone whose prenatal ultrasound indicated the presence of valuable utensils. Why is the "romantic success" axis somehow off-limits for similar comparisons?

Sorry if any of the above is overly tautological / circular. I do seem to get myself in trouble when I omit too many things that only seem obvious to me, though.

[ReploidArmada]

Okay, this thread has resulted in a number of angry rants and a kind, supportive member of our community leaving us for good. Mods, could we please close this topic? It doesn't seem to be helping us any to leave it open at this point. And, personally, I think all of us involved here could use a bit (or a lot, perhaps) of time to calm down.

[fakely mctest]

<mod>Thread is closed, sorry about that guys.  I'd encourage you to take a look at the newest mod announcement post here.</mod>

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