Re: Gaining Empathy? I guess

[eselle28]

I always find it strange that people think being empathetic=risk of being a pushover when in my experience it is the opposite because empathetic people tend to be better at seeing the underlying emotions and causes for behaviors and thus tend to be better at detecting and avoiding manipulation and exploitation earlier in a relationship. Unempathetic people are more likely to use broad, stereotypical explanations for behaviors and motives and miss the individual motivations for behaviors which makes them more vulnerable to a good manipulator.

For a geek example of an empathetic, think Bene Gesserit, possibly the best depiction of the power of empathy in fiction.

From what I have seen online the Bene Gesserit are machiavellian power mongers and rapists via imprinting. Maybe I have to read Dune to get a better idea of their empathy, but they look like psychopaths from what I see of them.  

I think that's reboot's point. Empathy isn't the same as goodness. It's a tool that helps you understand others' behavior. You can use that in moral ways like a therapist or a social worker might, in manipulative ways like a Bene Gesserit might, or in morally neutral ways like the average person on the dating scene might. I think most of us here would be encouraging the moral or neutral kinds of empathy, but regardless, it's not a trait of the pushover.

[nolorn]

I always find it strange that people think being empathetic=risk of being a pushover when in my experience it is the opposite because empathetic people tend to be better at seeing the underlying emotions and causes for behaviors and thus tend to be better at detecting and avoiding manipulation and exploitation earlier in a relationship. Unempathetic people are more likely to use broad, stereotypical explanations for behaviors and motives and miss the individual motivations for behaviors which makes them more vulnerable to a good manipulator.

For a geek example of an empathetic, think Bene Gesserit, possibly the best depiction of the power of empathy in fiction.

From what I have seen online the Bene Gesserit are machiavellian power mongers and rapists via imprinting. Maybe I have to read Dune to get a better idea of their empathy, but they look like psychopaths from what I see of them.  

I think that's reboot's point. Empathy isn't the same as goodness. It's a tool that helps you understand others' behavior. You can use that in moral ways like a therapist or a social worker might, in manipulative ways like a Bene Gesserit might, or in morally neutral ways like the average person on the dating scene might. I think most of us here would be encouraging the moral or neutral kinds of empathy, but regardless, it's not a trait of the pushover.

yeah that is cunning, empathy by definition is:
the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
knowing a person's motives and feelings, awknoledging their personhood, then crushing them and treating them as pawns is not empathetic, it is psychotic and sadistic.

[eselle28]

I think that's reboot's point. Empathy isn't the same as goodness. It's a tool that helps you understand others' behavior. You can use that in moral ways like a therapist or a social worker might, in manipulative ways like a Bene Gesserit might, or in morally neutral ways like the average person on the dating scene might. I think most of us here would be encouraging the moral or neutral kinds of empathy, but regardless, it's not a trait of the pushover.

yeah that is cunning, empathy by definition is:
the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also :  the capacity for this
knowing a person's motives and feelings, awknoledging their personhood, then crushing them and treating them as pawns is not empathetic, it is psychotic and sadistic.

I believe that my definition of empathy fits well within the definition that you quoted. This vicarious experience is what allows you to fully understand others' behavior. Notably, the fact that you vicariously experience and understand someone's actions doesn't mean you have to approve of them or agree with them. You can understand and identify with someone's behavior, draw comparisons to times when you were behaving in negative ways, and decide to criticize or avoid someone on the basis of that.

People who are psychotic and sadistic can be very empathetic. However, I don't think it's very helpful to focus on negative uses of empathy. There are many positive and neutral ones that don't involve being a pushover. You don't seem to be very interested in exploring what those might be. Is there a reason for that?

[nolorn]

I believe that my definition of empathy fits well within the definition that you quoted. This vicarious experience is what allows you to fully understand others' behavior. Notably, the fact that you vicariously experience and understand someone's actions doesn't mean you have to approve of them or agree with them. You can understand and identify with someone's behavior, draw comparisons to times when you were behaving in negative ways, and decide to criticize or avoid someone on the basis of that.

People who are psychotic and sadistic can be very empathetic. However, I don't think it's very helpful to focus on negative uses of empathy. There are many positive and neutral ones that don't involve being a pushover. You don't seem to be very interested in exploring what those might be. Is there a reason for that?

Oh yeah, empathy can make the world a great place, make you a good friend, but can it get you a date? Even your definition of empathy? no

I really wish I did not have a desire to date or want companionship. I hate this vulnerability, this weakness, how even in the best of times, the saddness of lonliness comes back and ruins the moment for me. It has gotten to the point where I cannot watch any kind of movie where romance is even a peripheral part of the plot- watching a movie like "The Fault in our stars" would make me suicidal and ill.

I envy Data from Star Trek, especially his inability to feel emotions, and find Roddney's proselytizing of him wanting to be 'a real boy' to be tiresome and irritating

[UristMcBunny]

I think I might be confused about what definition you're using for "cunning", nolorn.  Because my understanding of cunning is that it means basically what the dictionary definition is:

"having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion."

"skill in achieving one's ends by deceit."

To me, empathy - which you defined as "the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" is very much in line with what I've been describing.  All that description states is that a person with empathy is capable of understanding and intuiting the perspective of others.  The definition states exactly nothing about what an empathic person then does with that information.

And in my experience empathy cannot "get you" a date because there is no such thing as A thing that will get you other people's love, attraction or interest. No such thing like that exists. But what empathy can do is increase your ability to connect emotionally with other people, to learn to read and correctly intuit their emotions and needs, and respond to them accordingly. Which improves your ability to get along with people. Which increases your chances of meeting and getting along with someone.

[Mel]

Nolorn, it sounds as though you are already quite convinced that empathy is not useful to you, and that your main concerns are finding clear strategies for succeeding at dating or figuring out how to stop wanting to date. Perhaps we should leave off this discussion here, and if you want to start a thread where people can advise you on what may help you find dates in the Meeting People and Dating area, and/or a thread about how to minimize the longing to have a romantic relationship in (I think it'd be most appropriate) the Health and Wellbeing area, you're welcome to. I think that would result in more productive discussions.

[nolorn]

Nolorn, it sounds as though you are already quite convinced that empathy is not useful to you, and that your main concerns are finding clear strategies for succeeding at dating or figuring out how to stop wanting to date.  Perhaps we should leave off this discussion here, and if you want to start a thread where people can advise you on what may help you find dates in the Meeting People and Dating area, and/or a thread about how to minimize the longing to have a romantic relationship in (I think it'd be most appropriate) the Health and Wellbeing area, you're welcome to. I think that would result in more productive discussions.

Yeah sure, was thinking about doing that, I'll see if there is something already there.

I get the impression that you don't like me very much, that's fine, we don't have to like everyone, but if I have unintentionally offended you I apologize, I meant no disrespect.

If I am wrong, pardon my ignorance.

[Mel]

Yeah sure, was thinking about doing that, I'll see if there is something already there.

I get the impression that you don't like me very much, that's fine, we don't have to like everyone, but if I have unintentionally offended you I apologize, I meant no disrespect.

If I am wrong, pardon my ignorance.

I don't really know you, so I can't say whether I like you or not. This is the only topic you've spoken about in the forum so far, and while speaking about it you've said a number of unpleasant and/or generalizing statements about women. As a woman, I can't say that's exactly enjoyable to read. And it doesn't seem to be helping you, either--you seem to be getting frustrated with some of the responses you're getting. I was hoping that switching to topics that could head in a more constructive direction, you might be able to get advice that is actually useful to you, and we could divert from a train of thought that seems to be bringing out a lot of thoughts others may find unpleasant. Reasonable?

[kleenestar]

I still don't see how this will make me more attractive or successful in getting a woman to say yes to a date with me -maybe in some abstract way I will be a better husband/boyfriend- but as someone more successful with women in terms of dating success? no. Will the potential woman who I have a relationship with take advantage of and use me? yes and my empathy for her will do little to stop this.  

I guess women and men have very different challenges when it comes to hetero dating, but empathy and decency towards others is something you practice to satisfy your own self and your own principals, not because it will make you attractive or successful with the opposite sex.

Like I said, I'm not going to try to argue you into having empathy. I do just want to say that yes, in my experience having empathy will increase the odds that people are willing to spend time around you in any capacity, and will increase the odds that those people will be decent and compassionate human beings themselves. It's okay if you don't understand why. If you decide that you'd like to understand why I believe these things - beyond the fact that I see it play out in practice around me all the time - I would be happy to share, but you'll need to ask.

I actually do agree pretty strongly with your last point. You can't be an empathetic and decent person in order to get a date. But that doesn't mean that developing those parts of yourself won't change your life! It'll change who you are and how you behave, which in turn will change the way other people treat you. You just can't assume you have direct control of what that means.

[Conreezy]

I always find it strange that people think being empathetic=risk of being a pushover when in my experience it is the opposite because empathetic people tend to be better at seeing the underlying emotions and causes for behaviors and thus tend to be better at detecting and avoiding manipulation and exploitation earlier in a relationship. Unempathetic people are more likely to use broad, stereotypical explanations for behaviors and motives and miss the individual motivations for behaviors which makes them more vulnerable to a good manipulator.

For a geek example of an empathetic, think Bene Gesserit, possibly the best depiction of the power of empathy in fiction.

From what I have seen online the Bene Gesserit are machiavellian power mongers and rapists via imprinting. Maybe I have to read Dune to get a better idea of their empathy, but they look like psychopaths from what I see of them.  

I wouldn't say psychopaths so much as extremely cynical regarding the use of religion and political power, especially in the early books. I think the Honored Matres were the ones doing all the sexual imprinting, though.

[Chickpea Sarada]

Nolorn, it sounds as though you are already quite convinced that empathy is not useful to you, and that your main concerns are finding clear strategies for succeeding at dating or figuring out how to stop wanting to date.  Perhaps we should leave off this discussion here, and if you want to start a thread where people can advise you on what may help you find dates in the Meeting People and Dating area, and/or a thread about how to minimize the longing to have a romantic relationship in (I think it'd be most appropriate) the Health and Wellbeing area, you're welcome to. I think that would result in more productive discussions.

Yeah sure, was thinking about doing that, I'll see if there is something already there.

I get the impression that you don't like me very much, that's fine, we don't have to like everyone, but if I have unintentionally offended you I apologize, I meant no disrespect.

If I am wrong, pardon my ignorance.

I've been hesitating to say anything for quite a while because of how...unpleasant this felt. And I hope this isn't going too far.

Throughout this thread, the other posters have been saying something along the lines of, "Having empathy makes you better able to understand and consider the feelings of others." And your responses seemed to be saying, "I don't want to understand or be considerate of women, I want to get women. Empathy won't give me what I want."

I can't speak for anyone else here, but that is what offended me.

[Girlande]

I took a look at your photos, nolorn. When you say that you're ugly, need to lose weight, and need plastic surgery, I have to say: I think you're crazy. You must have some pretty serious depression or body dysmorphia going on, because you look totally normal, cute, and dateable to me, at least going by looks. Where I live, northern California, there's a blue zillion of guys who look just like you going around with women. Whatever is holding you back, it's not your looks.

I have to agree that it's very off-putting, as a woman, to hear that you don't want to understand what my experience is like because it won't get you anything.

[nolorn]

snip

Interesting, I did not think of it that way- for NANOWRIMO I think will will write a story about an empathic serial killer who enjoys experienceing the final emotions of his victims. Like a more effective Deanna Troi mixed with Hannibal lecter. Probably been done before but the concept intruiges me

snip

thanks for your patience, I realize that men and women have different problems when it comes to dating- who has it hard really depends on you perspective and experience, and you can't honestly say one has it worse than the other. As for your experiences with young love, I appreciate the offer but will have to decline. Romance in all its forms has become a painful and unpleasant genre for me and I do not wish to compromize myself so.

snip

Thanks, I just have been single and dateless forever and I was looking for something to blame, and looks are easy to do lay the blame on. Still I'm probably always going to be dissatisfied with how I look and I will have to learn to live with that.

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