Glides' Adventures in Therapy

[Guest]

Because I don't trust myself to interpret the damn shrink alone.

So whenever I go to therapy, I'm gonna ask about it here so I'm not completely out of my depth. You can talk about it if you want.


SESSION ONE:

6/10/2015

Therapist is unbelievably hot. Claims to be in early thirties, looks like she's younger than me. It's very unsettling and made it difficult to talk during the first session. I was avoiding eye contact the whole time, shifting around in my seat, I looked like I'd stolen cookies from the jar or whatever shit kids did back in the day.

She was asking about my depression and the panic attacks and whenever I'd say anything shocking (which was often), I noticed that she'd jerk back in her seat a little and start furiously writing on her notepad. She seemed strangely fascinated by me, I'm so used to thinking my shit is normal.

But it didn't seem like my shit scared her, like it did with the other one. She seemed like she was watching a really good movie and would lean forward, genuinely interested by whatever I was saying. I was describing suicide attempts completely straight-faced, like it was a hobby (which it technically is).

I had no emotional inflection whatsoever. She asked a lot about my parents and nearly burst out laughing when I told her about my mom threatening to put me away when I told her I wanted to kill myself

"What parent would logically do that? Suicidal ideation isn't something you're supposed to go to the nuthouse for."

"My mom thinks it's the same as being insane."

"Oh."

She reccomended drugs and group therapy sessions. I decided I'd consider the drugs, but no fucking group therapy. I'm trying to minimize the amount of people learning how fucked up I am.

She asked why I called her office, I pretended I'd called in a daze (technically true, I called for a session with one of the worst migraines of my life).

Real reason is because that girl I was in love with had had sex with some other guy and boasted about how good he was, and I took it worse than I thought. She was literally taunting me about how good it was and how I couldn't have any of it.

I neglected to tell the shrink that because a depressive episode started over a girl is fucking stupid.

Today on Facebook, that girl made a post about supporting the police in Ferguson and Baltimore and made lots of mentions of "thugs" and "hoodlums," and I realized she was a racist and hated black people. That helped a bit.

Anyway, shrink started asking about my romantic history and that was the first time that I expressed any emotion. I went from discussing suicide like a business proposition to awkwardly stuttering and fidgeting in my seat.

Shrink gives me a weird smile and says "We're talking about this in detail next time." Fuck you.

Weirdest moment of the whole session was after I described my last panic attack, which was public and people saw. She literally began bouncing in her seat and said "Wow, you're so fascinating!" But not with a mocking tone, like she was excited to talk about all of this. It's weird behavior.

I spent most of the session avoiding her gaze so I only had her voice to see what emotions she was expressing. She'd randomly start going off about how she would do therapy sessions and sounded extremely enthusiastic and happy the whole time, which is so strange to hear someone so excited about such morbid shit.

But she is unbelievably hot and that still makes me uncomfortable, but she was nice for the most part. I expressed a desire not to go again because of how uncomfortable I felt, but she made me promise to give her two months before I gave up. Fuck it, I can talk to a really cute girl for two months. I'm literally paying for that.

I hung out with a friend afterwards, and I was telling him about her, and he suddenly says with no context, "Glides, you have a phobia of hot women, and you're literally the only person I know who does this." I got offended but said nothing.

He then took me clothes shopping for the second time in my life. We went to American Eagle. I found what I wanted in five minutes while he and the rest of the people who showed up kept on obsessing for nearly an hour.

As I walked out of the fitting room, two really bitchy girls took one look at me, laughed, and said "God, look how deformed he is." I flashed them my trademark Glides Is A Monster Look and they blanched. Hmm, I wonder why I'm unattractive to women. Hmm.

So there you have it. My therapist is unbelievably hot. I don't really like that because I'm unbelievably uncomfortable around them. I literally apologized to her for not opening up during the first session. She looked sad at that point.

"I hope that over time, we can develop a relationship of our own so you feel comfortable being completely open with me."

Something about her is odd, I don't know what. It is the longest interaction I've had with a woman since I went on that date with that coworker...which I did talk about.

Scratch that, most awkward part of the day was this question: "So what was your first thought when you found out your coworker was attracted to you?"

"'Why me?'"

I hate looking like Freddy Krueger

[Enail]

It's hard for me to know what to make of it, since I wasn't there to see what kind of 'odd' it was to form an interpretation. Leaving aside your discomfort about her being hot (which I get the impression you don't find so uncomfortable that it makes therapy impossible?), what was your gut feeling about her reactions that seemed weird? Did it make you uncomfortable, or just uncertain?

I think a therapist with a sense of humour is probably a better match for you than one who seems alarmed by the serious stuff, so I'd call that part a plus.

If you do decide to give meds a try and she's not the prescriber, be sure to tell whoever is prescribing that you have concerns about suicide.

Good job going, Glides!

[Guest]

Yeah, kudos for having the stones to stick it out with therapy. Wish I could do it myself.

[PintsizeBro]

Good for you going to therapy.

Having a depressive episode start because someone you care about was egregiously mean to you isn't stupid, it's completely normal.

What is up with all these girls calling you up and talking about their boyfriends' dicks? This isn't the first time you've talked about that happening to you. I've never heard of this happening to anyone else. Like, ever. If I saw that happen in a movie, I'd say it was unrealistic.

[Guest]

Good for you going to therapy.

Having a depressive episode start because someone you care about was egregiously mean to you isn't stupid, it's completely normal.

What is up with all these girls calling you up and talking about their boyfriends' dicks? This isn't the first time you've talked about that happening to you. I've never heard of this happening to anyone else. Like, ever. If I saw that happen in a movie, I'd say it was unrealistic.

Well, to be fair, all of that was the same girl. She has this thing where she tries to get me jealous by boasting about all the great sex she's having with all these guys with giant cocks, and then i get jealous.

And to think I thought I was in love with this broad.

[PintsizeBro]

That makes a little more sense then. That chick has issues of her own, dude. What she is doing is not normal. She definitely wants your attention, though I couldn't tell you why. The sex is probably not as good and the cocks are not as big as she's telling you.

[Guest]

That makes a little more sense then. That chick has issues of her own, dude. What she is doing is not normal. She definitely wants your attention, though I couldn't tell you why. The sex is probably not as good and the cocks are not as big as she's telling you.

If I was into cuckolding, I'd have the time of my life. But I'm not, so I'm not.

Very love-hate between the two of us. Very curious if that's going to manifest itself anytime soon. Kinda hope it does, I wanna be the best lover she's ever had just to spite her.

Anyway, that's off-topic, and I'm worried about breaking down if the shrink asks about it. Needless to say, I know some fucked up women.

[Guest]

Session Two:

She kept asking questions about being sexually assaulted, to the point where I was visibly trying not to cry. I kept fidgeting around the entire time, my voice was cold and dead and my body language was all over the place.

Then she kept asking questions about my self-talk, and I admitted that it was constant and happens all the damn time.

Then she asked a lot about my social anxiety and whether or not my goal was to improve myself socially.

"Oh no, I don't have the skill sets required to do that. I want to get the best possible life I can get, nothing unrealistic."

She kinda just gave me this long strange look.

I'm not liking this, she keeps asking me so many awkward questions. Last shrink did nothing like this. She just keeps bringing up shit that bothers me.

[reboot]

Bringing up shit that bothers you is the job of a therapist. No point in talking about things that are not problems.

Try writing out a list of what you want to get out of therapy and the issues you want to focus on. If the self talk level is fine with you, leave it off the list. If you do not want help with the sexual assault aftermath, leave it off the list.If social anxiety is not something you want to deal with, leave it off the list. Then give the list to her.

[Enail]

I agree with Reboot that bringing up the tough stuff is the job of therapists, and I think even if it feels bad in the short-term, it's probably a good thing to do. That said, do keep in mind that you are in charge, and if you really aren't okay with talking about something or want to take a break from it, you can say so. Don't overuse that power, you're going to need to push yourself on some of this stuff, but the power is yours.

[Guest]

Thirding reboot and enail. I actually never really got anything out of any of my therapists until months in, when their asking me over and over again about the really hard stuff broke through and I could let it out and face it and deal with it and cry and figure out what it really looked like. It may be that what you're reacting to is a sense that she's going too fast, in which case, I vote say it, as in, "I feel uncomfortable talking about this; I don't know if we've established enough trust." Or it may be that she's making you see or feel truths that are painful.

Here's a metaphor that may or may not help. When I hold feelings and thoughts in, they're a tight spiral of ugliness that colors my whole day. But they're controlled, and they don't actively hurt. It's like when my arm is numb because I've been lying on it. It's a bad thing. It's unhealthy. I need blood in my arm. But when I start to unwind, I PANIC. Because it's like lifting a weight that's too heavy and holding it too long. I can't control the release, and once it starts to move, I am legitimately afraid that it will kill me. It hurts incredibly.

I felt like that a lot in therapy. Like I was riding the tiger of my pain, and my therapist was carefully helping me unknot my fingers. "I'll help with the tiger," she says. "I can help control the tiger. But you have to let go." The buildup to the release always hurt much, much, much more than the day-to-day of living with the pain. But after the release, it was so much better.

[PintsizeBro]

Adding my voice to the chorus that therapy is difficult.

If you had injured your knee and were in physical therapy to rehabilitate it, that therapy would be grueling and painful. There's just no way around it. In your case, you're in talk therapy to rehabilitate your emotions, and that too will be grueling and painful.

When I was in therapy regularly, at the end of the session I often felt like I'd spent the hour puking my guts up. And in a way I had. But while puking is gross and uncomfortable and you feel spectacularly shitty after it's over, its purpose is to get whatever is making you sick out.

[Guest]

Bringing up shit that bothers you is the job of a therapist. No point in talking about things that are not problems.

Try writing out a list of what you want to get out of therapy and the issues you want to focus on. If the self talk level is fine with you, leave it off the list. If you do not want help with the sexual assault aftermath, leave it off the list.If social anxiety is not something you want to deal with, leave it off the list. Then give the list to her.

In all honesty, what I want is either completely unrealistic (i.e. getting a girlfriend, having an average sex life) or unbelievably basic (no more depression, waking up without the urge to do things that will get me banned again). There's not a single achievable goal on that hypothetical list. I'd literally be walking in with a piece of paper that said

"I DON'T WANNA BE SAD NO MORE"

Both sessions so far, I've felt worse just because she's bringing up shit that reminds me of my inherent patheticness. I can't quite express in words my own self-hatred, I was only able to say that I don't like my appearance and my social skills.

Thirding reboot and enail.  I actually never really got anything out of any of my therapists until months in, when their asking me over and over again about the really hard stuff broke through and I could let it out and face it and deal with it and cry and figure out what it really looked like.  It may be that what you're reacting to is a sense that she's going too fast, in which case, I vote say it, as in, "I feel uncomfortable talking about this; I don't know if we've established enough trust."  Or it may be that she's making you see or feel truths that are painful.

I don't want to cry, though. That's the one thing I've been focusing on. Literally no one except my parents and that bitch I thought I was in love with have even seen me cry, and my parents generally would just tell me to "man up" and to grow some balls whenever I did in front of them.

Now, the shrink knows partially what narcissistic assholes they are (threatening to put me in a mental hospital despite not having any qualifiers and knowing it is pretty shitty to do to a prepubescent child), so it's not like I haven't opened up about anything. I've been opening up, mostly out of apathy.

But above all, I have a thing about crying in front of people. I'm scared shitless that I'll be judged as a man for it (and I've told the shrink that too, that as a man I'm not allowed to emotionally express myself, and she was forced to agree with this. The Deep South sucks ass), and I don't want her seeing me like that.

[Enail]

In all honesty, what I want is either completely unrealistic (i.e. getting a girlfriend, having an average sex life) or unbelievably basic (no more depression, waking up without the urge to do things that will get me banned again). There's not a single achievable goal on that hypothetical list. I'd literally be walking in with a piece of paper that said

"I DON'T WANNA BE SAD NO MORE"

The first set, I'd think it would make more sense to pick goals from aspects you can control related to those outcomes. No one therapies their way to a girlfriend - but you can therapy your way to being less scared of women you're attracted to, sort out some of your conflicting feelings around sex and status, etc.  

The second set, scale them down into more manageable ambitions. Maybe you can't achieve "no more depression" in the immediate future, but you can achieve "handle criticism or negative feedback from teachers without spiralling into depressive episodes" or "be able to do something that depression currently keeps you from doing." Maybe not "waking up without the urge to do things that will get you banned" yet, but "being able to set aside that urge to focus on other things more easily" or "have the urge but be able to feel it without considering acting on it." And so forth. And when you're managing that bit pretty well, you can work on another bit. One piece at a time.

You want to see it in black or white, impossible or easily fixed, but that's not how people work.

Both sessions so far, I've felt worse just because she's bringing up shit that reminds me of my inherent patheticness. I can't quite express in words my own self-hatred, I was only able to say that I don't like my appearance and my social skills.

That's a fine start. You don't have to be able to say everything right away. Explain what you can, and go from there.

I don't want to cry, though. That's the one thing I've been focusing on. Literally no one except my parents and that bitch I thought I was in love with have even seen me cry, and my parents generally would just tell me to "man up" and to grow some balls whenever I did in front of them.

Now, the shrink knows partially what narcissistic assholes they are (threatening to put me in a mental hospital despite not having any qualifiers and knowing it is pretty shitty to do to a prepubescent child), so it's not like I haven't opened up about anything. I've been opening up, mostly out of apathy.

But above all, I have a thing about crying in front of people. I'm scared shitless that I'll be judged as a man for it (and I've told the shrink that too, that as a man I'm not allowed to emotionally express myself, and she was forced to agree with this. The Deep South sucks ass), and I don't want her seeing me like that.

Therapists see lots of people cry. She's probably seen a gazillion men cry. But try not to worry about it too much; it might help to let it out if you do, but it's also not the end of the world if you don't want to or can't.

[Guest]

Session Three:

Shrink suggested that I go to a mental hospital, for group therapy sessions. I immediately refuted the suggestion, I will never go to those places. I know how abusive and disgusting those places are. I told her how offended I was by her suggesting that. "I can't even believe that you'd think I'm that kind of crazy."

She took it in stride. I don't think the shrink likes me very much, but I haven't been particularly nice to her. Not mean, just cold like I normally treat people.

She tried talking about distorted thinking, but I refuted that too, explaining that my problem wasn't that my thoughts are distorted, it's that my thoughts are entirely true.

When I told her about my acquaintances, her first comment was "You hang out with a lot of assholes."

She claims that I have very distorted thinking, the problem is that I can't disprove a single one of the thoughts.

She got pretty upset when I admitted that I've been avoiding people for the last couple weeks. Aside from school, I've done nothing but sleep most of the time. My memory is unbelievably foggy.

I have no motivation to do anything, honestly.

Needless to say, therapy is a giant waste of time. But I promised her eight weeks. I don't know how to properly communicate to her how the only good thing in my life is death, or the possibility of it.

[Enail]

I don't think it's serving you very well to treat suggestions like that as if they're insults or ridiculous overreactions. For one thing, group therapy is a really common thing for all kinds of issues relating to mental health, not just the most serious ones, and a lot of mental health resources are offered through mental hospitals, because that's their field of specialty. It's fine if that's not something you're comfortable doing, but it's not actually a sign that she thinks you're any particular kind of crazy. She's suggesting it because it's one of the possible tools at your disposal.

And this hierarchy of 'crazy' you've got going on is not helpful, and to be honest, I don't think it really has much to do with the reality of mental illness and how it affects people and what it means. You spend a huge amount of your time consumed with pain and self-loathing, and contemplating suicide. You know that's not healthy, and that it's interfering a lot with your ability to function and to be happy. That doesn't make you some terrible kind of 'crazy'. But it's serious, and it's a good thing that your therapist is taking it seriously. That's what you're seeing her for.

I'm surprised you say that you don't have any distorted thinking; you've talked a lot here about the fact that you can't accept good things about yourself and will find ways to discount them, and acknowledged that you sometimes over-interpret situations based on your pain or fear. What kind of thing do you think she was meaning by distorted thinking if not that?

[reboot]

I don't think it's serving you very well to treat suggestions like that as if they're insults or ridiculous overreactions. For one thing, group therapy is a really common thing for all kinds of issues relating to mental health, not just the most serious ones, and a lot of mental health resources are offered through mental hospitals, because that's their field of specialty. It's fine if that's not something you're comfortable doing, but it's not actually a sign that she thinks you're any particular kind of crazy. She's suggesting it because it's one of the possible tools at your disposal.

Yep. I do group therapy at a mental hospital. Or, more accurately, at the mental health wing of a hospital. I am not sure if your image of mental hospitals was formed from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" or something, but the public access/outpatient therapy areas are pretty much like any other medical facility

[PintsizeBro]

I tried group therapy and didn't like it enough to do it again, but it's not like it's for a special kind of crazy. If anything it requires a higher level of function than one on one therapy, because you have to be able to participate in a group discussion in a productive way.

[Guest]

I tried group therapy and didn't like it enough to do it again, but it's not like it's for a special kind of crazy. If anything it requires a higher level of function than one on one therapy, because you have to be able to participate in a group discussion in a productive way.

What bothers me more than all of the horror stories I've heard (yes, it was One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest that started a fear of hospitals) is the idea of saying my deepest darkest secrets to a whole bunch of people.

I'm trying to minimize the amount of people who know. It's hard as shit admitting things to strangers. That's why it repulses me.

[reboot]

What bothers me more than all of the horror stories I've heard (yes, it was One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest that started a fear of hospitals) is the idea of saying my deepest darkest secrets to a whole bunch of people.

I'm trying to minimize the amount of people who know. It's hard as shit admitting things to strangers. That's why it repulses me.

That is the exact reason my therapist suggested I go and why I forced myself to do it. I always bottled up fears and insecurities behind a false front which led to be being in years of an abusive marriage without talking about it to anyone. No one had any idea from me what was going on and I would deny any problems if asked. This led to some kind of terrifying behaviors on my part (in retrospect, at the time they made sense).

However, Glides, I do not think you are quite ready for that. It seems like you are struggling to even open up to your therapist. A group might be overwhelming

[jcorozza]

Session Three:

Shrink suggested that I go to a mental hospital, for group therapy sessions. I immediately refuted the suggestion, I will never go to those places. I know how abusive and disgusting those places are. I told her how offended I was by her suggesting that. "I can't even believe that you'd think I'm that kind of crazy."

Say what now?  I'm...kind of offended that you think group therapy is only for people who are a certain "kind of crazy", whatever that means.  If I could go to a place for group therapy and not have to pay for it, I would.  I've done group counseling (it was a mandatory part of my grad program), and while I was skeptical at first, it ended up being one of my best experiences there.  You really need to get the One Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest idea of therapy/mental hospitals out of your head.  Going to a group that happens to be in a hospital is NOT the same as being an inpatient in a mental hospital.  

She took it in stride. I don't think the shrink likes me very much, but I haven't been particularly nice to her. Not mean, just cold like I normally treat people.

That's...kinda why she wants to do group therapy.  Group isn't usually about treating all of your issues, but about interacting with other people, empathy, and gaining self-awareness of how you interact with and present yourself to/with others.  That all sounds like stuff that would be good for you to do.

She tried talking about distorted thinking, but I refuted that too, explaining that my problem wasn't that my thoughts are distorted, it's that my thoughts are entirely true.

I feel like this comes up a lot, you refuting things your therapist (and people here) say.  And clinging whatever belief/"truth" is.  Where do you think this intense desire to be "right"/prove people wrong comes from?

She claims that I have very distorted thinking, the problem is that I can't disprove a single one of the thoughts.

Have you asked her about CBT/REBT?  That stuff is realllly useful for distorted thinking.  Having read a good amount of what you've posted here recently, I'd agree with her, so maybe you aren't digging deep enough to disprove your Jerkbrain.

Needless to say, therapy is a giant waste of time. But I promised her eight weeks. I don't know how to properly communicate to her how the only good thing in my life is death, or the possibility of it.

Here's the thing about therapy.  Much like a good friendship/relationship, you can only get out it what you put into it.  If you go in hoping to "prove your therapist wrong", then you're going to leave every time thinking that you're right, and that you're smarter than her, etc. even if that's not really the case.  You have to go in willing to be wrong, vulnerable, and to work really damn hard.  And three sessions?  That's nothing.  In order for it to actually help you, you NEED TO ADMIT THAT YOU ACTUALLY NEED THE HELP.  And that there are people out there who might know more about how to help you.  You're going to have to drop the stubborn, smarter-than-thou nonsense if you actually WANT to get something out of this.

[Guest]

That is the exact reason my therapist suggested I go and why I forced myself to do it. I always bottled up fears and insecurities behind a false front which led to be being in years of an abusive marriage without talking about it to anyone. No one had any idea from me what was going on and I would deny any problems if asked. This led to some kind of terrifying behaviors on my part (in retrospect, at the time they made sense).

However, Glides, I do not think you are quite ready for that. It seems like you are struggling to even open up to your therapist. A group might be overwhelming

Well that bottling up behind a false front sounds a lot like me.

The shrink isn't easy to open up to. She kinda just asks to hear things I don't feel like telling her. For example, how disgusting my self talk tends to be. My response was:

"I don't want to disgust you, I don't want you to judge me."

"I would never do that."

"Not consciously, you wouldn't. But subconsciously, you'd be sickened by me, you wouldn't want to talk to me anymore."

She nodded quietly at that. What's the point in lying? "We'll come back to that."

You've all seen exactly how bad it gets, it's not the kind of thing I'd want to say out loud.

If I was forced into group therapy, I would clam up and say nothing. Not even consciously, I physically would not be able to say a word.

Say what now?  I'm...kind of offended that you think group therapy is only for people who are a certain "kind of crazy", whatever that means.  If I could go to a place for group therapy and not have to pay for it, I would.  I've done group counseling (it was a mandatory part of my grad program), and while I was skeptical at first, it ended up being one of my best experiences there.  You really need to get the One Flew Out of the Cuckoo's Nest idea of therapy/mental hospitals out of your head.  Going to a group that happens to be in a hospital is NOT the same as being an inpatient in a mental hospital.

The therapy industry has not done a good job at dispelling that myth, that's all I'm saying. I've seen too many Reddit posts about how mental hospital workers force people to stay there so that they'll keep giving them money and raping them and stuff.

I would have to pay for group therapy, also. So there's that.  

That's...kinda why she wants to do group therapy.  Group isn't usually about treating all of your issues, but about interacting with other people, empathy, and gaining self-awareness of how you interact with and present yourself to/with others.  That all sounds like stuff that would be good for you to do.

I know exactly how I present myself to others. It's controlling those behaviors that is the difficult part. It's not like being mean is the impulse, the impulses are things like never maintaining eye contact, or uncontrollably moving my fingers around or paying attention to conversations.

This tends to make me pretty cold by default since it's difficult to pay attention to people. It's difficult to interact when you can't maintain eye contact without getting really uncomfortable. Even during sessions, I fidget and shift a lot, look at her for two seconds and then at the floor. It's very difficult to connect when the behaviors required to do so are almost impossible for you. A few people have realized this and that I don't mean it personally, but the rest think I'm just extremely cold and distant.

This is why it's so goddamn difficult talking to women, especially: not being able to maintain eye contact is seen as unattractive and creepy on top of everything else. I am designed physically and genetically to bore or repulse people. This is extremely difficult to control.

So it's not just classic shyness behaviors, it's shyness behaviors plus the tics. Maintaining eye contact actually takes extreme concentration, it feels like I'm not blinking even if I am. I dunno how to describe it.

It even shows in my interactions online, I'd be described by most people here as a cold and unfeeling prick. They'd be entirely right.

I feel like this comes up a lot, you refuting things your therapist (and people here) say.  And clinging whatever belief/"truth" is.  Where do you think this intense desire to be "right"/prove people wrong comes from?

Yeah, she caught me doing that. I revealed accidentally that I'm in grad school at 20, and she immediately told me how impressed she was by that.

"It would be impressive if I didn't have the lowest possible GPA required to attend. If you get a 2.9, you're immediately expelled. Also, I had no social life whatsoever in high school so I was in dual enrollment. That and AP classes meant I had finished most of my core classes by the time I graduated."

"You're discounting your achievements."

"I'd take a social life over a degree."

And once again I got that curious look that I've come to recognize as "Jesus Christ, this guy is off his rocker."

Here's the thing about therapy.  Much like a good friendship/relationship, you can only get out it what you put into it.  If you go in hoping to "prove your therapist wrong", then you're going to leave every time thinking that you're right, and that you're smarter than her, etc. even if that's not really the case.  You have to go in willing to be wrong, vulnerable, and to work really damn hard.  And three sessions?  That's nothing.  In order for it to actually help you, you NEED TO ADMIT THAT YOU ACTUALLY NEED THE HELP.  And that there are people out there who might know more about how to help you.  You're going to have to drop the stubborn, smarter-than-thou nonsense if you actually WANT to get something out of this.

Then I need to be proven wrong. You can't just say "you're a great person!" and expect me to just believe it. I absolutely need the help, I'm just not being helped at all right now.

Like I'm told to challenge my negative thoughts. How the fuck do I do that, lie to myself? How am I even supposed to conceivably think of a positive thing when there's nothing positive at all?

"Why do you say that you're ugly?"

"Because I'm ugly?"

I can't just say "I'm sexy." Because I'm not sexy. if I was sexy, I wouldn't be here.

[jcorozza]

"I don't want to disgust you, I don't want you to judge me."

"I would never do that."

"Not consciously, you wouldn't. But subconsciously, you'd be sickened by me, you wouldn't want to talk to me anymore."

It...seems a little bit like you actually DO want her to judge you. Because then it proves you "right" about therapy.

The therapy industry has not done a good job at dispelling that myth, that's all I'm saying. I've seen too many Reddit posts about how mental hospital workers force people to stay there so that they'll keep giving them money and raping them and stuff.

I would have to pay for group therapy, also. So there's that.   

For one, I'm not sure that I'd take everything I read on reddit as fact. I mean, it might happen, but I rather doubt there's an epidemic of mental health workers raping patients. Just like any other industry, you're going to get some shitty people, and some good people. For another, if you're not an inpatient, and you don't express desire to hurt yourself or someone else, they can't really force you to stay. If you do express that desire, and they force you to stay, well, that's kind of their job. The paying part is valid, especially if it would make other things more difficult. The attitude about it, though...not so much.

I know exactly how I present myself to others. It's controlling those behaviors that is the difficult part. It's not like being mean is the impulse, the impulses are things like never maintaining eye contact, or uncontrollably moving my fingers around or paying attention to conversations.

No, you know *your* end of how you present yourself. You have to actually listen to other people and respond to their feedback, which can be uncomfortable. But this is another example of you being a bit of a know-it-all. Well, if you already knew all the answers, then you wouldn't be in this situation. You might have to actually learn from other people.

Yeah, she caught me doing that. I revealed accidentally that I'm in grad school at 20, and she immediately told me how impressed she was by that.

"It would be impressive if I didn't have the lowest possible GPA required to attend. If you get a 2.9, you're immediately expelled. Also, I had no social life whatsoever in high school so I was in dual enrollment. That and AP classes meant I had finished most of my core classes by the time I graduated."

"You're discounting your achievements."

"I'd take a social life over a degree."

And once again I got that curious look that I've come to recognize as "Jesus Christ, this guy is off his rocker."

And again, it sounds a bit like that's the reaction you were hoping for. But your way of "refuting" her is by saying something subjective. That's not really how stuff like CBT works. You break it down a lot further.

Then I need to be proven wrong. You can't just say "you're a great person!" and expect me to just believe it. I absolutely need the help, I'm just not being helped at all right now.

Like I'm told to challenge my negative thoughts. How the fuck do I do that, lie to myself? How am I even supposed to conceivably think of a positive thing when there's nothing positive at all?

"Why do you say that you're ugly?"

"Because I'm ugly?"

I can't just say "I'm sexy." Because I'm not sexy. if I was sexy, I wouldn't be here.

See, yeah, that attitude is going to make it impossible to get a lot out of therapy. You have to actually put in effort to help yourself. Being ugly is not an objective quality. If you were saying that you were 5'7", then yeah, you'd have ways to prove that to be absolutely true, but "haven't had sex" =/= proof that someone is ugly. There are tons of other reasons why someone might not have had sex, and there are plenty of ugly folks out there having sex. Until you realize that you are going to be wrong about some things, don't go in challenging your therapist to "prove you wrong", then yeah, you're not going to get much out of it. Your therapist is not an adversary, and you're acting rather like she is. It's possible she's not the right therapist for you (maybe a man would be a better fit?), but if you have this "I'm smarter than everyone and know that this won't work and I will believe that until I am proven wrong" attitude? It doesn't really matter who your therapist is.

[Guest]

See, yeah, that attitude is going to make it impossible to get a lot out of therapy.  You have to actually put in effort to help yourself.  Being ugly is not an objective quality.  If you were saying that you were 5'7", then yeah, you'd have ways to prove that to be absolutely true, but "haven't had sex" =/= proof that someone is ugly. There are tons of other reasons why someone might not have had sex, and there are plenty of ugly folks out there having sex.  Until you realize that you are going to be wrong about some things, don't go in challenging your therapist to "prove you wrong", then yeah, you're not going to get much out of it.  Your therapist is not an adversary, and you're acting rather like she is.  It's possible she's not the right therapist for you (maybe a man would be a better fit?), but if you have this "I'm smarter than everyone and know that this won't work and I will believe that until I am proven wrong" attitude? It doesn't really matter who your therapist is.

I'm wrong about some things.

I don't know how to make therapy work, I don't know how to put in effort, that's the problem. It's not like I've been trying for years to fix the goddamn mind.

The therapist talks about my problems for money, she's sure as hell not going to be my friend. To expect me to open up so fast is a little stupid, honestly.

I tend to think of them as "emotional whores" in my head. Hell, I'm only going because I'm at the end of my rope and I have no other options after this. Either she cures me or I bust. Sure, it's about me learning how to help myself, but so far she hasn't offered me any of the tools to help myself aside from "every negative thought you have is wrong and only the happy thoughts are true," which even you have to admit is bullshit.

I've long ago accepted that I'm a bad person and that I don't deserve to be loved because of it, but at the very least I'd like to have one day in which I wasn't constantly insulting myself, self-harming or planning my own death. I'm not even going about the whole virginity thing, I've accepted that I'll never lose it, nor will I ever have meaningful connections to other people. Those are goals far too unrealistic for someone like me. But no depression? No suicidal thoughts? No self-harm? I need that much. I can live a life of misery and loneliness, just without that.

[Enail]

I feel like you're kind of missing the point of therapy here.  The therapist is not your friend. The therapist is not supposed to be your friend. The idea is not that you trust her because you're paying her to like you, but that you trust her because you're paying her to be non-judgemental and to keep your discussions with her confidential, and it is her job to do those things properly. And she is used to horrifyingly negative self-talk, she is in this profession because that doesn't disgust or upset her, and she has probably heard it enough that what you say will not be anything new to her. This is her job.

And the reason you're paying her is because you know that you are not happy with the way your thoughts and feelings are affecting you, because you feel like there's something going on there that you need to change or learn to handle, right? Because you have problems with intense self-loathing, negative thoughts, anxiety and suicidal ideation, and your brain is constantly manufacturing those things independent of what's going on in your life. And she is an expert on how people deal with thoughts and feelings, and how to make changes on that subject.

So, ask yourself why you are trying to argue, with the expert that you are paying to help you with problems with your thoughts and feelings, that the problems that you are paying her to help you resolve, which you know perfectly well that you are experiencing, aren't actually problems. You know perfectly well that your beliefs about yourself and other people are coloured by your self-esteem and vary with your mood, that you find ways to discount actual good things about yourself - you've said so plenty of times here. So why are you wasting your time by insisting that she prove to you that that's the case? You know it is, that's why you're seeing her!

If you want to work on this stuff effectively, recognize that you are on the same team and that the things she is telling you are the same things you are looking to solve. Instead of arguing with her that she's wrong, ask her what you can do to work on changing those things. And try the things she tells you to try, practice the things she tells you to practice, as regularly and as much as you can, every single day, even if they sound dumb and pointless.

This is not an exorcism, where she casts out your jerkbrain through sheer brilliance and faith. That's not what therapists do. If you try to talk to her as honestly as possible, she will try to point out distorted thinking, and by seeing how she does it, you're learning how to recognize it and defuse it better in the moment. She's not outwitting you, she's teaching you how to outwit your jerkbrain over time or tell it to shut up. But your conscious brain needs to try to trust her and work with her to learn that. You're probably going to get little things to try, exercises or ways to practice thinking, and they will probably seem dumb or sappy or pointless. But they are like doing physiotherapy for a knee injury; it might be small, repetitive motions, but it's building up the muscles needed and retraining how it moves. Practice matters.

She is not going to cure you. She's going to teach you how to cure yourself, slowly, through time and practice. Work with her, not against her.

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