Thin Privilege, Body Shaming, and Bad Feminism

[reboundstudent]

So..... I'm not sure if I buy "thin privilege" as a thing any more.

Just to be clear, I do buy beauty privilege, that if you fit the beauty standards of the culture, you have some amount of leverage and protection. However, equating beauty with a body shape is, I think, inherently slippery, as what body shape is considered "the best" is frequently cycling in and out of fashion.

I'm not sure that that "thin" automatically equals privileged any more. Right off the bat, descriptions too can be slippery; when we say 'thin', do we mean 'thin' as in rather lean and boy-ish (more up-and-down, flatter chest, smaller butt) or do we mean 'thin' as in "curvy but with a small waist"? And what I've been noticing in the popular culture seems actually kind of like the opposite; that if you're thin, your body type is deserving of scorn, mockery, and sneering. You get told you need to eat a sandwich; you get told that no guy wants you because no one wants to "f*ck a broom." You have songs like All About That Bass tell you that not only if your body type not desirable ("I've got the boom-boom that all the guys chase"), but that you should just plain fuck off. "Anaconda" is even more up-front ("F*ck them skinny bitches, f*ck them skinny bitches, f*ck you if you skinny bitch.")

The reason I'm thinking about it this morning is in wake of the whole Nicki Minaj-TSwift tweet spat. That's a separate topic all together, but what I've noticed, is that almost every single piece against Swift references her body in some way; how we shouldn't trust her because she says she's awkward and struggles with body images, but she's thin! Or how she must automatically be a "mean girl" because look, she's thin!

It makes me deeply uncomfortable, even though I myself don't subscribe to that body type. What's even more uncomfortable is that I see this kind of body shaming in feminist circles. Spaces where any kind of "full body" shaming would be shut down, thin-body-shaming is embraced.

Do you guys observe that too? What do you think of 'thin' privilege? Is there a case to be made that body shaming a thin person isn't as bad as body shaming a bigger person?

[Caffeinated]

Interesting questions. I think... Well, I think in our culture all women's bodies are constantly scrutinized and policed. There is no body type that won't be criticized or told she's doing it wrong somehow. It's part of why it can suck to be a woman, you're always trapped in a no-win situation.

But on the other hand, I do think that very fat women (and not just women after a certain level of fatness) get more scorn heaped on them than women who fall somewhere in the thin to average to overweight parts of the spectrum. It's like, all women get some mean things said about them and their body type, but very fat women get much much more of it, they're treated as though the existence of their body is either a joke or an insult.

So, thin privilege... more about falling somewhere in the thin-to-average-to-overweight area than just thin, and more a thing as opposed to the extreme reactions to very fat people. I do think it's a thing, but that like many things, there are a lot of people who misuse the term.

[Wondering]

I think that thinner women have more societal advantages than women who are less thin. As a whole. But I do see insulting of thin women by other women a lot. I don't know that I see that insulting going on so much in broader societal trends, though.

I think, at its root, it is still about women having less confidence in their own bodies. So if you're not thin, which society at large tells you that you should be, you get defensive and take that out on women who you do perceive to meet the societal requirements (whether those women feel that way or not).

So yes, I do see this done in places where fat-shaming wouldn't be allowed, and it's not okay. But I see why it happens, and I'm not sure it's even necessarily consciously done a lot of the time. It's really really hard to be aware of all the negative societal messages we've internalized and how we behave because of that. So while I think this is something that should be called out, I tend to have some empathy for and forgiveness of the women who do it.

[caliseivy]

I think thin privilege exists in different ways. I agree with Caffeinated about there being criticism of all body types, but in my experience the society leans more toward thinness still. They've now included having a nice ass (not too large though) and nice breasts (which size/shape are nice fluctuates a bit) but there's still this idea of appearing thin in certain places, such as having a tiny waist and that damn thigh gap.
Honestly, I have only heard of those two songs, "All About That Bass" and "Anaconda" being discussed when it comes to pop culture addressing larger shapes, so I don't see that as pop culture moving towards larger shapes. Actually, I don't like either of those songs because they dis thin women in the attempt to boost larger women, which is its own issue.

In my experience, fat shaming has been worse than thin shaming. Like fat women are usually the butt of jokes in movies, to name one example. BUT they're both pretty terrible, and in my opinion neither should be acceptable.

I've never been in a feminist circle where they shame thin women for their bodies, but maybe I'm not in feminist circles enough, I don't know.

[eselle28]

I do think that all sorts of women's bodies are shamed. Fat, thin, athletic, average. In some ways I think it's an extension of societal misogyny, which is internalized by many individual women. The woman you're having an argument with isn't just a jerk. She's a bitch, and a fat bitch or a skinny bitch at that. And I think you're right that not all thin bodies are treated equally. There are a certain range that are idealized, and there are others that are considered far more mockable, often by women who who have thin-but-curvy or average-sized body types.

That being said, I don't think it's all equal. There are more clothes available for someone like Swift to buy than there are for a woman who wears a size 26. She has more opportunities to find employment, both inside the entertainment industry or if she wanted to find a more ordinary sort of job. The assumptions about her (that she's mean, that she has no problems) are hurtful, but not necessarily ones that can be wielded in the way that assumptions about fat women (lazy, unhealthy) can be.

[reboundstudent]

Good points to all. I think I'm maybe picking it up on a bit more as I've been running into more articles from friends who either suffered from body dysmorphia and were mocked when they were tried to discuss it in feminist circles ("You should try being actually fat!", to a woman who literally couldn't leave the house for years because she was so ashamed of her appearance, even if the flaw was minor to other people) and women who suffered medical conditions in which they became unusually skinny, and got tons of backlash for it (suggestions that they have eating disorders, accusations that they can't be actual feminists because they're thin, and so on.)

@Caliseivy, one of the feminist circles where I encounter it is Jezebel.

@Wondering I absolutely see where it comes from. The "Real women have curves" meme comes to mind, which was clearly a reaction to women who felt their bodies were not attractive trying to make a social statement, but in the process, also kind of putting down other bodies. I have empathy to a certain extent, but I don't frequently see it being called out or discussed in the circles where it happens, so it keeps happening, and I in turn have less and less empathy.

[eselle28]

Oh, Jezebel's just terrible about that shit. I enjoy reading the site, but that's one of many areas where it's very hypocritical.

That "real women have curves" nonsense is sort of the shaming I was thinking about. I'm kind of with Jenny Trout on that one. It's not just anti-thin women. It's also anti-fat women, because it tends to be this segment of women in the middle who aren't trying to just say their bodies are bodies and should be respected as such, but that their bodies are superior to everyone else's. It's also got that nasty corporate slime all over it.

[reboundstudent]

Oh, Jezebel's just terrible about that shit. I enjoy reading the site, but that's one of many areas where it's very hypocritical.

That "real women have curves" nonsense is sort of the shaming I was thinking about. I'm kind of with Jenny Trout on that one. It's not just anti-thin women. It's also anti-fat women, because it tends to be this segment of women in the middle who aren't trying to just say their bodies are bodies and should be respected as such, but that their bodies are superior to everyone else's. It's also got that nasty corporate slime all over it.

Jenny Trout is one of my favorite people on the Internets these days. I don't always agree with everything she says, but she has her head on so straight. I want to make her a Tardis carpet bag to thank her for her awesomeness (and recaps.)

For anyone who hasn't come across Jenny Trout's Jealous Haters Book Club, what are you doing still reading this? Go, GO NOW!

[jcorozza]

I think it's also important to keep in mind that privilege isn't just about who's being insulted or shamed. It's about things like...who is more likely to get hired for a job all things being equal otherwise? Or having to worry that you might not fit in the airplane seat (or that if you do, but barely, your neighbor will give you dirty looks). Or having to worry about doing things like zip lining. Will there be a weight limit? How hard will it be to find clothing I like in my size?

[PintsizeBro]

Being a dude, I don't have the same perspective that a woman would have, but because I have opinions on everything here's mine: "fat" and "thin" are both relative. People who are thinner than me parse me as fat. People who are fatter than me parse me as thin. I had a hilarious (and by hilarious, I mean shitty) experience with a friend who told me that "as a person who [had] never lived without thin privilege, [I had] no business having an opinion on fatness" during a time when I'd gained so much weight from binge eating that none of my clothes fit.

Clothing-wise, I don't usually have a problem finding shirts that fit as I prefer short sleeves so I can just buy a Large, but I do have a problem finding pants. For some reason, pants manufacturers seem to assume that short guys never get fat. Luckily, I live in a warm climate and have a job with no in-office dress code (professional attire is required if we're meeting with clients in person), so I can wear shorts most of the time.

Health-wise, I'm not perfectly healthy. I'm completely willing to accept the idea that it's possible to be perfectly healthy when fat for some people, but I'm not one of them. When I eat right and exercise, I lose weight. My weight aggravates some of my health issues, and has caused new ones. That tells me this is not the right weight for my body. But I feel like fitness circles shame me for not focusing on my body before everything else in my life, and so-called "body positive" circles shame me for wanting to lose weight.

[caliseivy]

Oh, Jezebel's just terrible about that shit. I enjoy reading the site, but that's one of many areas where it's very hypocritical.

That "real women have curves" nonsense is sort of the shaming I was thinking about. I'm kind of with Jenny Trout on that one. It's not just anti-thin women. It's also anti-fat women, because it tends to be this segment of women in the middle who aren't trying to just say their bodies are bodies and should be respected as such, but that their bodies are superior to everyone else's. It's also got that nasty corporate slime all over it.

I've never liked the real women have curves either. There was a brief moment when I went "finally! acceptance!" and then remembered how I don't count. That it's only that small subset of women being recognized is also why I tend to get upset when people talk about plus size models and how much they're making waves. When I think about that, that's actually a subset of women who have a bit of privilege too, mostly over women who are also plus sized but not shaped that way.
Yeah, I very rarely read anything on Jezebel, but that's mostly because I don't have a lot of reason to hang out on there.

[KMR]

I agree with everyone here that women of pretty much all body types get shamed in one way or another, but I do think that thin privilege is still a thing, because I feel like I benefit from it myself. When I hear or read about the kind of comments that fat women have to deal with, I'm very aware that these are not things that I can expect to experience if I remain as thin as I am. For instance, if I go out to eat somewhere and order a high-calorie meal or lots of sweets, no one ever has or likely ever will make a negative, health-trolling comment about it. In fact, I'm much more likely to get the opposite: a comment like, "You're so lucky you can afford to eat all this stuff!" I've also had women tell me they're jealous of my body type or numerical weight (even though my numerical weight is so low that it would be an unhealthy value for someone who isn't as petite as I am, so it isn't exactly something to aspire to).

I think part of it is that we tend to set up a dichotomy for weight and body type. If you're not thin (often defined as ranging from underweight to the lower half of the "normal" BMI range), you're automatically considered fat. Women whom I would consider to have average builds are called fat or consider themselves to be fat. I've seen women who are barely larger than I am express concerns about their weight and desire to lose a few pounds.

Comments that disparage thin women, like the ones mentioned above, do strike a chord with me, but I don't hear them often enough to be that negatively affected by them, whereas fat shaming is pretty ubiquitous. In fact, the takeaway I get from comments like "real women have curves" isn't a worry that I'm too thin, but that my breasts are too small, which is a whole other kind of body image issue. The only other way my thinness negatively affects me is that I have a hard time finding clothes that fit,* but that's compounded by the fact that I'm also short and have a small build, so I partly perceive that as more of an individual issue.


*While many companies advertise their clothing as if they are explicitly designed to fit someone as thin as me, they don't actually make or stock sizes small enough to fit me, as if they actually implicitly acknowledge that my body type is a minority.

[reboot]

Late to the party, but here goes:

Privilege tends to be given to those who benefit from institutional and structural set ups that give them an advantage over others. With this criteria in mind, there is definitely "thin privilege". Everything from bathroom stalls, seat belts, furniture, medical equipment (there are load limits on MRI and CT scans, not everywhere stocks large BP cuffs), etc is designed for a certain weight or smaller and if you are bigger you can be SOL which sucks if you need an MRI and your hospital does not have a heavy duty machine. Then there is also employment and housing discrimination (fatter you are, the less likely people are to rent to you).

Women who are not fat get their bodies critiqued because society sucks that way. No woman escapes unscathed.

Thin women getting mocked pisses me off, but it is a bit of punching up. Not a kind or empathetic thing to do, but understandable.

[Wondering]

Eh, I'm really uncomfortable with calling it punching up.

I think that kind of idea contributes to all sorts of problems, like eating disorders. Are anorexic girls and women privileged? I mean, they sure are thin!

When you say someone's punching up, that implies that the one being punched doesn't really have a legitimate reason to complain, and I think that's a bad concept to apply to women who are thin and thinness overall.

[reboot]

Eh, I'm really uncomfortable with calling it punching up.

I think that kind of idea contributes to all sorts of problems, like eating disorders. Are anorexic girls and women privileged? I mean, they sure are thin!

When you say someone's punching up, that implies that the one being punched doesn't really have a legitimate reason to complain, and I think that's a bad concept to apply to women who are thin and thinness overall.

Fair enough. I was mostly thinking of it in line with people without privilege calling out others on their privilege. However, I totally ignored the thin body shaming and accusations of having an eating disorder aspect when it is your natural body, which was totally sloppy of me. My bad!

[Perlandra]

I can mostly wear the same clothes all the way from 110-165 pounds. There's a few exceptions, but my hips don't vary much. I've been told I'm too fat, too skinny, and just fine all in the same day (by different people, of course). Back in December, I went into the doctor's office on two crutches, wearing an ankle brace, and she said I was overweight and needed to lose about 30 pounds. I was all "umm, how am I supposed to exercise when I can't move!" Frankly, I still wasn't chubby by most people's standards. I've had men randomly tell me that they wouldn't date me unless I weighed under 100 pounds (I'd be in the hospital with an IV in my arm and feeding tube down my nose) or unless I weighed over 175 pounds (I like being active, and can't realistically see myself getting that heavy). I generally get more policing about my body from other women than from men, though.

It can be tough finding clothes that actually fit me, even though I'm usually a 6-8, depending on manufacturer. A lot of pants are super tight in the crotch, fit me like maternity clothes so I could stick a watermelon in the waistband in order to get them over my hips, are too tight in the bust or biceps, etc. I can't buy bras at standard department stores, they simply don't carry my size.

[celette482]

Oh yes, the "under 100 pounds crowd"

Part of what pisses me off about men tossing around numbers is that they (and everyone) are really shitty at estimating weight. So they figure they can say "Oh, you can't weigh a 100 pounds" to someone whose closer to 120 and think they are paying a compliment. We did an informal experiment when I was an intern (because we were talking about eyewitness identification) and we had variance of 6 inches and 25 pounds on everyone's guesses.

Thinness is not pathologized the way that fatness is (though in some cases it should be) and that is where thin privilege really shines. A lot of doctors out there cannot see past "FATOMGFATYOUREFATANDUNHEALTHY" which can be a huge problem for people, especially when it's already so hard to advocate for yourself in a hospital setting.

Not that the (well actually I'm not thin, but we'll go with actively figured) thin among us can escape. I get weighed every time I go in to a doctor's office, even if it's for something that isn't weight dependent at all. And they keep track. And nurses comment "Oh you've lost two pounds" Cue angry lecture about how weight fluctuations of 5 pounds over the course of a month is hardly news for a menstruating woman and that talks about weight gain or loss can be triggering for people you wouldn't expect just looking at them, so unless you think that has diagnostic significance for my sinus infection?

But I'm confrontational and actually not triggered by that sort of thing.

[jcorozza]

Ugh, yes, doctors. I've gotten to the point where I absolutely hate going to my doctor, because there is often a comment about my weight. The worst was, "you're too young to be this fat" which...what? Unfortunately, because of my current insurance, I need to go to my doctor once every month or so for more referrals for allergy shots, but if I didn't? I would never go, even if I was sick/worried about my health in some way, and that is a HUGE problem.

Another time, the OBGYN gave me a lecture about my weight - right before attempting to shove metal objects into my lady parts. Now, pelvic exams are already painful and anxiety inducing for me, and the lecture made things a million times worse.

I'm not sure why the medical profession hasn't figured out yet that body shaming doesn't actually encourage people to lose weight.

[reboundstudent]

I absolutely agree doctors/health care is one of those areas where there is an abundance of "thin privilege." A few years ago I went through a very serious bout of depression, and dropped from 130 pounds to 112 in about the space of a month (to really screw with the "calories in, calories out" crowd, I point out that during that time I was eating nothing but cheeseburgers and slices of chocolate cake while sitting on my butt.) I had to go to several psychologists, because the first few didn't understand why dropping 15 pounds in a few weeks seemed to indicate something was wrong. As soon as I went on an anti-depressant, boom, weight went right back up to 130-135.

On the other hand, there was something kind of scary about the fact that I was legitimately sick, but because I was skinny(er), no one noticed or thought anything was wrong. I think heavier people for sure have it rougher in that department, but it is dis concerning how we define health so definitively by weight.

[celette482]

Good doctors ask if you've have an unexplained 10 pound fluctuation in the past few months, because sudden loss or gain can be a sign of something very wrong. But that's a far sight different than "If you weigh X amount you are healthy and if you weigh Y amount you are unhealthy"

[Perlandra]

Marty, I also have that issue with weight melting off me at 1/2-1 pound per day when I'm stressed out or the weather is hot, without any changes to diet or exercise. When I was in the 110-113 pound range though, the doctors and other people were concerned about me. I didn't look willowy or ethereal. People asked if I was anorexic, or had cancer, or just stared at me in shocked dismay and asked, "what happened to you?!?"

I'm doing elder care for someone with cancer, and they couldn't start chemo until she gained some weight first. We really celebrated when she gained 5 pounds, and the doctors were really happy with the difference it made for her. So, I think thinness can be pathologised too, but it usually has to be pretty extreme.

[Perlandra]

jcorroza, that's awful! My doctors aren't perfect about it, but are mostly in the "I think you look ok but I am required to tell you this" camp, and agree with me that working on my cardio fitness and such is more important than the exact number on the scale. I would have told the gynecologist that I needed to reschedule my Pap smear with someone else. I can't blame you for not wanting to make waves, though!

[reboundstudent]

Marty, I also have that issue with weight melting off me at 1/2-1 pound per day when I'm stressed out or the weather is hot, without any changes to diet or exercise.  When I was in the 110-113 pound range though, the doctors and other people were concerned about me.  I didn't look willowy or ethereal.  People asked if I was anorexic, or had cancer, or just stared at me in shocked dismay and asked, "what happened to you?!?"  

I'm doing elder care for someone with cancer, and they couldn't start chemo until she gained some weight first.  We really celebrated when she gained 5 pounds, and the doctors were really happy with the difference it made for her.  So, I think thinness can be pathologised too, but it usually has to be pretty extreme.

It's probably relative. I'm very short (5'1" at the most), and so I'm supposed to be much, much thinner than I actually am. My workplace ties health deductibles to 5 Health categories: blood pressure, smoking, BMI, gluocose levels and one I forget. I consistently miss getting 5/5 because of my weight; I'd need to be in the 105-110 range to qualify. So at 112, I looked like I was "supposed" to, weight-wise.

[jcorozza]

I started seeing a psychiatrist a few weeks after I went into a fairly deep depression, and during which l lost maybe 15 pounds, because I basically stopped eating. When I started feeling better, I was eating again, and gained it back...so of course she told me I had gained too much weight. Sigh. I really like my therapist, but I have yet to find a psychiatrist who isn't super tactless and/or condescending.

[Perlandra]

Wow, Jcorozza, you'd think that psychologists/psychiatrists/counselors/therapists would be especially tactful and sensitive! I don't see how she couldn't know that super fast weight loss like that is a sign of depression, especially since you had other indications.

Marty, the BMI standards don't suit a lot of people, especially if they have a heavier bone structure or are athletic at all. Even if you did look better at 112, that sudden of a loss should have been a concern, not something to praise.

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