Disappointment

[inbloomer]

So, the closest I’ve ever had to a girlfriend, which has occupied a lot of my time and energy for the last two years, has fallen apart. My main feeling is embarrassment, because it’s a pattern that’s recurred over and over and I’d absolutely promised myself I’d never let it repeat again, yet it has. This is what happens:

1. Through daily activities, I meet a woman who is going through a rough period in her personal life. I can’t possibly know that at the time, it only comes out much later. But because she’s so pleased to find a positive, supportive connection to cling to, she over-eggs the compatibility. She’s all “Wow, me too! That’s fascinating! Tell me everything about that! Send me everything on that – I’ll read it all, I’ll watch it all! Let’s meet up next week and talk it all over!” Because I so want to find a genuine intellectual partner, I take that at face value rather than with a pinch of salt.

2. For an extended period, we become an increasingly big part of each other’s lives. I start to notice she isn’t quite the person I thought, but by this point I’m bought in so am ready to compromise. There will be contextual reasons why taking it slow seems more right and safer than effectively making an ultimatum that either it becomes sexual or I’m off. Yet I do everything I can to nudge up the flirting dial and make unambiguous that I want this in time to go beyond friendship. On everything she’ll match and say she agrees, but she won’t quite take the open goal. The biggest tell I’ve found – and I really shouldn’t have fallen for it again – is “the skip”. If you’ve gone out with someone for an afternoon or evening and you're about to say goodbye, if she skips a metre or two away – no matter how much she’s saying “I had an awesome time, I can’t wait to see you again!” – SHE IS NOT THAT INTO YOU AND NEVER WILL BE. She knows a kiss or hug is a reasonable possibility at this point and wants to avoid it.

3. Just when it reaches the stage where there are no more obstacles and it really is time to resolve this, she suddenly goes cold and distant. If I query what’s wrong, she’ll say something like “I never felt that way about you and realised you wanted more. Sorry for any confusion.”

I would not fall for these people if I could find genuine opportunities. I have been trying for 25 years, I have tried every way of meeting people, I have tried to make it work with women of all different types. I can’t do any more. Many people don’t believe that can happen, that anyone in this position must be making some obvious, schoolboy error. The people closest to me tell me that is absolutely not true, and that I’m just horrendously unlucky. But it’s getting extremely hard for me to feel any positivity about the whole subject.

[Datelessman]

This sounds very rough, and I am sorry for the feelings of heartache and turmoil you are feeling.

The only thing I disagree with is this line:

I would not fall for these people if I could find genuine opportunities.

This was a genuine opportunity. You met a single women via your daily life, in your social orbit. You two bonded over shared experiences, and grew closer over time. You even made your romantic feelings toward known at appropriate times. The only problem is that the romantic attraction wasn't mutual. That doesn't make it less of a "genuine opportunity." It may be a failure in terms of your romantic life, but that doesn't make it less genuine. You were receptive to the people in your orbit, capitalized on an opportunity, and made your feelings felt. That's about as genuine as it gets, even if it didn't end the way you'd hoped.

One thing which can be easy to forget, especially for us "late bloomers" (or "never bloomers") is that women can be awkward and make mistakes with how they respond to feelings or interact with people too. From what you stated, at best she was oblivious about your feelings despite your overtures until fairly recently, and then she ghosted you. At worst she was never into you and didn't properly communicate that sooner, and in a way still hasn't because she ghosted you. Remember, most times ghosting isn't done out of malice, but in not wanting to risk, or not figuring out how to, let a guy down in a "safe" way. Sure, she's known you for two years. That doesn't mean there isn't some risk for her with breaking your heart if she did so directly and honestly somewhere in the back of her mind even if it was unfounded. Women have been assaulted and murdered by guys who carried torches for years. It's so mundane it rarely makes the news. Sometimes people also ghost because they don't want to deal with disappointing someone, so they take a lazy way out of it.

I have to admit I never encountered "the skip" but I did used to call the plutonic, empty, back-patting, "face as far away from mine as possible" customary hug I got on at the conclusion of all three of the dates I ever had, "The Hug of Death." I also once coined the reaction I used to get from women during high school and college, "the Look of Ick."

It is easy to feel angry with yourself or the situation, and I am sure some romantic advice guru might suggest that when she began to "quite take the open goal," that was the sign she just wasn't into you and you should have either cut bait or adjusted your expectations accordingly (perhaps into "she is just a friend" territory). But you really were into her and such things aren't easy to do or catch on to in the moment. I absolutely get it. But sometimes I think the stories we tell ourselves can be helpful later on for context.

For a long time I used to tell myself "I never had a chance with women." It was only after (too many) years of reflection, due to both the DNL community and my blog, that I realized that that wasn't true: I did have chances with women. I just had few of them (three) and botched all of them. That is a different narrative, and had I adopted it sooner, it may have been easier to adjust myself in a setting where it would have been easier (i.e. when I was still in college). But at least now that I have it, I can try to focus on why I botched them and try to fix that.

"Falling" for this woman was not a mistake. She responded well in the beginning and I think you capitalized as best you could. If there is anything to learn from this, it is in realizing that desire isn't mutual from her signals a bit sooner and then adjusting course, as painful as that is.

In the meantime, yeah, this is rough. Take your time to mourn it.

[inbloomer]

It doesn't make much difference, but just to be accurate - she went into a slow fade rather than ghosting. The symptoms of a slow fade are very similar to those of someone whose mental health is deteriorating - there are good reasons why that could have been what was up, and if I'm over-sensitive on that issue now, so be it. So I checked in with her, and she said she was perfectly fine but backing off from me.

To be honest I'm feeling quite a lot of relief. This is someone who, if I went on an honest first date with now, would probably be a 7/10 - some good stuff but some red flags too. The compatibility was artificially inflated to a 10/10 because she was so keen at the beginning - I'm not for a second suggesting she did that out of malice or an intent to mislead, she was just (I now see) so pleased to have something to take her mind off other issues she had. But that creates a lot of momentum that's hard for either person to stop - like an oil tanker that can glide for 15 miles with its engines off, the connection seems to be progressing even though in reality it's gradually regressing to the mean.

(Also, I actually knew her for five years but we'd only hung out 1:1 for the last two, so I'm only counting the latter.)

[Datelessman]

I'm glad you checked in with her and feel more relieved, and got more clarity about her side of things.

[inbloomer]

I really don't think I did a lot wrong. In terms of her signals I detected some hesitancy but there was a lot positive as well. I came close to ending it last autumn and could have done, yet to give her the benefit of the doubt, as I did, was a valid and reasonable choice. I'm just noting that if someone really, really wants it they won't risk losing their window, as opposed to someone who seems really keen yet is always slightly putting off the final decision to the next occasion.

The real frustration is that it has always been so incredibly hard to find women I'm truly compatible with at a deep level. I've known very many "1 hour women", by which I mean I can go out with them for a drink and for the first hour it's great fun, but after that it's starting to feel a bit flat and like we've said all there is to say. (That is very common in socialising by the way, it's not specific to me or to dating.) That's hardly a basis for being in close proximity to this person for months or years. This woman was really the first who I could spend 3 hours with and it still feel fresh and like it could go on longer. That was the reason I was interested.

[Datelessman]

I really don't think I did a lot wrong. In terms of her signals I detected some hesitancy but there was a lot positive as well. I came close to ending it last autumn and could have done, yet to give her the benefit of the doubt, as I did, was a valid and reasonable choice. I'm just noting that if someone really, really wants it they won't risk losing their window, as opposed to someone who seems really keen yet is always slightly putting off the final decision to the next occasion.

Although I am not a STAR TREK fan, my mother is, and this line from Captain Jean Luc-Picard fits, which DNL reposts all the time, even if it won't ease any frustrations:

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life."

Sometimes you can do everything "right" and things don't work out. I don't think you did a lot wrong, either. I only mentioned the fact that she never "took the bait" that you were dangling before her as a sign to her feelings, but I totally get why you kept going. You enjoyed her company, and sometimes she gave you enough to convince you there was a chance. When I was younger I used to carry on unrequited crushes for a long time due to that.

Ultimately you're right: someone who is REALLY interested in someone romantically won't be quite so ambiguous when handed a chance to move forward. Women can be shy or awkward too, but eventually if they're genuinely interested they'll bite if give the chance. Heck, it can be staggering what people will endure or be willing to let slide when they are interested in someone!

The real frustration is that it has always been so incredibly hard to find women I'm truly compatible with at a deep level. I've known very many "1 hour women", by which I mean I can go out with them for a drink and for the first hour it's great fun, but after that it's starting to feel a bit flat and like we've said all there is to say. (That is very common in socialising by the way, it's not specific to me or to dating.) That's hardly a basis for being in close proximity to this person for months or years. This woman was really the first who I could spend 3 hours with and it still feel fresh and like it could go on longer. That was the reason I was interested.

That's always the challenge, isn't it? Finding someone compatible "at a deep level." Heck, I knew a guy (who was a ravenous sexist jerk and MAGA head following a bad breakup) who was "hot" enough that he was always landing first dates with women eager for one night stands or hookups, yet he wanted more serious connections too. So even many of the "Studly Goodnights" in the end want that too. Its universal. The difference is some of us have an easier time finding women than others, and finding someone deeply in synch with us requires a lot of trial and error.

Trust me, I've done speed dating events and when there's no chemistry there, even 3 minutes can seem like an eternity.

I get it. I haven't had much positive contact with women either, especially those I fancied, so when I got it, I would fall hard and tolerate a lot of things. I've met women I could talk to for hours so I totally get how alluring it is and not wanting to give it up.

Having a good friend is never a bad thing, though. Is it possible for you to still be friends even without any potential romance? There's no right answer; sometimes it can be painful to be reminded of what can never be and it is best to sever contact. But sometimes if you can allow your emotional side to mourn and heal, a friendship is possible. When I was younger such things were tough for me, but as I got older, I learned to appreciate friendship a great deal. A majority (though not all of) my friends who are women are women I crushed on at some point in my life (usually in high school or college) and I accepted the reality within myself and still wanted to interact. At times it feels like a relief, to have that cloud of angst removed from my interactions with them. But like I said, if you can't do that, that's no failing of you, its an honest revelation about yourself. If interacting with her only brings you pain, you have the right to not be a masochist.

[Hielario]

Serious question because there's something that feels familiar here : Did it ever seem like you were the only person in their life who actually listened to them? The only one who gave them support or help with their personal problems?

Because it sounds like there's something in your demeanor or how you treat people that attracts (in the same way an abandoned sandwich attracts hungry birds) women who are miserable and don't have anybody to rely on, at least in a psychological sense. And then they meet you and oh! it's so wonderful to have someone who cares!, so they cling desperately to that because they need it and it feels so good.  But there's not much beyond that for them, emotionally or sexually, so eventually the whole thing breaks apart or you get too weary (This is based on a couple of personal experiences).

However, there a couple of statements that I don't quite understand.

There will be contextual reasons why taking it slow seems more right and safer than effectively making an ultimatum that either it becomes sexual or I’m off. Yet I do everything I can to nudge up the flirting dial and make unambiguous that I want this in time to go beyond friendship. On everything she’ll match and say she agrees, but she won’t quite take the open goal.

I'm not sure I understand this. Could you exemplify some of those "contextual reasons"? How does she "match"? What is "the open goal"?

Just when it reaches the stage where there are no more obstacles and it really is time to resolve this

What are those obstacles? How do you know it is time to resolve it?

[inbloomer]

Hielario, I think you are right to an extent, though I don't act like a counsellor with them - I might advise on a personal problem if it comes up in conversation, the way you'd expect a boyfriend to, but that's not the core of the connection.

It's quite difficult to be explicit about the contextual reasons and obstacles without going further into the biographies of these people than I'm comfortable doing, but basically, I've found that with anyone you meet through daily activities there will be some sensitivities. For example, a previous woman I went through this pattern with had just broken up with a friend of mine. It felt like I needed to let some time pass before I could broach the possibility of us dating, yet she actually moved on and found someone else very quickly.

In terms of matching, with this woman I started the thread about, last autumn I told her that I wanted us to keep getting closer, at a pace she was comfortable with. She replied that she also wanted us to keep getting closer. So, in poker terms she matched but didn't raise - she didn't back off, as you'd expect someone who was only thinking of friendship to do, but nor did she say "what are we waiting for then - let's be boyfriend and girlfriend now!"

[inbloomer]

Thanks, Datelessman. Just on the last point, my feeling at least at the moment is no to any pursuit of a friendship. She is at a point of making a new start in life, in career terms, and it may be that ditching me is part of a general desire to make a clean break. That's entirely her right, but also means I get to move on and not feel any responsibility or worry about how it works out for her.

[Datelessman]

For example, a previous woman I went through this pattern with had just broken up with a friend of mine. It felt like I needed to let some time pass before I could broach the possibility of us dating, yet she actually moved on and found someone else very quickly.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. In fact if it happens once more, I can redeem a coupon for some free fries.

In terms of matching, with this woman I started the thread about, last autumn I told her that I wanted us to keep getting closer, at a pace she was comfortable with. She replied that she also wanted us to keep getting closer. So, in poker terms she matched but didn't raise - she didn't back off, as you'd expect someone who was only thinking of friendship to do, but nor did she say "what are we waiting for then - let's be boyfriend and girlfriend now!"

Yeah, I can see how that might be seen as a "mixed message."

Thanks, Datelessman. Just on the last point, my feeling at least at the moment is no to any pursuit of a friendship. She is at a point of making a new start in life, in career terms, and it may be that ditching me is part of a general desire to make a clean break. That's entirely her right, but also means I get to move on and not feel any responsibility or worry about how it works out for her.

You're welcome; glad I could help. If this works out for the best for both of you, even better.

[Enail]

last autumn I told her that I wanted us to keep getting closer, at a pace she was comfortable with. She replied that she also wanted us to keep getting closer. So, in poker terms she matched but didn't raise - she didn't back off, as you'd expect someone who was only thinking of friendship to do, but nor did she say "what are we waiting for then - let's be boyfriend and girlfriend now!"

So, if this is typical of the kind of signs that you're operating based  on, I think you might be really over-reading romance into things. "Getting closer" doesn't automatically mean romantically; it could just as easily mean close friends - in fact, I'd tend to read it as the latter without other much clearer romantic cues alongside it. Especially since it's more common for women to include emotional support, effusive enthusiasm and intensity in their friendships.

In general, that sounds like a really long time to remain in an ambiguous situation like this, and it seems like you have a lot of situations like that, where you become close to a woman in a way that is common to both romantic relationships and friendships, and it's not clearly romantic but also not clearly not romantic, but ultimately she declines to take it further and you're disappointed and feel a little used. It doesn't really seem like spending so long without collapsing the wave function is serving you or her terribly well. Like you say, if someone really wants to date you, they won't keep putting off a decision.  

So if you're interested in someone, why stay in that ambiguous state? Why not go ahead and ask them out - making it clear you mean romantically, none of this "get closer" vagueness - right away when you're in the 'starting to become friends' stage? If they're interested in you as more than a friend, they'll say yes, and if they're not you can decide how much you want to invest in a genuinely platonic friendship with them, and go use the romantic energy you'd otherwise keep putting into that relationship to look for someone who unambiguously wants to date you.

(And yeah, in the situation you mention where she'd recently broken up with a friend of yours, it might not be ideal to ask her out immediately, but honestly, I'm not sure that 'having an ambiguous situation that you're seeing as a precursor to a romantic relationship with your friend's recent ex' is less likely to cause hurt or conflicts than 'dating your friend's recent ex.')

[inbloomer]

So if you're interested in someone, why stay in that ambiguous state? Why not go ahead and ask them out - making it clear you mean romantically, none of this "get closer" vagueness - right away when you're in the 'starting to become friends' stage?

First of all, because every time I have done that over the years, the result has been disastrous. The person has been so taken aback that she doesn’t want to be around me after that, which has then soured mutual friendships and whatever activity we met through. I have said this over and over: I don’t believe marching up to an acquaintance and declaring “I would like to take you on a date this Friday” is common or widely accepted in the culture I am in. There’s actually quite a bit of recent research showing the majority of relationships do start as friendships for months or years first, with a period of feeling there’s potential for more but not being certain.

You do have an extremely high bar for what counts as a romantic signal. Do you really think that dropping all euphemism – saying to an acquaintance “so there’s no confusion, is your vagina on the table here? If you’re not prepared to say yes, sorry but past experience has taught me this isn’t going to be worth my time” … is the way to become popular, respected and successful? Because it sounds very risky to me.

Second, because meeting people through daily activities doesn’t work like it does in a romcom. It’s rare to get the ideal situation where you’re seeing each other every day yet there’s little to lose if things get awkward. Where I have had those, believe me I tried and it still didn’t work. Much more common is intermittency: you meet this person and have a great conversation, but then don’t see them again for weeks or months, for example because you’re both based in more than one location. After a while you form the links to keep in touch virtually, but that’s not the same. When you do meet up again, it takes time just to get the connection back to where it was, and there may be all sorts of reasons why that particular occasion then isn’t right.

Sometimes I have pushed through the pattern much more quickly, in a matter of weeks. I agree this one was a very slow burn but there were several reasons why. One was undoubtedly the pandemic: there were two summers where we were meeting up but physical contact was out of the question. Without that I would have got a more accurate read on her body language earlier.

Third, because my feelings for these people derive from her showing an interest in me. They aren’t that strong at the early stage you’re saying but become stronger as a friendship becomes more intense and all-consuming. Then when they reject, I move quickly to thinking maybe I dodged a bullet.

[Enail]

I don't always have that high a bar for what counts as a romantic signal, but in your case this seems like a pattern of overreading romance - if you weren't, they wouldn't dodge solidifying things into something clearly romantic to this degree.  And I think it's pretty unlikely a clearer declaration would sour the friendship as much as it has for you if they had seen things the same way you had and had been intending to send a message of romantic interest as strong as the one you believed they were sending.

Definitely don't ask if their vagina is on the table, but you could ask if they want to go on an actual date-date or say you like them as more than a friend, or if your flirting ever gets sexual, say "I'm up for it if you are, for real, do you wanna?"; the better you are at judging non-verbal cues, the bolder you can get here in terms of sexualness (as opposed to a chaster romantic intro like asking them on a date), but I'd play it on the safer side given the specific problems you'd been having.

Similarly, I think friendships that turn to relationships are common in many cultures and often a good way to do things (and is how I started dating my wife, so my bias is in favour), but you seem to have recurring problems where intense friendships that you're investing in with the idea they may turn romantic, never do, and then you're frustrated, and it seems like these intense friendships and the associated hope it might turn into something romantic might be getting in the way of you finding people who are more decisively interested.

Like, the way you're doing things doesn't sound like it's working for you, so I'm a little confused why you're so decided that it's the way you should keep doing things.

Another option to change the pattern, if you aren't up for eliminating this ambiguity earlier on, is just not getting into these very intense friendships with people you're romantically interested in. A lot of people who go all-in fast like this also tend to burn out suddenly, even with totally platonic relationships, so putting the brakes on sometimes makes more stable relationships possible with them. Be friendly and spend time together, sure, but don't aim for this intense and all-consuming degree of closeness.  Make sure you keep putting time into other friendships, other parts of your life, and leave them room to do the same. That might help you avoid that kind of intensity born out of need that makes you both dive in without really having a good sense of if you'd actually want to be so close once you know each other better, and could make it easier to separate what's romantic from what's not in the relationship and allow for developing a romantic connection in a less fraught and more straightforward way.

You don't need to see someone every day to start a relationship; see them a few times over the course of a month at an event, build up more connection every time when you do see them, eventually suggest hanging out together outside of the event - which still doesn't have to be every day. Let things build over time into something more regular and close rather than constant contact from the start. Things don't have to be just right for it to work romantically, there just has to be mutual interest and someone willing to make a move.

[inbloomer]

I have been trying every other method as well though. It’s gone in waves over the years: there will be a period where I’ve built up a portfolio of 3-5 connections, so I feel there’s a good chance one of them will turn into something. Then, one by one, they all fall apart.

Just before the pandemic this woman was one of four, who shared similarities so I thought I’d found my type. In terms of what happened with the other three, one is now dead, one I’m still in friendly touch with but she’s on the other side of the world now and I learned had a boyfriend all along, one stood me up so I gave up – though I ran into her on the street the other day and she was friendly so I’m back in touch but obviously with very low expectations.

My parents and best/oldest friend are people I understand. Of course we’re all imperfect and don’t agree on everything, but fundamentally I can understand and empathise with how they behave. I thought the rest of the world would be full of people like that, but it isn’t. It’s full of people who, outside contexts where they have to follow certain rules, behave in ways I find profoundly weird. For example, I fully get that people hate social awkwardness and confrontation. I don’t get why their tactic to avoid it is what I call “French farcing”: telling a bizarre pack of lies that’s obviously going to create a much bigger problem further down the line. And yet, over and over again I’ve seen seemingly nice and intelligent people do it (men as well, though probably women more often). Relationships depend on trust, and if you can’t trust what someone is saying on something fairly trivial, how can you trust them on the big things that come later like contraception and giving them free access to your space and possessions?

[Enail]

Hm, you didn't mention bizarre lies previously; what kind of thing do you mean?

[inbloomer]

So, this was yet another person but for example...

This was someone I'd been close friends with at university. I'd tried my best to make it more then, but the chemistry wasn't quite there on either side. We lost touch for a decade but then met again at a reunion, and she was all keen to keep meeting up, which we did a few times over a year or so.

We agreed to go to a dinner at our old university, which had to be booked in advance. We agreed the date and I arranged everything. Soon beforehand she wrote to cancel, saying she had a parents' evening (she'd become a teacher) that night. She wrote a whole emotive paragraph about how much she'd wanted to do it and how angry and sorry she was the two things clashed. I suggested a range of reschedule dates that were two months later and in a completely different part of the school term. She quoted the first date I'd mentioned and wrote back: "there's a parents' evening then too!"

Like, parents' evenings are once a year, they don't happen every single night...

[Presumably out of guilt, many months later she got back in touch and we did eventually do the dinner, but we mutually ghosted each other after that.]

[Enail]

That is a bit of a strange excuse, but calling it a "bizarre pack of lies" seems like an extreme interpretation of what sounds like someone conflicted (I'd assume between other things going on in her life and wanting to reconnect with an old friend, but I can think of another possibility or two) giving up on trying to make plans with a weak excuse. That's a pretty normal way to try and be polite.

In general, you talk a lot about situations with friends that you'd like to be more, that end with them using indirect and sometimes somewhat strange methods to disengage and with you frustrated and feeling led-on, or else "disastrously" with them being taken aback and distancing themselves as soon as you make clear you want a romantic relationship with them. It seems like a really strong pattern.

And to me those results seem extremely consistent with you and the other person not having ever been on the same page about whether this is a friendship or some kind of precursor to romantic relationship, especially given that you often use things that to me sound like general platonic enthusiasm as examples of romantic interest and that you prefer to convey your interest in indirect, ambiguous or non-verbal ways - which means they will likely give their responses in the same language.  To be honest, I have a hard time coming up with any other explanation that makes much sense for such a strong pattern.

IME, when there's a pattern of people seeming to act in similarly strange and inconsistent ways, that's usually a sign that you're missing some kind of social cues.

That said, it sounds like it's not an interpretation you're interested in looking into further, so I'll quit commenting on this now.

[inbloomer]

What it's consistent with is that women I'm compatible with don't exist. The answer is always going to be no, and in fact the more flawlessly I handle it, the worse they feel about saying no and so are actually more likely to disengage oddly and abruptly.

But they're not in the same position and can meet someone they're more compatible with more easily than I can, so no is the only result they're incentivised for.

Seriously, I've spent 25 years asking myself, as well as the people closest to me, if there's some obvious cue I'm missing. And as I say, I've tried being direct in my language. What happens is she goes round telling everyone I did this weird, unexpected thing, possibly without specifying the details, and that causes me problems.

[Hielario]

I can attest to having been given a handful of ridiculous excuses quite a few times myself, and not only when trying to date, but in other situations too. A ton of people will do that instead of putting the effort to convey the truth in a way that isn't hurtful, they just take the path of least resistance.

Also to the part where trying to be clear&direct is not only counterproductive but socially damaging. I've had that problem with a couple of otherwise reasonable advice writers, because they recommend stuff that would harm me socially or get me labeled as that weirdo. And that will hurt your chances even more.

And to me those results seem extremely consistent with you and the other person not having ever been on the same page about whether this is a friendship or some kind of precursor to romantic relationship, especially given that you often use things that to me sound like general platonic enthusiasm as examples of romantic interest and that you prefer to convey your interest in indirect, ambiguous or non-verbal ways - which means they will likely give their responses in the same language.  To be honest, I have a hard time coming up with any other explanation that makes much sense for such a strong pattern.

Really? I agree with both you and Inbloomer that he may be overreading into things, which is a normal thing to do when one has never experienced the behaviour of someone actually interested (even if I think both yours and Datelessman's idea of it is quite lofty), but I can come up with another intepretation very easily:

They're the type to go and say when asked: "I want to meet someone, go out once in a while, see what happens..." (I met a lot of women who would describe their aims in those terms). So they go with the idea of getting closer because it sounds nice, but they're not specifically invested in a romance or attracted. It's been great until now, so they're just going with the flow. And when inbloomer starts getting serious because he fell for them , nothing similar has happened inside them, so they have to back off. Mind you, I'm not assuming it's malicious. Or fully deliberate. Just that they treat the whole thing as a mere experiment instead of a process with a goal.

[Enail]

Also to the part where trying to be clear&direct is not only counterproductive but socially damaging. I've had that problem with a couple of otherwise reasonable advice writers, because they recommend stuff that would harm me socially or get me labeled as that weirdo. And that will hurt your chances even more.

I find usually when that kind of reaction happens, it's because there are subtle contextual cues that determine when and how it's socially appropriate to be clear and direct, and doing it wrong can feel rude or uncomfortable or even threatening to the other person. And those cues can be difficult to convey to others (especially in text), and it's easy for someone who's very good at picking up on these cues to not realize it's a skill that not everyone has, so yeah, it's a hard thing for advice to help with. Especially generalized advice, imo, because specific details play a big role.

Basically, I think our society has a lot of norms around refusals and rejections where it's often considered rude or even mean to turn someone down directly, so putting someone in a situation where it's difficult for them to avoid giving that blunt refusal (that may be considered extremely rude or mean) is very uncomfortable for them. And thus there's an unspoken rule that in a lot of cases people should take care around the context in which they make a direct ask, and that they should do a certain level of "due diligence" in figuring out if the person is likely to react positively (usually through contextual and non-verbal cues) before asking them something directly, to avoid putting them in the uncomfortable position of having to break a social norm by giving a direct refusal. When that doesn't happen or when someone has missed strong cues of indirect refusal, that's when I usually see strongly negative and surprised reactions.

But at the same time, it's also uncomfortable to have someone "asking" something in subtle or non-verbal ways but not noticing or ignoring their subtle or non-verbal answer. Our norms tend to require answering a question in the same "language" it's asked in, so it can be considered highly inappropriate to say outright 'sorry, I'm not interested in you" if someone's only indicating their interest with non-verbal or indirect cues. And while trying to figure out whether or not it's appropriate to ask directly, it's easy to land up actually communicating the ask pretty strongly through non-verbal cues without intending to, since people are often unaware of how much they're conveying in their own non-verbal cues. So there are some situations where trying to avoid making someone uncomfortable by putting them in the position of having to give a rude direct refusal can actually make them equally uncomfortable. Which, yes, is ridiculously complicated. But social connection in any society is a complicated thing.

So imo, there are a lot of things where general advice really can't be useful and things have to be tailored to the specific person, situation and/or culture, and even then, someone giving advice can't be there and observe it, so there's a lot of information they won't have and may not even be able to tell they don't have.

(If I absolutely had to give generalized advice on this topic, I think I'd probably say to check for cues of general (non-romantic) enthusiasm first up to the point where it'd be appropriate to see if they want to hang out one-on-one platonically, and then ask clearly about turning things romantic. I think that's the balance most likely to avoid making someone uncomfortable through directness while still minimizing the problems of ambiguity. But that won't be the right pick in all cases.)

Really? I agree with both you and Inbloomer that he may be overreading into things, which is a normal thing to do when one has never experienced the behaviour of someone actually interested (even if I think both yours and Datelessman's idea of it is quite lofty), but I can come up with another intepretation very easily:

They're the type to go and say when asked: "I want to meet someone, go out once in a while, see what happens..." (I met a lot of women who would describe their aims in those terms). So they go with the idea of getting closer because it sounds nice, but they're not specifically invested in a romance or attracted. It's been great until now, so they're just going with the flow. And when inbloomer starts getting serious because he fell for them , nothing similar has happened inside them, so they have to back off. Mind you, I'm not assuming it's malicious. Or fully deliberate. Just that they treat the whole thing as a mere experiment instead of a process with a goal.

True, that does happen. I'd find it a plausible explanation if it happened once or twice, but as what sounds like a pretty strong pattern I find it much less likely. And it doesn't explain why they're shocked and react in extremes; if they were approaching it with the idea maybe it would turn into a romance, they might find it awkward that he had strong feelings and they didn't, and I could see people ghosting because of that, but he's getting reactions of surprise and serious dismay, not just awkwardness.

I suppose it could be surprising to them because they'd decided by then they weren't interested and thought it was obvious and mutual, but if they're surprised he didn't realize that, it would suggest a lot of cues of lack of interest on their parts for quite some time leading up to it. From what Inbloomer's said about himself, it doesn't sound like he  struggles with noticing non-verbal or contextual cues in general, so I wouldn't expect that level of disinterest to be something he'd miss, whereas the difference between platonic and romantic interest can be much more subtle and easy to miss even for people who are generally strong at reading cues, so that seems more likely to me.

[inbloomer]

but he's getting reactions of surprise and serious dismay, not just awkwardness.

Just to be clear on that point, I'm not getting that now. I did get it in the past, when I followed other people's advice to be direct and upfront about what I was looking for. It was all a long time ago now, but it happened several times and was enough to make me very wary about following said advice in future.

From what Inbloomer's said about himself, it doesn't sound like he  struggles with noticing non-verbal or contextual cues in general, so I wouldn't expect that level of disinterest to be something he'd miss, whereas the difference between platonic and romantic interest can be much more subtle and easy to miss even for people who are generally strong at reading cues, so that seems more likely to me.

That's correct. For example, at work I've had real successes turning around (female) team members who were underperforming, leaving them not only more professional but also happier and nicer people than when I found them. It's really painful to me that the same doesn't happen with my social connections.

[inbloomer]

I find usually when that kind of reaction happens, it's because there are subtle contextual cues that determine when and how it's socially appropriate to be clear and direct, and doing it wrong can feel rude or uncomfortable or even threatening to the other person. And those cues can be difficult to convey to others (especially in text), and it's easy for someone who's very good at picking up on these cues to not realize it's a skill that not everyone has, so yeah, it's a hard thing for advice to help with. Especially generalized advice, imo, because specific details play a big role.

Basically, I think our society has a lot of norms around refusals and rejections where it's often considered rude or even mean to turn someone down directly, so putting someone in a situation where it's difficult for them to avoid giving that blunt refusal (that may be considered extremely rude or mean) is very uncomfortable for them. And thus there's an unspoken rule that in a lot of cases people should take care around the context in which they make a direct ask, and that they should do a certain level of "due diligence" in figuring out if the person is likely to react positively (usually through contextual and non-verbal cues) before asking them something directly, to avoid putting them in the uncomfortable position of having to break a social norm by giving a direct refusal. When that doesn't happen or when someone has missed strong cues of indirect refusal, that's when I usually see strongly negative and surprised reactions.

But at the same time, it's also uncomfortable to have someone "asking" something in subtle or non-verbal ways but not noticing or ignoring their subtle or non-verbal answer. Our norms tend to require answering a question in the same "language" it's asked in, so it can be considered highly inappropriate to say outright 'sorry, I'm not interested in you" if someone's only indicating their interest with non-verbal or indirect cues. And while trying to figure out whether or not it's appropriate to ask directly, it's easy to land up actually communicating the ask pretty strongly through non-verbal cues without intending to, since people are often unaware of how much they're conveying in their own non-verbal cues. So there are some situations where trying to avoid making someone uncomfortable by putting them in the position of having to give a rude direct refusal can actually make them equally uncomfortable. Which, yes, is ridiculously complicated. But social connection in any society is a complicated thing.

So imo, there are a lot of things where general advice really can't be useful and things have to be tailored to the specific person, situation and/or culture, and even then, someone giving advice can't be there and observe it, so there's a lot of information they won't have and may not even be able to tell they don't have.

(If I absolutely had to give generalized advice on this topic, I think I'd probably say to check for cues of general (non-romantic) enthusiasm first up to the point where it'd be appropriate to see if they want to hang out one-on-one platonically, and then ask clearly about turning things romantic. I think that's the balance most likely to avoid making someone uncomfortable through directness while still minimizing the problems of ambiguity. But that won't be the right pick in all cases.)

Basically, it takes a lot of time to get to know someone well, in many environments people look askance if you announce straight off that you're trying to find a partner, yet if you put a lot of time and energy into something that ends coldly and abruptly you feel it's all wasted. I've talked through with people close to me in the last few days, and while one can always argue the toss about how direct to be at what moment, I think my fundamental problem is not communication but that I have a quirky, unusual personality, without being so far off normal as to have a diagnosable condition, which means connections beyond platonic are very, very hard to form. One woman in the past literally said to me "You're really good-looking, intelligent, funny and kind - yet I still don't feel anything for you beyond friendship", which doesn't leave any obvious thing to work on.

Not just DNL but nearly all modern dating advice takes abundance mentality as its starting assumption - that everyone has got this big pool of people they're compatible with.  Even looking beyond me, I think that's wrong. I do directly know examples of ideal relationships where both utterly adore the other and continue to for the long term, but those are exceptional. For example, my two oldest friends are both married with two children, yet for one I've always had the impression their relationship is alright but not amazing, with the other we his friends all feel his partner is unpleasant and borderline abusive, and he now never allows us and her to interact. Maybe a bit more realism in general is needed.

[Enail]

I'm someone who doesn't meet a lot of people I'm compatible with, even for friendship, so I do get where you're coming from on that front. From what you're saying in this last post, two things stand out to me as things to consider:

1. Improving your filtering. Figure out where the people you are most compatible with spend time and what cues are good indicators of compatibility, and put more of your energy into finding those people and showing them your actual, specific self that rather than trying to cast a wide net and appeal to everyone. If you're a unique taste, a smaller pool but with more compatible people is more likely to lead to something.

2. You're being read as overly platonic; Could be having a quirky personality that's enough of a fit for friendship but not a close enough fit with most people to match romantically, but another possibility is that the way you present yourself and interact with people gives off the vibe that you're not a sexual or romantic being, that you would be a perfectly fine person to date on all the boxes but it's almost like somehow you're from a universe where romance isn't really a thing, like you're a character on early Doctor Who or some other show that doesn't focus on romantic relationships.  So people don't seem to ever think of you romantically. I'm not sure if that might be part of it for you or not, but I figure it's worth mentioning, at least.

So in that case, the task is to figure out how to present yourself as someone who may bea sexual/romantic being - which doesn't mean making explicit sexual overtures or talking about sex all the time, it's about a vibe and about the nuances of how you interact, even outside of romantic interactions. Sometimes people who are very reserved or very worried about being creepy are just so careful and closed-off about touch or flirtatious behaviour or even talking platonically about anything to do with sex, that it creates that non-sexual/romantic image. Sometimes just getting in touch with your sexy side for yourself can help you figure out how to bring it out that tiny bit for other people that would put you in the right universe.

Examples: For a friend, dressing up as a sexy character for Hallowe'en and playing someone overtly sexual for a bit did it, somehow that helped her grasp that vibe that she hadn't really been able to get otherwise, so that afterwards she was able to bring a tiny bit of that energy into her regular existence without needing to act like a femme fatale.  For me, a joking ultra-sleazy persona seemed to do this unintentionally (but please note I only did it with people that I wasn't at all expecting to be romantic prospects and it absolutely wasn't a way of hiding sexual come-ons in jokes. This has a high risk of being creepy if there's any hint of actual interest behind it, and I'm not recommending this specific approach to anyone, and I'm actively un-recommending it to anyone that's ever had issues with women seeming uncomfortable with their advances, just trying to give an example of what I mean.)

[Sorry, this next bit does touch on my thoughts that you might over-read romance, but I think the point is different and can be relevant without totally accepting my interpretation there]. Since you often mention as romantic interactions that to me sound platonic, it might be that your line between platonic and romantic is further towards platonic than most people's. Eg. if 1 is totally platonic and 10 totally romantic, what you consider the halfway point is what most people would consider a 3, and to cross their line of "this is a romantic interaction, not a platonic one," you'd have to go what might feel like a 6 or 7 to you, well into romantic territory.  So if you mostly operate in what they'd consider the 1-5 realm, that might give an overall impression that you're just not in this story as a love interest for anyone, so to speak, making it harder for them see you in a romantic light. If so, having a higher bar for what's romantic rather than platonic might help, so that when you're connecting with someone in a way that you hope will become romantic, the signals that you're sending to indicate that interest in will be more clearly across the line into 'interested in something beyond platonic' to them, at least enough to put you in their minds into the universe where people have sex and romance.

[inbloomer]

Thank you Enail, this is all useful. I do think a major part of the situation is not in my direct control, but in terms of what is, these are the most promising areas of focus.

On (1), I have got better at that but could do even more. When younger I probably did try too hard to appeal generically to everyone, masking my true personality, but I agree that’s a false economy and it’s better not to waste time trying to please people who are never going to be right.

On (2), I think there is something in this. I’ve mentioned before that I’m probably a bit on the asexual/aromantic spectrum, without being completely so. I can believe that when I think I’m making crystal-clear romantic signals, it’s still coming across as rather intellectual and subtle, so if not taken as outright platonic it’s at least read as ambiguous. (That’s NOT the same as deliberately misrepresenting your intentions, which I really don’t believe I’ve ever done.)

The “finding your sexy side” behaviour I absolutely get. To be honest, I literally have a kink for being on the other end of that, i.e. where a woman who is extremely nice but almost too wholesome and earnest just nudges the dial beyond what I expected from her. (Given current fashions, I’d say wearing a thong bikini at the beach is a good example of “a little bit edgy but still pretty mainstream”.)

I have always worried that my actual desires fall between two stools. The highly sexed would find them far too tame, yet I get the impression there’s a large segment of people at the other end, who are big on romance but deep down find sex threatening and so want to keep it restricted to a small, fixed box in their lives, never to be flexed or spoken of otherwise, and I don’t fit in there either.

I am willing to try finding the right vibe and nuances. I think it is quite a challenge though. Some things lots of people try and they never work. The classic one is teenage boys putting up posters of hot women on their noticeboards – you think at the time that it makes you look red-blooded and masculine, but it actually makes you look pathetic and masturbatory.

Some things do work for some people, but I think you are under more risk of getting weird or mocking reactions when people just didn’t expect it from you. I would be fine with putting slightly sexier photos on my social media, but obviously don’t want to shoot straight into trying way too hard territory.

On the dirty jokes angle, I’m a big fan of well-constructed double entendres but absolutely agree they have to be about things you personally aren’t getting off on. Some of my most cringeworthy past mistakes were around that – making what could have been a good joke but came across as a hidden come-on so fell on stony ground.

I think touch is a particularly difficult one for me because I’m just not a platonic touch person, and therefore any attempts to introduce it are high-risk. As I said at the start of this thread though, someone avoiding the possibility of touch is really the biggest tell that their interest is only platonic, so I worry that underdoing it also gives confusing impressions.

If that helps crystallise any next steps you can advise on, do let me know. Thanks!

[Enail]

Yeah, I think avoiding touch does make it more likely to be read as platonic, so that is a tricky one. I'm also not very touchy with friends by nature, but I got used to it over time, but I think platonic touch is more expected for women, so it was something I worked on because it was more comfortable socially, rather than anything to do with dating. The only options I can think of would be try to get a bit more comfortable with it, be more verbally flirtatious, or just be the sort of person that's very upfront and straightforward, which it sounds like you haven't found works well for you.

If you can, I think it might be good to find some situations where you can play around with different characters, to practice channeling different aspects of yourself and to try and see if any of them have a more flirtatious or sexual vibe that feels right to you and could therefore help you figure out how to bring that part of yourself out better. Hallowe'en's always useful for that, but it's only once a year, sadly.  Cosplay? Joining plays? Or even things like, if you have nerdy enough friends, do readings from scenes from books that you all like, where everyone plays a part. None of those are super-low investment (except the last one if you happen to have the right sort of friends).

I'm not sure how well it would work, but you could also just try internally "dressing up" as different characters when you go about your daily life, just trying to capture the vibe and way of moving and talking of that character while you're grabbing your groceries - I wouldn't do it with people you know or extended interactions, because then it could get into the weird territory of pretending to be someone else, but just trying to capture a character's vibe for normal brief dealings with strangers seems okay. Like a grown-up version kid wearing their Spiderman underoos to feel braver, almost.

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