Some discussion of kink

[inbloomer]

This is mainly in response to Datelessman, who was posted a bit more on his blog about his fetish than he’s previously revealed.

I think he’s done the right thing to come out with it, and my main reaction was that it’s really very mild. Even other past commentators on DNL had much more extreme, taboo fetishes that they kept going on about.

However, a question definitely has crossed my mind around whether mild fetishes – specifically these that are for self-contained, usually chaste scenes rather than add-ons to vanilla sex – are a common factor among those who find it particularly difficult to form romantic relationships. Maybe these people project an uncertainty and confusion about what they really want from prospective partners, which gets subconsciously picked up?

I have a handful of fetishes. They are not identical to Datelessman’s but very much in the same ballpark. The common thread is that the ‘victim’ experiences a degree of discomfort and indignity but no real harm, they accept it with reasonably good grace, while those in dominant or observing roles are polite and don’t overstep. However, I’ve largely given up pursuing these online, because so much of what’s available is too strong in ways that ruin it for me, e.g. any nudity immediately escalates to sexual humiliation. I know though, from comments I’ve seen from lurkers, that plenty of people do prefer the mild end.

I don’t think fetishes are the be-all and end-all of forming relationship, but they are a complicating factor, in terms of knowing how and when to open up and trust someone else. Also, I’ve known several people at the other end of the spectrum – they’ve had multiple partners and been in relationships most of their adult lives, yet it’s clear from comments they make that they are very, very vanilla, and anything at all off that they find totally bizarre and outside what they can understand.

[Datelessman]

For some disclosure, I've waited about 3 days to reply to this because I wasn't sure I was ready, and I am still not.

Spoiler:

My original game plan was, since I've been running a blog for 9 years and since the usual "lamentations" which originally caused me to make it were diminishing to the point that I no longer "needed" to post there for my emotional well being as often as in the past, that I would tackle this "elephant in the room" as it were. It took me years of dancing around the subject and then an additional few months of working up the nerve to just type that instalment mentioned as openly and honestly as I did. My fetish is, in all seriousness, something I am far, far, far more ashamed of and shy about than my lack of sexual experience. My first online aliases were not about talking about being a virgin, but rare ventures onto message boards regarding the fetish in the mid to late 90s (when I was already a teenager and the modern Internet was very new). Anyway, I figured I would see how things went on the blog, maybe find some strength to make one or two more blog posts about it there and then, if I felt mentally ready, bring some version of it here. The blog is my "safe space" since, while it theoretically has 75 subscribers and averages 75-475 views a month, in practice only 1-2 people comment on a regular basis and I am rarely challenged (especially since about 2016 or so).

Which isn't to say this forum isn't "safe" or that I don't feel supported here. I do, very much so. But it has more "regulars" than my blog, even now, and more folks are willing to reply to the text walls I type in ways beyond a simple "atta boy." At best I envisioned maybe posting about this here before the end of the year. Little did I know it'd be discussed here barely 24 hours after posting it. I link to my blog in my profile, but...I wasn't really aware of anyone from here reading it. It's not like I usually feel that I leave any great yearning for MORE of my text walls. So firstly, thanks, inbloomer for reading my blog and getting some insight from it. And secondly, while I am a bit uncomfortable with things being brought here way sooner than I'd planned, it was inevitable. Ultimately I made that blog post with the understanding somewhere that it could or would lead to something I did not expect, but which probably had to be done. It just seemed internally dishonest to feel as if my angst about being untouched was diminishing (believe it or not) without confronting this deeper bit.

Part of the shame is having a fetish which potentially ties into the absolute worst of humanity, and of fitting the stereotype of the average villain in an episode of LAW & ORDER: SVU or a thriller film starring Denzel Washington. Whether that makes me good or bad, and whether good people can enjoy risque things and still be good. Part of this is a lot of black-and-white thinking, but the other part is awareness of real patterns that play out, usually enforced by society. The public stereotype of "a 40 year old virgin" went from Andy from a movie to, increasingly, spree shooters with a pinch of the serial killers who attracted tons of attention in the 80s and 90s and still have documentaries told about them. I genuinely, passionately, seriously do not mean harm to any woman. I am reminded of a quote from Alfred E. Neuman: "Most people are like cement; all mixed up and permanently set."

To reply to the question at hand -- whether or not sexual fetishes play a role in those unable to form romantic relationships easily, or at all -- I do not know. I don't personally blame my fetish for my entire life of romantic futility; I think a low esteem, taking past negative reactions too seriously, and decades of entrenched negative self-talk (if my body is a GUNDAM, my Jerk-Brain is the pilot) contributed way more. But the fetish and the shame I felt/feel about it did me no favors. I don't know if anyone has ever done a study trying to overlap sexual fetishes with older virginity. I fear if one study did do so, that older virginity would be blamed on some "mental deviance" of some kind, which is already a stigma that floats around. But for some it could be.

It can overlap with inexperience by virtue of someone wondering when is the "right" time to tell someone, if ever. And that's very subjective. Ideally it isn't the kind of thing which is rolled out immediately, especially for fetishes which revolve around any kind of "domination" or restraint or so on. There are venues (like FetLife) for people who want to go into the dating pool LEADING with that kind of stuff, but that is a big leap. Usually intimacy isn't just physical, but emotional and intellectual, too. It is best to not share certain deep, core truths or "secrets" with someone unless there is a certain level of mutual trust and compatibility, and that usually takes time.

I understand the frustration of being limited in online options for a fetish since a majority of it can seem too "hardcore." That's true of a lot of "normal" porn too (or homosexual porn, especially involving lesbians). I imagine some folks just want something a tad more risque than an average romance novel and instead it's 1500 variants of "BBW T&A GETS DESTROYYEDD!!!111" somewhere. I can only offer a path which I did, so I speak from experience. When I went to Deviantart, I decided to CREATE some of that content I wished there was more of. My medium is writing, but if yours is drawing, go for it. Of if the venue needs to be different, so be it. But sometimes it is kind of like when DNL suggests starting one's own party or MeetUp if they can't find one which fits their niche. I'm not saying "become a porn producer," but writing, for instance, really only needs a keyboard and some spare time. And once I had some content to point to, it became easier to reach out to text roleplayers and have something to show for what I wanted beyond my own "intro." If someone wanted to see what kind of stuff I am into, I literally have over three dozen fics to read.

And the writing helped because it allowed me to start off with a venue where I have 100% control (as the author) of the scene, characters, story, dialogue, conclusion, etc. Now, I have a bit of an odd advantage since I have been doing message board RPing for over 20 years with a few years of tabletop RPG stuff atop that, just with more "vanilla" stuff. So the idea of roleplaying with someone over text and working off what I am given in that context is old hat. I can come up with dialogue and a plot and invent characters on the fly with little more than a simple premise or outline, and people think it's magic. It's just a parlour trick.

Another key is communication. No roleplay session (at least a proper one) begins without brainstorming things and going over mutual likes/expectations/hard no's and so on. In fact, folks who just storm in and roll with it without doing that are usually not desired (or display their inexperience). I would also suggest not compromising yourself too much for a roleplay session; it is better to try to find a more compatible partner than trying to work with someone who wants more "extreme" stuff, since ultimately what happens it is feels awkward at best for both. My first major text-style RP on Deviantart went like that, and I learned my lesson (after an amicable understanding).

I always felt like an odd duck, even in NY. I was too kinky for the norms but too normal for the freaks. Even if I genuinely have no intention of ever sharing it with a live person. It isn't wrong or unheard of to have fantasies one never intends to ever do in real life (or "meatspace" as the kids say). The biggest problem is society itself encourages "vanilla sex" and has for the longest time, especially overlapping with things such as "sex is only for marriage" or "sex is only to make babies" or "women cannot enjoy sex and men who do have to keep their mistresses divided," and all that garbage over the past 100+ years. The thing to remember is there have always been those who didn't fit in, always been those with different views of sex (or gender) than the norm. They just didn't have the Internet or even radio or telephones to communicate with each other. Nowadays some of those walls are crumbling, especially post-2011 or so, which I think is a net positive. Even if it does me little good in terms of romantic gratification.

These days there's the term "kinkshame," which is seen as a negative thing to do. That's been coined by Zoomers, folks still in their teens and 20s. That's generational. I'm 41; I grew up in the 1980s, VHS, tan tinted world. "Shame for kinks" had no slang because there was this universal, unspoken rule that certain things were taboo and not to be discussed -- especially since at the time, it was tough to do aside for being in person or maybe via newsletters or bathroom walls. By the time more acceptance started to emerge for some of this stuff, I was already 30 or so. And I don't mind being the last of the dinosaurs, truly. If I have to be the last generation to be stifled under the yoke of "men don't cry," "fetishes are bad," or "real men should be like THIS and if you are not you have failed," I would be glad. That stuff is toxic and needs to die. It is kind of a shame that I was born too late to benefit from much of it, but that's how life rolls sometimes. Rather than be bitter or act like a "gatekeeper," I want to be the one throwing those gates open and saying, "Let me be the last."

Yeah, I am rambling, but I am still sorting out being more public about this.

[Enail]

To be honest, I think you're overestimating how bad things are for our generation. I'm the same age as you, and even if the word kinkshaming wasn't around yet (unclear - earliest published use I can find in a quick search is Dan Savage in 2015, but he's older than me, so I feel like it must have been circulating for a fair while before that), the concept's certainly been around since I was in university at least. That's not to say that it was universal - which it isn't now, either - but it's been a thing for a long time, and there've been a decent chunk of kink-positive people around for decades.

I don't mean that to take away from your concerns about shaming or negative reactions, because those have been and are reasonable things to be concerned about and things that most kinky people encounter from time to time even in largely sex-positive circles, but I think you tend to view the world as more broadly hostile and conservative than it is and it makes you feel worse about things than you need to be.

Especially for such common, well-known and relatively accepted kinks like yours, those are things that one might reasonably expect most reasonably open-minded partners to be willing to give a go, even in not specifically kinky groups and even into the realm of Baby Boomers (it's almost a stereotype for older married couples to try some soft bondage or even pain to spice things up), let alone Xennials.  

I'm sorry you feel so much shame and guilt about it all; if it helps any, this feminist doesn't think there's anything wrong with it or anti-woman or creepy or irreconcileable with being kind and sensitive. It's something a lot of women are actively into, too.

Congratulations on having the courage to write about it!

[KMR]

I agree with Enail. I'm only a few years younger than you, and my perception has always been that the kink you describe is very mild and commonly accepted. I have fantasies about this kind of thing myself (from the submissive perspective), and while I don't go around discussing it with most people (in the same way that I don't discuss my sex life with most people in general), I have comfortably told some of my partners about it. I've never thought of it as something shameful or even all that out-of-the-ordinary, so I don't expect most reasonable people would judge me negatively for it.

I really don't think of kinks and fetishes as things that necessarily reveal some kind of moral truths or tie directly into what makes us good or bad people. They're ultimately fantasies; even acting them out with other people is just a roleplay of said fantasy (so long as all parties are mindful and respectful of consent and boundaries). We separate reality from fiction all the time without it being a moral conundrum. In the same way that we can, for instance, enjoy a violent action sequence in a movie without ever having the desire to see or inflict any form of harm on someone in real life.

Based on what you've written, I presume that you aren't negatively judging all the other people that you know and have interacted with who have this particular fetish (including even more extreme/hardcore variants than what you're personally into). So why should you judge yourself any more harshly?

[inbloomer]

Apologies for any discomfort caused by starting the topic here – I definitely hope doing so will be a net positive, and it’s not like this forum has been a bustling crowd in recent times.

At least the way he’s described it, I don’t think Datelessman’s fetish comes across as remotely serial killer-ish. Where there might be more risk is in people seeing it as silly and immature (I don’t). It feels like there’s a societal convention that real men’s fantasies are supposed to be of the “EXTREME SCREAMING ANAL!!!” variety, whereas mild, chaste fantasies are things you are supposed to have grown out of. That’s why this nuance of fetish is a bit different from “spicing things up in the bedroom” kink.

There’s also the fact that these fetishes involve surfacing feelings of shame and vulnerability, which people may not get the point of or not wish to delve into.

[Enail]

The idea that macho men are supposed to have EXTREME SCREAMING ANAL fantasies, yeah, but the idea that milder fantasies are less mature is not something I've ever heard of. I could maybe imagine it being a thing with some "kinkier than thou" types, which do exist, and that might make using kink-oriented apps more difficult. But among more mainstream types or even kinky people who aren't deeply into the kink community or lifestyle I'm a bit skeptical that'd be much of an issue.

[inbloomer]

I was unaware of the difference between kink and fetish but having listened to a programme on it: apparently a kink is something non-standard that you enjoy or are intrigued by, while a fetish is a stronger kink, in that it’s a fundamental part of your identity and you can’t long-term be happy in a relationship without it being met. You can try to repress a fetish, but ultimately it will surface.

I have two main areas, which are quite closely related, and I would say are fetishes rather than kinks. Ideally a partner would be up for both; if she was up for one but not the other that could work; but thinking about it now, if she was a hard no on both, that would be a problem.

One is spanking. This would be in the context of carefully constructed roleplay, and (unlike the second) it doesn’t particularly matter what her personality is like outside of that. What I think it’s really about is someone being able to swallow their pride, to accept they’ve made a mistake and should be punished for it, with the actual spanking being enough that it’s not an anticlimax but by no means extreme. What I’ve found with most of the online community is that the fantasy is for spankings to be long and brutal and given on the slightest pretext, and/or for the punishment to be an excuse to leer at genitals, either of which ruin it for me. (My fetish is actually very even between giving, receiving, or observing roles, though from what I’ve seen, straight women who aren’t being paid for it are much more likely to be submissive than dominant.)

The other I would describe as mild exhibitionism, specifically from someone who is otherwise very sweet, wholesome and butter wouldn’t melt. The action that meets it most easily and reliably is the person wearing racier swimwear than you’d have expected from her (e.g. a thong bikini – in a context where it’s quite normal and no-one’s really batting an eyelid). There are various other ways to meet it, which can include being more open about sex again than you’d have expected from her, albeit in a measured and sensitive way. The online community on this one tends to go very quickly not just to full nudism, but into group sex, wife swapping and cuckolding, which are way beyond what the fetish is for me.

So, that’s me being more candid about these aspects of myself than I ever have before. I have no idea how I’d find someone open to them – I doubt she’d be within the ranks of the “hard” kink community. But it’s probably true that in the past I was just looking to find someone, anyone who might admit to having the right kind of feelings for me, which never worked and led in the wrong directions, rather than asking myself what I really wanted from a girlfriend.

[Enail]

Honestly, that sounds like the kind of thing that there would be a lot more people out there up for it than something more extreme, but also that might be trickier to find since a lot of those people may not even particularly define themselves as kinky, especially if it's important enough to you to be a must-have that you'd want to filter for reasonably early on.

[inbloomer]

I agree – there probably are quite a few women around who would be happy to do one or both of those. But on the surface, these women may be indistinguishable from ones whose idea of a complete sex life is ultra-conventional and are uncomprehending of anything else. So, it’s challenging to know how to filter between them.

But, after thinking for a long time that these were aspects of myself I could just abandon if the ultra-conventional opportunity came up, I’m realising they have always been part of what I am and always will be.

[Datelessman]

Thanks for the kind words and support, everyone. I also really appreciate your own disclosure about this kind of stuff, KMR and inbloomer. I wasn't seeking like minds or trying to be a voyeur, and I do appreciate the solidarity.

Nothing to apologize for, inbloomer. For the sake of honesty I did want to admit that while I'd certainly intended to "work my way up" to discussing this here from that blog post and that you inspiring me to do it much sooner certainly felt awkward and anxious, it was inevitable. Instead of doing this by launching a text wall topic maybe in the fall or early winter, we're doing it now and I didn't have to make the topic myself. Besides, I do link my blog under my avatar and have mentioned it and the "unspoken fetish" many, many times. It would be a bit inconsistent if my reply was, "How dare you actually read the blog I link to every time I post here?"

Besides, given your own revelations, it seems as if you saw some solidarity to someone with whom you've chatted with on the forums here, and I understand wanting to capitalize on the opportunity.

I do want to clarify without being too explicit, especially since I am relearning that everyone's definition of "softcore" and "hardcore" (with "strict" somewhere in the middle) is subjective. If the low end of the scale (like 1 on a scale of 1-10) is "clothed with tied hands, maybe feet" and a 10 is "naked suspended frog-tie with leather straps, chains, clamps, ring-gag, whips and maybe hot wax," I am somewhere around a 4-6 (depending on the fan fiction I guess). My kinky fan fictions feature canon, licensed and fictional heroines, usually from official franchises, so for various reasons there is no nudity (though sometimes characters are in undies or a bikini or their usually skimpy costume that they wear on licensed bedsheets) and it isn't essential for me. In some text roleplays I am willing to have some of that but only if the submissive character (not just the human playing her, but the actual character in the session) is consenting and into it. "Non-consensual" (usually shortened to "non-con") and/or "forced slavery" are quite common fetishes on Deviantart (and elsewhere) but that is not my bag at all. It makes me uncomfortable to try writing even in text.

Some writers I dub as "just the scene;" they write the kinky scene itself and maybe some stuff before or after for context and that's that, and that is a valid style and some folks are very good at it. Due to my own quirks and how I came into the, uh, fetish to begin with, I will write at least a basic story which builds up to it, like a typical episode, issue, or instalment of the franchise, just with the kinky part embellished and lasting longer than a commercial break, with an ending and resolution. In most of the stories, the heroine (usually heroines) free themselves (or herself). I often get about as much enjoyment out of the exposition and the escape as the bondage itself. Some stories are rescues. It depends on the franchise and character, or my whim. And yes, in some stories it is consensual. I even do some which are comedic, which is fun. I am doing a roleplay now with someone who wanted a heroine from a sitcom (who is rarely requested so I saw it as a challenge) and seemed genuinely and pleasantly surprised when I went about writing it like the show with the other characters and directing style.

I will say one thing which is positive about writing these, besides the feedback from people on DA, is that it demonstrates to myself that I do not have a set "type." I can't count how many times I have been asked, "what kind of woman are you into visually/looks wise" and my answer always is some version of "it depends" and usually that is seen as wishy washy or defensive. Well, my fic library involves plenty of different women of different ages (though no minors obviously), ethnicities, sizes, and ages. For those not in the know, in this community, women who are over 40-50 are described as "mature" which I guess is the nicer way of saying "older." I've never seen beauty as only one type of woman and if anything, the stories reflect that without me deliberately trying. Like when I was young and one of my pals would go, "oh, I love blondes," I would think, "How limiting," but not say that.

I was not kidding when I said I knew all the terminology.

I am very aware that kinks and fetishes have been with us since forever. Lord knows part of the fascination with vampire fiction since the Victorian era was related to that. A vampire bite is really just a hickey, essentially. The dashing, mysterious stranger who comes out of nowhere and has some ability to "overcome" a local townswoman's resistance has always had a hand in that (especially in an era where a woman revealing her calves was pornographic). William Moulton Marston, the "Dr. Phil" of the 1920s and 1930s, of course, had a very kinky life with a live-in mistress with his wife and many of these notions were embedded in his signature creation, Wonder Woman. Betty Page became legendary for this kind of stuff in the 1950s. And so on. I don't doubt any of that (although I was far less aware of most of that until I was already in college).

And to Enail's point, my own brief research online suggests that some of the first appearances of the term "kinkshame," in that context, started to emerge out of LiveJournals around 2008 (when I was 26 and long finished with college). And of course, 2011's book "50 Shades Of Grey" seemed to propel some of this stuff into the "soccer mom" realm, with the movies starting a few years later (even though lots of folks claimed the book and/or depictions of BDSM in it are "problematic").

I do think much if not all of my shame about this particular fetish comes from my background and to a degree where society was at the time. These modern attempts to bring this stuff to the mainstream really didn't hit until I was already in my mid-20s and part of the working, "adult" world. For one thing, I knew from a very early age that my mother was NOT understanding or receptive to this kind of stuff. I distinctly remember a few times when we were watching some movie or TV show where a woman got tied up and she would lament something to the effect of, "I wish they wouldn't show this stuff, it only encourages others." Given her own traumas and history (which I will not recount), I understand why my mother felt this way, but as a kid and teenager it certainly helped develop negative feelings about my own "interests." And while I am an atheist, I can't discount my formative years at a private Catholic school (kindergarten thru 5th grade) which also enforced a very black and white view of morality. Ironically, that Catholic school was not only what turned me off to all religion, but probably helped me develop a cynicism to anyone which claimed had all the answers. I once confronted one of my teachers there before I was ten with the question, "If Jesus was perfect, why were none of the Twelve Apostles women?" and not being satisfied with whatever answers she gave.

But it wasn't just this; there wasn't as much open support for this kind of thing, beyond it happening "innocently" in tons of cartoons and TV shows, during the 80s and 90s. That was also the peak of the whole "boys don't cry" stuff. And as an understatement, it is very tough to unlearn things after a few decades, especially when they're deeply entrenched.

Another understatement is I have put a LOT of thought as to my virginity and what would happen if some asked or somehow found out or whether I should reveal it and blah blah blah. Y'know how much thought I have put into revealing my fetish to someone else in "meatspace?" None. Zero. Somewhere along the line I kind of decided to bury it even deeper than the virginity thing, which is why I'm just now getting around to talking about it candidly after, what, a near decade?

The main thing for me which leads to a lot of my own negative feelings about it, especially lately, is overlap. I'm not just a guy with a fetish for softcore bondage. I am an older male virgin, who lives with his mother, who has at least had some frustration with his love life, who is also into seeing women tied up. I am aware that this is another kind of thing that sex workers "offer," but that adds another layer if I were to pursue that option. I already "fit the profile" to every "unsub" who shows up in fictional shows like CRIMINAL MINDS to real life docs like FBI FILES. My own "shame" if it doesn't lead me to not pursue it in safe, private ways, of course. But that also helps fit the negative self-loop.

To answer another question (from KMR), no, I don't get judgemental about other people's fetishes. I encounter those on DA which are not my cup of tea all the time but I don't write on someone's profile or anything (even those into "lolis," short for "lolitas," which can be "problematic" at least for the terms and conditions of some sites). I never got like ANGELS WITH DIRTY SOULS and called anyone "you filthy animal." DA is an inviting environment for that stuff (so long as you're not a jerk, which seems to be a universal criteria), so it has helped. Many of the RPers that I have texted with have some kink which is not my bag and I don't harsh on their mellows. Then again, I just am there with an alter ego. I don't talk about my real life there. But why would I judge myself more harshly? Probably for the same reason I judge myself more harshly in most other contexts; I know myself too well. It's like DNL says; I know all of my own raw unedited footage. I remember every mistake, every flaw, every selfish moment or outburst. I remember when I am full of crap. And apparently I can be a very unforgiving kind of person when I feel someone has fundamentally wronged me. Unfortunately, one of the primary persons who I usually feel has wronged me is myself. Objectively I know a lot of that is unfair; I still have resentment about choices I made as a pre-teen.

The fetish is not an obsession that I bring into real life encounters. On all of the (few) dates I was on (including one as an actual teenager), I never visualized or fantasized about the women I was with being that way. I last did a speed dating event in 2015 and I wasn't mentally picturing anything like that. Inbloomer has an interesting definition between what is a kink or a fetish and I am fairly confident that I could have sex without requiring the fetish; in fact that is the game-plan. If you think I would be a nervous wreck during missionary, vanilla sex, can you imagine what would happen if she asked to be tied to a headboard? I'd probably stammer more than an Adam Sandler character. Fantasies, though, don't always have to be expressed, as has been said.

For what it is worth, inbloomer, you're right that your own kinks are "adjacent" to the ones I have. Spanking and/or exhibitionism pop up all the time in those circles. An otherwise "wholesome" woman wearing racy swimwear also pops up in a lot of mainstream stuff (i.e. most teenage sex comedies and enough anime that they call it "fan service"). And yeah, spanking was one of Betty Page's famous acts in the 50s. And there is a gulf in intensity between "light paddle or smacks of the hand" to "cat o' nine tails whip." I understand the sense of shame from it but I would concur, and return the supportive words, that they're not "all bad." Intellectually, so long as no unwilling person is getting hurt, it is okay.

[inbloomer]

This is the programme I listened to:

Tricky - What’s the difference between a kink and a fetish? - BBC Sounds
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09nt03c

What comes across from what we’ve both written is a clear idea of negotiated consent. We’re articulating in terms of “it’s this on a scale of 1 to 10 … this aspect doesn’t matter but that one does…” – and also the idea of adjacency, i.e. fetishes that aren’t quite our thing but are close enough that we could be supportive of a partner who had it

The common belief I’ve found particularly difficult to fit in with is that “love conquers all”, i.e. that partners are meant to be so in sync and intoxicated with each other that things just happen – whereas discussion and negotiation are inherently cold and weird and unsexy.

That belief is still quite prevalent and was even more so when I was growing up. There may be some couples it genuinely works for, but often it seemed to lead to couples where one partner was bossy and assertive and the other much more passive. To be fair, some people are lazy and probably prefer to have a partner just run the relationship for them, rather than having to work out all their own preferences. But I’ve never liked the thought of being on either side of that (when people have stories about “she took me by the hand and had her wicked way with me”, they never sound appealing).

The other point you made that stands out was about visualisation. As someone who is very visual and imaginative on everything else, I’ve rarely pictured women I’ve known in either fetish or vanilla situations – though I’ve regularly imagined and dreamed about other parts of a relationship, e.g. meeting someone I have slam-dunk chemistry with, telling everyone I have a girlfriend etc. People have on occasion accused me of not being clear enough about my intentions, but if true I think that was down to not knowing them rather than concealing them. But perhaps having a clear idea of what you want from someone is a healthy starting point for negotiation rather than disrespectful.

[Datelessman]

As I have grown up, I've grown to learn that the idea of a couple having unconscious chemistry where "things just happen" with zero discussion and just a montage of mashing bodies is either pure fiction (as churned out by entertainment media since forever) or highly exaggerated (or the result of outside substances for one or both). Also remember that a great deal of the folks writing this stuff or insisting on it being real are straight men, who may have a position of authority and/or not be objective writers (i.e. of course many dudes would love to "get down to the sexy bits" without annoying things like "talking"). I mean DNL has letters all the time where the main advice is "slow your roll" or "small talk isn't the enemy."

I'm only responding from the position of now having done dozens of text roleplay sessions regarding the fetish on Deviantart (and a few rare ones elsewhere), but the idea that a "discussion and negotiation are inherently cold and weird and unsexy" is just not my experience. In the circles I travel in online, such discussions are typically called "brainstorming" and are essential for those who are more serious. In fact, many folks complain about others who don't want to do that and just jump in with roleplaying whatever they want (usually in crude language). And while neither of us flirt while we discuss these things for a text roleplay (it's usually considered weird or creepy if that happened), I never find such discussions (or planning dialogues) "cold" or "weird." In fact I think some folks on DA prefer that than the actual roleplaying; I've had a few be very active for the planning or discussion and then ghost me once things "started" or not long after. A roleplay isn't just one person dominating; both folks have to get something out of it or it doesn't work. I often explain that if I desired "100% of what I wanted," I wouldn't be roleplaying; I would write a story where as the author I HAVE to control everything. In a roleplay I am more interested in the other ideas someone else brings to the table and often the challenge of a different character or a scenario I didn't pitch or so on.

I genuinely don't know how much of this translates to real sex, vanilla or otherwise. But I do think it is universal that communication, somewhere down the line, is key.

As to the fetish/kink, as I have said, I have genuinely never imagined discussing this with any live person in "meatspace," or any actual lover. Yes, I have fretted for eons about coming off as inexperienced or so on, but never once imagined the kinky side since I am confident I can hide it. I mean, by the time I was fretting about still being a virgin, I'd been hiding that I enjoyed "something" about seeing women tied up for at least ten years, starting from childhood. Even most of those who proudly have kinks as their identity don't engage in that kind of sex 100% of the time. Unless someone was to specifically date exclusively within the kink community (i.e. FetLife), ideally introducing someone to that kind of thing is a part of a longer term relationship. Someone who whips out a ballgag on a first date with a rando on OKC is likely to be seen as odd.

Like I stated in my blog post, I never discussed this stuff with any of my friends. I had one from my high school group who was actually into it (from the dominant standpoint) to the point that he did actually used to carry a ball-gag in his backpack. We only discussed that a few times (where most of the discussion was him bragging), and I was far too embarrassed to reveal I was into some of that, too. I did seem to "magically" know all the terminology and he never questioned it; I assume because I come off as a "know it all." It got complicated because I knew, even in my subconscious denial mode (as a lot of folks have about friends) that he was often a domineering, borderline abusive boyfriend to at least two of his lovers when he was younger. Before "revenge porn" was a thing, he did something very close regarding his first ex. There was a lot of arguing with his second ex, and after it ended they both agreed it only lasted as long as it had because "the sex was good." At times when they'd be together at various "drinking parties," one of reasons I stayed sober (beyond being a wet blanket) was so I could intervene if anything went wrong. I once removed an empty bottle from his hand because he had it raised and I was afraid he'd hit her. So, not the kind of fellow I felt I could have a frank discussion about this kind of stuff with.

Looking back as I type this, I wonder if one of the first people in real life that I ever met turning out to...not be ideal boyfriend material (at least in his teens and early 20s) contributed to some of the isolation and shame I've felt about the kink.

I can't speak for everyone but having a creative outlet for my kink has definitely helped, especially over the last 2 years when I more actively pursued that community versus just "lurking" for a third decade. And the warm support in this topic is also good.

[Werel]

Very late to this discussion, but I want to second this point:

But perhaps having a clear idea of what you want from someone is a healthy starting point for negotiation rather than disrespectful.

Yes x1000. Knowing what you want is one of the most important things you can bring to a potential sexual encounter - even if that knowledge is mostly born of fantasy or solo experience, it gives you a starting point for engaging honestly and clearly.

I won't go too deep either, but as somebody with some experience on the other side of (mild, relatively tame) power dynamics, a big red flag is when potential subs describe their interests as "everything!" or "whatever you want!" People who can't articulate their own needs or boundaries, including in a submissive position, aren't going to be able to bring the kinds of crystal-clear consent & trust needed to do any sort of power exchange. (And being able to articulate your needs and boundaries is key for any kind of sex, kinky or no.)

I think the best encounters actually happen with people who are very clear about what they want and what they're not up for - who own themselves and their sexuality. Working through this internalized shame is actually a way to make yourself less of the kind of cartoon villain you're afraid of being perceived as, Datelessman - a dude who can comfortably, affably describe his preferences when asked (or when any kind of physical intimacy is on the table) is way more trustworthy in my book than one who brushes it off with "oh, NORMAL STUFF". Any kind of squirreliness, or anxiety/shame about being transparent, make me more nervous than someone who's up-front about having a kink WAY outside my interest zone. I'd rather hear someone say "I have a thing for being eaten by muscular anthropomorphic sharks" than "idk wbu" every single time. I may not be a good bedroom match with Mr. Muscular Anthropomorphic Sharks, but I'm more likely to be down to try something unusual if the person interacts around it in a good way. How they talk about their interests that tells me more about their moral compass and interpersonal approach than whatever specifics they're into.

[Datelessman]

I think the best encounters actually happen with people who are very clear about what they want and what they're not up for - who own themselves and their sexuality. Working through this internalized shame is actually a way to make yourself less of the kind of cartoon villain you're afraid of being perceived as, Datelessman - a dude who can comfortably, affably describe his preferences when asked (or when any kind of physical intimacy is on the table) is way more trustworthy in my book than one who brushes it off with "oh, NORMAL STUFF". Any kind of squirreliness, or anxiety/shame about being transparent, make me more nervous than someone who's up-front about having a kink WAY outside my interest zone. I'd rather hear someone say "I have a thing for being eaten by muscular anthropomorphic sharks" than "idk wbu" every single time. I may not be a good bedroom match with Mr. Muscular Anthropomorphic Sharks, but I'm more likely to be down to try something unusual if the person interacts around it in a good way. How they talk about their interests that tells me more about their moral compass and interpersonal approach than whatever specifics they're into.

Don't worry, you're not too late. This topic is only a few weeks old and now "officially" notes a reply from almost every regular around this forum. I think at this point only Glides and The Mikey are missing.

I wanted to reply to this point not to disagree, but to state that I am unsure of mentioning stuff such as kinks or fetishes within the very first sexual discussion (or conversation or negotiation or whatever) with a new lover. People have always told me, usually in attempts to get me to stop fretting about being an inexperienced virgin, that having sex for the first time between new partners is always awkward and involves some faux pas or signal setting before it (theoretically) improves with practice, even for two lovers who are not virgins (or far from virgins). Now, I have always believed the folks who says such things are well meaning, but like DNL, overly optimistic about the patience of most people (men and women), especially in the dating world. When trying to encourage shy guys to improve and keep trying, some honesty such as, "99% of the people you try to date will end the date at the first sign of being incompatible even over the slightest, pettiest thing because life is short and dating apps have ruined everything," tends to be omitted.

I think there is some overlap between revealing virginity and revealing kinkiness because I do think there is, at best, some calibration needed as to not "overshare" things too soon. Certain information, such as how many prior lovers someone has had, is technically no one's business. And as for kinks, it depends on how soon, if ever, someone wants to bring them into a relationship.

For my part, I do not think revealing such a thing in a first ever sexual encounter with someone (or in general) does me any favors. I think all it would do is scare someone off. Especially since I have never even entertained the idea of doing it "live." People have fantasies they have no intention of ever doing with another person all the time. And others tend to only be workable in a long term relationship (i.e. after folks get married and around the period when sex gets too boring otherwise). I sincerely doubt the average single woman in 2023 wants to be told by a guy as they take off their clothes for the first time, "yeah, I get aroused by seeing women tied up." That sounds like an easy way to wind up in "Nopeville," population "get out of my room or I call the police." Because if a woman is wrong about who she chooses to entertain that stuff with, she'll wind up profiled on 48 Hours, so it is usually safer to just be overly protective with dudes she doesn't know well yet.

I mean, I am going to be a nervous, anxiety wracked mess for my first sexual encounter, period. I have no idea how I am going to react. I doubt I'd cry but I can say the probability of that is above zero. The odds of me choking at the last minute and wanting to "just lay here and talk" are somewhere around 25-45%. And that would just be for vanilla missionary. If she said, "y'know what would be great? If you tied my hands to the headboard," I just might jump out the window or pass out. Or have to go through the motions of pretending I've never heard of such a thing or only doing it because she wants it, and all that.

Part of the reason why I started regularly writing fetish fan fiction and doing text roleplays regarding the kink, was to adjust myself from being so ashamed of my kink that I denied it even to myself as I engaged in it to some degree daily (or every other day) to at least acknowledging it to myself and interacting with others. It took me 2 years of that just to work up the nerve to entertain posting about it on my blog. And my discussion of it here, while inevitable, happened a little sooner than I'd expected. I sincerely, fundamentally doubt I am revealing it to a lover in person in any capacity anytime soon. I'm certainly not doing so for my first ever encounter, if and when it ever happens.

A part of me thinks, "can't I just get laid like a normal person? Do I have to reveal how woefully inexperienced I am, or conversely, that I'm a wanna-be softcore bondage dominant? Can't I just achieve what most dudes accomplished in high school by accident and then work from there?" I mean, countless boring people have sex and get laid. Why do I have to reveal everything awkward about myself to get there? The inexperience thing is at least useful if I want a mulligan (i.e. a fair excuse for being terrible). Revealing a kink does me no real favors and may scare someone off a lot sooner than the virginity thing might. I may project myself as "The Friendly Neighborhood Dom" on Deviantart, but that's easy to do in text (and with a small library of work to back myself up). That's tough to do in person with a relative stranger.

Right now I am at the level of, "slowly getting comfortable talking about this online with more people outside of a kink setting." I think discussing this with any woman in real life is a few levels higher than I am ready for. It doesn't help that there's really no one in my life I would feel comfortable talking about this. I doubt I would be in a rush to admit it in therapy.

Would I be comfortable if I was on a normal date and a woman volunteered, with no prompting from me, that she was into that kind of thing? No. I wouldn't. My heart rate would increase to the point that I'd make a lie detector explode. It's similar to if a woman I was on a date with was chatting about what kind of movies and TV she liked and volunteered stuff like, "The 40 Year Old Virgin is my favorite comedy movie" or "Older virgins like Steve Rogers and Clark Kent turn me on." Would I then admit I was an older virgin? No. I'd feel on the spot, like I was somehow on a date with Jean Grey or Miss Martian and she was reading my mind without permission. I think there is a time and place to be super vulnerable with people and I am not comfortable exposing too much of that too soon.

[inbloomer]

So, what's puzzling me is that in your fetish you're in a dominant role. But in this fantasy of a first sexual encounter that you seem to keep coming back to, including the in-depth description you did on your blog a while back, you're in a far more passive and submissive role, with the woman being a man-eater and you on a white-knuckle, flying by the seat of your pants ride, desperately trying to avoid saying or doing one wrong thing that would get her threatening to call the police. Any other possibility, whenever people have tried to suggest it, you seem to bat away or find excuses to dismiss.

I don't get whether that is what you really want, if you think it's the least unlikely possibility, if you're trying to make yourself feel you aren't missing out that much, or if what you actually want feels more uncomfortable in some way.

I think it is important to sort that out, because yes - presumably the whole point of having sex with strangers is to get sex without having to be vulnerable in other ways, and some people do operate like that, but it's not the only way that people form relationships.

[Datelessman]

Spoiler:

For one thing, I blogged that "dream date" post a few months before I decided to start writing on Deviantart in '21 so there could have still been some hint of denial about certain things. And for another, I thought it was fairly indulgent. It was a fictionalized 4th wall knocking post about encountering a quirky, successful, good humored and confident woman who was also eternally patient and flattering, who wanted to sleep with me on a first date and had a cat. I mean that's as close as I get to wish fulfilment without entering the realm of absurdity.

I don't think it's that mysterious. Many fantasies revolve around a role that I or we wish we had in real life but don't or at least are curious about. The old cliche that the Wall Street tycoon who spends most of his time dominating others who gets off on being spanked by a dominatrix in private exists for a reason. For various reasons (real or imagined) I usually feel powerless, outmatched or at the very least out of my element with women in a romantic setting. My fetish involves not being so, without being cruel about it.

There is a lot of it I don't know. Certainly seeing so many fictional women/young women in the media I absorbed from a very young age that I connected to yet were in that position a lot played some role in it. It got intertwined with learning about arousal in general, at a time and place where it was not acceptable to admit that kind of thing (that fetish) or discuss it openly. Again, by the time an Internet was emerging that I could peek at, I was already a teenager in high school. And that was in the primal GeoCities days. By the time social media evolved further I was almost done with college.

It isn't so much that I want a non-kink encounter to go a certain way. I put a difference between a fantasy and envisioning. The former is fictional; a setting I accept that isn't real (like a bondage story involving a licensed heroine or a text roleplay). The latter is some attempted approximation at what I expect is the most likely to occur, given myself, my region, and the dating pool in my age range (which at this point should really begin with 30 and over at the youngest). Many older women in NY tend know what they want (which is a GOOD THING) and don't suffer fools long.

I always suspect I get an eye roll over this, but I want to remind everyone that I live in New York. The reputation of everyone being fast paced, rude, impatient, and apathetic about things has a nugget of truth. As Jon Taffer would say on BAR RESCUE, in New York I am "below the market." My life, job, and sick mother are here and I can't move.

In real life, at least in a romantic setting, I see myself at a distinct and eternal disadvantage for my age. I haven't the experience to know what to do, or even have a grasp of what I want. By my age straight men are either committed or devoted to living for short term stuff, and I don't know. In an initial sexual encounter I'll be experiencing it all for the first time. By that point kissing would have been a new experience (since most folks work up, so like after a couple of dates maybe you kiss and so on). I'm not conventionally attractive enough to smooth over my faults, and my sense of humor in NY is a dime a dozen. Everyone's a sarcastic wise-guy here. I know intellectually that a woman has to invest a lot more, has more social pressure, and has more to fear (i.e. actual assault and murder), but emotionally I feel like a mouse entering a lion cage. I'm either beneath their notice or a mild snack. And all the while I am hiding all this because I have no intention of revealing how inexperienced I am, because I feel it is divisive. My best answer for nerve and jitters will be, "I haven't dated in a long time," which is not a lie.

In a text fetish roleplay (or drafting a story), though, the position is different. I'm not a lost cub. I know all the terms, codewords, materials, and most importantly, what I am looking for out of it, my own turn ons and turn offs, and what I can do for another. I even know many of the expectations of the audience in the "community," to a point. I see rolling with what I am handed by the other person in terms of scenario or so on as a challenge since it did not come from my mind; I have to adapt and the adaptation is fun. It's long distance so there is no risk, and how either of us looks doesn't matter. I have experience with writing and text roleplay. I can be in control but at the same time, know myself not to go too far (or if I do and someone says, "hey, not cool," I accommodate and amend on the fly, assuming we didn't go over it brainstorming specifically to avoid that). Freed from doubt or anxiety or even form (since it is all text), my imagination, which is one of my few assets, can really stretch. And above all, I have received positive reinforcement. I even have a couple of "regulars" with whom we have done a few different sessions (even if a lot of the themes they want remain the same).

I isn't that I dismiss the possibility of having a first sexual encounter with someone kind, funny, confident, patient, and sensitive (and a bit adventurous). I just doubt that is very probable, at least for my first time, nor am I going to bypass reasonable opportunities looking for it. Few people's first times are perfect or ideal. I'm not letting good become the enemy of the perfect. The vast majority of single women in my dating pool will be divorced and/or single mothers and they have no time for any extra baloney. I actually had a chat with one of my friends a few months ago (who is divorced, lives out of state and has two adorable daughters) and she was describing that one of the last things she wants in a man is a "project" who has to be coddled or fixed or whatnot. She'd rather stay single and hang out with her dog than date a dude like that. And man, I am more of a project than K-MART furniture.

[inbloomer]

I think what I’m getting at is that having been caught out by it so many times, I’ve become quite cynical about situations where it all seems too easy. Like, you’ve only just met this person and she’s looking at you with shining eyes and seems to share all your interests. I think that’s generally indicative of someone who, at that particular point in her life, is saying "Yes, yes, yes!" to everything because she's desperate for attention and validation, rather than it being about you. Which then leads to a painful aftermath where she’s trying to dial down and row back (and there’s no good way of saying “I never meant any of that”), while you’re trying to recapture that initial high and can’t understand what you did wrong.

I get the feeling that true chemistry takes some time to warm up. Like, you can certainly put someone right off at the beginning, but you shouldn’t expect instant fireworks. There is a balance to strike though, as if you move too glacially then sunk cost fallacy kicks in, and it gets hard to walk away even when gut feeling is telling you this isn’t going to work.

I’m still trying to work out how I could escalate in the right way and on a sensible timescale. As I’ve said before, DNL’s “Hi, I’m developing feelings for you and would like to take you on a date this Friday!” is very American and just doesn’t work in a British context.  

I do think you’ve got stuff to build on though – how you act in roleplays is surely an energy you can bring to other contexts, even if not straight to dating. And having a first sexual encounter with someone “kind, funny, confident, patient, and sensitive (and a bit adventurous)” may not be easy to find but it’s not an unreasonable ask either. “Rocket scientist by day, lingerie model by night” would be unrealistic; this isn’t.

[Datelessman]

Chemistry absolutely takes time to warm up (sometimes). That is usually why DNL and others recommend, when dating online, to move it offline into "real life" sooner rather than later. Or, in a long term context, widen the social circle gradually to allow for more warm approaches. The theory is repeat exposure builds chemistry or interest between people or at least makes them more likely to see potential in others (i.e. friends or relatives) they can set you up with.

In practice, that's never worked for me. If anything, casually assuming it would eventually and not being more assertive or forthcoming with dating probably cost me years, if not decades, of valuable time. I am never anyone's crush. I am never the one that some woman friend/associate/casual witness wants more of in a romantic setting. I'm their boyfriend's wacky pal, or that funny dude on Facebook.

I don't think I have a problem with investing too much early on. If anything I have an opposite problem. If I did meet someone and was on an initial date and they seemed to be saying, "Yes, yes, yes!" to everything, I would be suspicious. You are right that sometimes people are looking for validation and/or attention from anyone after a dry spell or a bad breakup or so on more than a particular person and it can be awkward to shift (which is why people ghost).

I agree wholeheartedly that regions can be big facors in what does or doesn't work with dating or approaching. Enail sometimes mentions how stuff works in Canada which is not always the same as New York or Britain. Anytime someone says, "You imagine woman as such aggressive battleaxes," I always want to say, "Have you actually been to New York, or only seen it in film, which was shot in Toronto anyway?" But it goes the other way. If I moved to a place where people were "friendlier" and actually talked to strangers, I'd be freaked out.

You once described my fetish as "chaste," and, no, I never saw it that way, even in the contexts that I write or RP about. I mean a story I write itself may be rated PG or PG-13 (with the fetish being obvious even to someone outside the community reading it) in terms of content, but how I feel about it never feels "chaste." That kind of leads to a cognitive dissonance, which may be some of the conflict I feel. I can't quite square being shy, awkward, passive, tender, and kind to women with a secret desire to become aroused seeing them in some form of bondage. I've simply become more aware and accepting that the "other side" exists. Call it Dateless-Man versus Dominant-Man. I've never kissed a woman in my life but I know what hogties or box-ties are. If a woman takes off her panties I'd be lost in the wilderness but if she asks for a gag, my Id reply is, "Tape, detective, stuffing, or ball?" and explain how I am not a fan of certain types (i.e. many of my DA readers and RP'ers like stuffing but I am not turned on by the risk of choking).

And wow, that got specific fast.

Another angle, which I may as well share since this is the topic for it, is as I have done more overt writing and exploring with my fetish since 2021, certain tropes which I didn't realize I liked have become frequent things. In the community, a story which has more than one heroine is dubbed, "multiple damsels" or something like that. When I started I decided to try it to make my stories stand out or seem more impressive than other writers. Then I found out I liked it so almost all of my stories have a heroine with a pal. And now I sometimes fret that I am fetishizing lesbians because that is TOTALLY a thing that many men (and in fairness, many women) do and it gets squicky fast to fetishize an entire group of people. I mean, "girl on girl action" is a cliche in porn for a reason. There is another detail of that in which two heroines who are gagged kind of "kiss" and in the community that is called "gag-kiss," and again, it is something I threw into a story because I knew it was a trope some of my readers liked or expected and found I liked it more than I realized so it popped up more often (though not as often). And in the stories themselves I portray that as fleeting, kind of "Lady and the Tramp" style accidental moments that happen during an escape or a moment of desperation and the tone is upbeat from a positive place and not just as a voyeur, but it, again, makes me worry I am fetishizing lesbians which bothers me because I have LGBTQ+ friends and always have (at least since high school) and the idea of fetishizing a group feels wrong to me. Basically, is it possible to be both a progressive and at least mildly kinky without being a hypocrite?

I suppose the best I can tell myself is I am hardly the first writer to delve into this stuff. More than one NANCY DREW book involved the title heroine getting into some kind of trouble with one or more of her friends, and Nancy Drew literally predates Batman. In one book I think Nancy, George (short for Georgia), and Bess are tied up in a hot room together and come on-, it's subtext.

Do I think I have stuff to build on romantically? I don't know. At the very least the text RPing has taught me the key of communication. The best way to avoid awkwardness or mistakes is to discuss what folks like beforehand. And to adjust if something is not working without taking it personal or being stubborn. I mean if the idea is that two people have to enjoy it, focusing just on me is selfish. That said, “kind, funny, confident, patient, and sensitive (and a bit adventurous)” is quite rare in New York in my age cohort, of either gender. Many of the single local women in my age group by this point are "overworked, underpaid, impatient, jaded, defensive, and would rather have Netflix and their pet than date anyone." Which I get, because I embody a bit of that too and understand that life for most women is just an unwanted endurance test of sexist garbage being showered on them. No one has time for kinky man-babies in a time where abortion is being ended and everyone is broke.

I might be a good therapy date. Like if a woman does need validation and would like to know what it is like to be desired, especially after a breakup or dry spell or, sadly, existing while over 35, I'm their man. I might even get some satisfaction in that. I'd just like to get more out of it than a CPR dummy. But until then I have my writing and my imagination.

And yes, reading that I am not alone and that some of my tastes are not so monstrous by fellow posters here and on the blog has helped.

[Enail]

Another angle, which I may as well share since this is the topic for it, is as I have done more overt writing and exploring with my fetish since 2021, certain tropes which I didn't realize I liked have become frequent things. In the community, a story which has more than one heroine is dubbed, "multiple damsels" or something like that. When I started I decided to try it to make my stories stand out or seem more impressive than other writers. Then I found out I liked it so almost all of my stories have a heroine with a pal. And now I sometimes fret that I am fetishizing lesbians because that is TOTALLY a thing that many men (and in fairness, many women) do and it gets squicky fast to fetishize an entire group of people. I mean, "girl on girl action" is a cliche in porn for a reason. There is another detail of that in which two heroines who are gagged kind of "kiss" and in the community that is called "gag-kiss," and again, it is something I threw into a story because I knew it was a trope some of my readers liked or expected and found I liked it more than I realized so it popped up more often (though not as often). And in the stories themselves I protray that as fleeting, kind of "Lady and the Tramp" style accidental moments that happen during an escape or a moment of desperation and the tone is upbeat from a positive place and not just as a voyeur, but it, again, makes me worry I am fetishizing lesbians which bothers me because I have LGBTQ+ friends and always have (at least since high school) and the idea of fetishizing a group feels wrong to me. Basically, is it possible to be both a progressive and at least mildly kinky without being a hypocrite?

Absolutely it's possible! That's a pretty basic premise of what I'd consider modern "progressive" views, in fact - sex and sexual thoughts are not inherently bad, and people should be able to engage in about whatever sort of sex acts they like as long as they're only involving adults able to freely consent.  What turns you on is just what turns you on; what matters for living according to your values is how your actions affect others.  

You're not plastering your writing on billboards where real-life lesbians who don't want to have to engage with whatever you're thinking about them sexually, might unwittingly read it.  You're not (I think it's safe to assume) going into every interaction with a real-life lesbian projecting the last character you wrote onto them and looking at everything they do through that lens or thinking so intensely it that it affects how you engage with the actual person in front of you; you're not reacting to a woman mentioning her girlfriend with "that's hot," or "ooh, do you two ever kiss while gagged," you're not leering or giving off uncomfortable vibes, you're not trying to subtly steer them into situations of "haha wouldn't it be funny if you two tied each other up to make this pickup basketball match harder." You're not treating actual lesbian relationships as things that only exist for male attention, you're not voting for sex between two women to be legal but between two men to be illegal, or only treating queer people with respect if you find them attractive and their potential sex life hot.  You're also, I believe, not presenting yourself as being morally against kink or sexual fantasies or lesbians, nor, say, making being against lgbt rights or even sex outside of heterosexual marriage and procreation part of your image to further your career.

So I don't see the hypocrisy there. You're acting according to your progressive beliefs and respect for other human beings, and you're enjoying whatever fantasies you like without imposing them on anyone who doesn't want to hear about them or letting them affect your treatment of people outside of that opt-in context. That's how it's supposed to work.

[Datelessman]

Absolutely it's possible! That's a pretty basic premise of what I'd consider modern "progressive" views, in fact - sex and sexual thoughts are not inherently bad, and people should be able to engage in about whatever sort of sex acts they like as long as they're only involving adults able to freely consent.  What turns you on is just what turns you on; what matters for living according to your values is how your actions affect others.  

You're not plastering your writing on billboards where real-life lesbians who don't want to have to engage with whatever you're thinking about them sexually, might unwittingly read it.  You're not (I think it's safe to assume) going into every interaction with a real-life lesbian projecting the last character you wrote onto them and looking at everything they do through that lens or thinking so intensely it that it affects how you engage with the actual person in front of you; you're not reacting to a woman mentioning her girlfriend with "that's hot," or "ooh, do you two ever kiss while gagged," you're not leering or giving off uncomfortable vibes, you're not trying to subtly steer them into situations of "haha wouldn't it be funny if you two tied each other up to make this pickup basketball match harder." You're not treating actual lesbian relationships as things that only exist for male attention, you're not voting for sex between two women to be legal but between two men to be illegal, or only treating queer people with respect if you find them attractive and their potential sex life hot.  You're also, I believe, not presenting yourself as being morally against kink or sexual fantasies or lesbians, nor, say, making being against lgbt rights or even sex outside of heterosexual marriage and procreation part of your image to further your career.

So I don't see the hypocrisy there. You're acting according to your progressive beliefs and respect for other human beings, and you're enjoying whatever fantasies you like without imposing them on anyone who doesn't want to hear about them or letting them affect your treatment of people outside of that opt-in context. That's how it's supposed to work.

Thank you. No, I do not do or think of doing any of those things. You have made your point, and quite well I might add. Reading that did help.

And for the record, though I didn't get that vibe anywhere in your response, I wasn't trying to call you out for a response specifically or anything. Nor do I expect you to speak for all people in LGBTQ+ community.

The concern popped into my mind because now that I have over three dozen kinky stories in my "library" at DA sometimes I take a step back and examine the themes and stuff which keeps popping up. They are a means of me safely exploring some of this stuff and while it is fiction, obviously some of my own feelings about stuff somewhere come thru. Most of the captors (or at least the characters who do the actual tying) in most of my stories are also women. And while part of that is for the "turnabout" trope (wherein a formerly captive heroine escapes and turns the tables) since I am not into dudes being tied up, that mixed with other stuff did cause some concerns for me. Having more than one heroine in a story, at least for functional reasons, allows for more than one of them to work towards the escape since the vast majority of my stories feature the heroine(s) escaping on their own, not being rescued by a dude (which I sometimes see as a cop-out). Sometimes figuring out the escape is part of the fun. And since the line between my blog and this forum has blurred a little, I figured if I brought it up there, it would eventually make its way here so why not bring it up here. Unlike some people, I had a brief experience knowing someone (my mother's older friend) who eventually revealed that she did fetishize folks like me and I am aware that it can be awkward at best and creepy at worst.

Though in fairness I will concede that despite my recent attempts to embrace or at least acknowledge or admit this side of me, there is many years of self-shame to dig out of and sometimes some nugget of my Super-Ego may point at something and say, "see, look, you're a deviant."

It's tough to explain without actually linking to the stories (which I am NOT DOING for a whole host of reasons), but usually when I bring up some of that stuff beyond subtext in a story, the tone isn't just to leer or anything, but to kind of showcase kind of a positive approval, that it is okay for a character (especially a capable, maybe famous heroine of some kind) to have these feelings, or a moment of curiosity or solidarity, or so on. I haven't sat down and done a tally but I wouldn't be surprised if a few of my stories passed the Bechdel Test.

Now, I am not trying to make myself sound like a diplomat. I write softcore kinky bondage smut, not articles for Ms. magazine. But I also write them as complete stories with some kind of theme beyond the bondage, because in my mind it works better for me that way. Another thing which kind of bothered me in the community and in DA was how overwhelmingly white a lot of the heroines in art or other writers' stories are and while peoples' tastes are what they are, I never saw desirability as being so limited. Again, I am not trying to preach diversity with smut, but one of the positive things I see about my work is the various heroines of varying ethnic backgrounds and sizes (and I do mean the latter; at least three of my stories feature heroines who are full figured, two of which are the stars). I actually like focusing on some heroines who rarely get stories written about them, even if some of my commenters would prefer some more of the "usual suspects." I sometimes wonder how awkward it may be to be a person of color trying to find smut of folks who look like them sometimes, which DOESN'T seem too fetishized (because some people absolutely fetishize people of color), which is a problem I never had.

It also helps that, at least in comic books, it has become a lot more mainstream to have actual licensed heroines flirt with each other or allude to being curious about someone. It isn't something which happens with male heroes for various reasons I could speculate, but it isn't so unusual to read a few comics starring ladies where you could find dialogue which alludes to interest or flat-out revelations that a character is bi or curious or whatnot. And believe it or not a lot of times these are stories written by writers who are also women. So when I write a story I am not just jamming in my own tastes onto a character, I usually am using a character who in actual source material revealed or alluded to being curious or bi or even into consensual bondage and just making it more obvious. Usually when I write a character for the first time I go into their backstory a bit for exposition to get into their heads, and I don't know if my readers are always thrilled with that but it makes it work for me.

Yes, I am such a dork that I try to adhere to character continuity when writing kinky bondage fan-fiction. I actually consider that a challenge. It's just too easy to just take a character and pretend none of that matters for my convenience. It is more fun for me to make it seem like a typical adventure that just gets more kinky or embellishes the kinky stuff that was always there (i.e. that heroines get captured sometimes). I do have some respect for the characters even if I am having then star in a kinky adventure. I've become an avante guarde fetishist.

[Enail]

And for the record, though I didn't get that vibe anywhere in your response, I wasn't trying to call you out for a response specifically or anything. Nor do I expect you to speak for all people in LGBTQ+ community.

No worries, I didn't feel like you were!

[Datelessman]

Since inbloomer hasn't posted on his own topic, I just wanted to make clear that I didn't offer a wall of text reply to Enail because I didn't think one was needed. I didn't intend to bring this topic to a dead halt so if anyone wants to comment, feel free.

For my part, this has definitely been a net positive for me. It's been easier making blog posts or some posts here without having the pressure of dancing around this...thing. The positive support has also been, well, positive. I'm far from making some public announcement about this on Facebook (which I doubt is necessary) nor talking about it in "meatspace," but having one or two venues where I don't have to bottle it down and can talk frankly about it has helped. So, thanks.

[inbloomer]

It hasn't been deliberate not to reply - I've been quite busy with other things, and had a few attempts at composing a reply that didn't quite hit it.

The gist of what I was trying to draft is that there's one big group of people for whom partnered sex is one of their main interests, and while having sex with strangers probably isn't their first choice, they will do it if alternatives aren't available. Someone from that group is what you consistently imagine having a first experience with. But as you also recognise, that kind of person probably doesn't have much patience for an angsty and hesitant partner.

There's another big group, which is people who like relationships but want the sex to be very simple and controlled, i.e. they do a few things for their partner and that's it, sex isn't something they have to think, worry or talk about much. That's the kind of person who is likely to freak if they discover their partner has even a very tame fetish.

Certainly for me, I don't think either of those groups is right. There must be women - even if they're relatively uncommon - who do fall between the two, who are open-minded in thought yet have probably been more hesitant in action.

[Datelessman]

My apologizes if it seemed as I was "calling you out" or anything. It wasn't my intention.

While this may warrant a side eye from some posters who've read my stuff, I try not to lump women into rigid categories. I admit I do so in practice, but it isn't something I intentionally try to do; it comes out when I think or write about such things too long and am not careful. I do think there more than three "big groups" of women when it comes to sexual preferences. Libido varies in everyone; some folks are insatiable and some folks genuinely don't care for it (without necessarily being asexual), with a wide spectrum in between that can change over time or circumstance. I've sometimes joked that my sheer presence can cure nymphomania in straight women.

Region and culture also play big roles here. Until very recently, women were almost universally shamed for being promiscuous in the U.S. and even now, it's at a baby step level compared to men. Some regions are more conservative than others. Thanks to some degree to the media, New York (and California and other blue state areas) are stereotyped as free wheeling places sexually where everyone is romping together, and that's not true. Various studies have shown that even before Covid-19 (which one of my fellow bloggers and another former older male virgin has called "C**k-block 19"), a notable portion of people between 18-35 reported having no sex in 2-5 years. Various magazines and other talking heads seem to be freaking out that Millennials and Zoomers are having less sex and marrying less often than Boomers and Generation X'ers did. And there are tons of reasons for this (i.e. life is a cesspool of capitalistic misery) which are beyond the scope.

Despite the newfound comfort in at least discussing my fetish in some venues honestly (my blog and here), it isn't something I ever plan or expect to bring into a real relationship or "meat-space" as it were. It has taken me a very long time to consciously accept this part of myself, but it isn't something I ever have envisioned playing out in real life. As anxious and nervous as I would be with an initial sexual encounter in general, I would be even more so if I was with someone who wanted to kink it up (i.e. wanted to be tied up). I doubt even live action role play would help much. And I imagine even hardcore "kinksters" seldom roll that out on a first meeting with a stranger. It has to be eased in, especially since for a woman she risks being more vulnerable than usual. If a dude is a creep on a first date or a first "pawing" session, there's no way any rational woman would consent to being bound spread eagle by him (or whatever position).

It's similar to suggestions that I set up an online profile that openly admits to my virginity to "weed out" less understanding lovers (which  has been suggested to me a few times by several folks online over the years, though K-J was the last substantial one I recall). It's a very delicate and personal fact about myself that I would rather not "lead" with. The kink is similar, only with more long term shame surrounding it. Virginity, at least in theory, is not deliberate; it's just circumstance and temporary. A fetish, despite my experiences with it in childhood, "feels" like more of a choice. And I can "choose" to be aroused by it until the day I die in old age. In fact, quite a few of the writers who I "discovered" online when I was researching this stuff in the 90s were at least 10-20 years older than I am.

I suppose the dilemma of keeping it a secret is that, should I ever enter into a long term relationship where we live together (which by this stage in my life is not probable), I have a choice. I can either give it up cold turkey once we start co-mingling accounts or sharing space, or I can try to keep my fetish writing/online searches/Deviantart account "hidden". The latter almost never lasts forever; DNL gets letters all the time regarding someone "discovering" something they didn't expect when on someone's computer or phone. If I came home one day and had my significant other say, "Honey, why are there dozens of stories of cartoon heroines being hogtied and gagged on your hard drive?" I would probably be tempted to turn around and flee the state (or lie and blame hackers, while also objecting to her deleting them).

The fetish is not an obsession; I don't go wandering around imagining every woman I meet or am attracted to in some bondage scenario. I have never gone on a date or speed date and imagined any of the women there in that position; my thoughts are usually on trying to make a good impression and burying my anxiety. I've been friends with some women for over 20 years (some of whom I had been attracted to once but for various reasons nothing happened) and I've never had those kinds of thoughts about them, nor would I. I guess so long as it remains with two-dimensional or fictional women who only exist on an animation cell, a piece of art or the imagination from text, it is okay. A part of that could be the isolated nature of the fetish, at least in terms of real physical interaction. Online chat or forum posting is still at a distance. It's always just kind of been me, in my little world. It's only more recently that I started reaching out into a "community."

In general terms, I "consistently imagine" a woman I have a "first experience" with as having an equal or higher libido than me because otherwise, nothing much would happen. If a woman was shy and not into sex but we'd dated and I grew attached to her, I wouldn't be the one who pushes things. That's also how some people get into mismatches. Her horniness has to counteract my own nervousness and anxiety. There's very little that could be said or done to encourage me in the moment itself. A woman could tear off her clothes, fall onto her bed and scream, "**** me already!" and my follow up question would be, "Are you sure?" But if she threw the kink into it? It'd be even worse; I would feel more exposed and vulnerable (which I know is absurd, since I want to be the one doing the tying).

And that has always been the rub. I have never met a woman who was so into me that anything progressed beyond a first date, or being an associate. I will concede I really haven't explored the fetish community in real life, but I think I am too hesitant and tame for them. Those are the folks who wear leather fetish gear for their morning run to Starbucks and there's no way I am comfortable with that. It's like trying to join the X-Men with a completely useless power like "talks to worms."

I suppose a lover who "falls between the two" is what everyone wants, right? Someone who is good and kind and patient, but not dull or lethargic, who is fun without being bonkers and in the same sexual synch. And if it were easy, there wouldn't be so much fiction, so many songs, nor as many dating gurus.

EDIT: So DNL responded to a letter about kinks, with the admission that there is a high probability it was fake or a troll. I know he usually doesn't mind responding to those if it justifies a point he wants to make on a particular day, but I really do wonder how useful it is to basically reward spammers. Doesn't he get enough legit emails? Because the kink the letter mentions is on the extreme side and it doesn't really help much since all it does is provoke extreme reactions.

https://www.doctornerdlove.com/what-do-i-do-after-an-awkward-hook-up/

Also, the examples most folks bring up of a "mostly benign" fetish is...foot fetishes. It's like I said at the top; that one is almost universally accepted, likely in no small part because a famous film director admitted to it. DNL also brings up "mummification" as one more on the extreme side, and I guess it is, but it is also EXTREMELY common on DA. It isn't really my kink but since there is an overlap between it and softcore bondage I have done some roleplays revolving around it (with 1-2 pretty cool people I might add; they weren't squicky about it). The text roleplays have allowed me an avenue to explore certain things, primarily the concept of "what kinks does someone else have that I may be flexible for" versus "this is a hard no." Like for me, stuff that feels "too rapey" is a hard no (i.e. non consensual fondling, which is also very common on DA and in heaps of bondage video porn, which is why I rarely watch any).

And that is one of the things that is tough to explain (although really, no one should ever have to explain a "hard no"). Like, why is a bondage scenario involving the potential threat of a buzz saw fine but "forced orgasm" (another modestly common kink on DA that is a hard no for me) isn't, and it is tough to ground down, "because the former is classic peril and no actual harm will come to the woman" and the other is more realistic and rapey.

I suppose I may as well concede that I have done a few text roleplays with other folks whose "characters" consented which is a different scenario than a "damsel in distress" thing and in those scenarios (the "sub" is a willing and eager participant), I don't have a problem roleplaying some more "mature" elements of sex. It's the "non-consensual" stuff which is a hard no. Even though it's all fake and the role playing partner is, of course, always consenting. I just don't want to write rapey or "slave master" characters.

[inbloomer]

The text roleplays have allowed me an avenue to explore certain things, primarily the concept of "what kinks does someone else have that I may be flexible for" versus "this is a hard no." Like for me, stuff that feels "too rapey" is a hard no (i.e. non consensual fondling, which is also very common on DA and in heaps of bondage video porn, which is why I rarely watch any).

And that is one of the things that is tough to explain (although really, no one should ever have to explain a "hard no"). Like, why is a bondage scenario involving the potential threat of a buzz saw fine but "forced orgasm" (another modestly common kink on DA that is a hard no for me) isn't, and it is tough to ground down, "because the former is classic peril and no actual harm will come to the woman" and the other is more realistic and rapey.

I'm more the opposite though. Non-consensual fondling and forced orgasm are not particularly what I like but do fall on the fringe. For example, a significant aspect of my fetishes/fantasies is machines (with human operators, not full robots). Mostly that's a straight spanking machine, but you could argue a 'groping machine' achieves the same result - of temporarily discomforting and embarrassing the rider - in a different way.

On the other hand, any device that is going to do lethal or irreversible damage - even if the victim always escapes it - I find massively squicky. (For my machines to feel right in fantasy, they have to have lots of safety features built in.) I don't even like spanking implements that are capable of doing significant damage, like heavy wooden hairbrushes or paddles.

It's a complicated area, basically!

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