Re: Some discussion of kink

[Datelessman]

Describing kinks and limits can certainly get complicated fast. And it's always quite subjective.

So you would not be keen for a "classic peril" story if it involved too gruesome a machine even if as part of the genre you knew it'd never touch the heroine. In my defence, though it isn't needed, not all of my stories feature a "death-trap" or such blunt peril. Some include the heroine being captured for sure and being transported (and usually escaping en route or shortly after). And I've written a few stories with peril that did not include a machine per say. I only mentioned the "buzz saw" since "heroine tied to a log" is one of those "classic" kind of serial perils (behind "tied to the railroad tracks" of course). A lot of writers and artists on DA basically use the same peril (i.e. their favorite) endlessly and I try not to do that. I try to be as original as possible with every story. That sometimes gets tricky because then I have to figure out how she escapes (other than, "Oh, she had a secret tool somewhere that was never mentioned before" because that is lazy), which is admittedly part of the fun of writing it.

One thing I am not into, which pops up all the time in the "softcore bondage damsel" genre is the heroine being knocked out (either with a blow, or gas, or a chloroform rag which are all their own fetishes, trust me). I hadn't realized I wasn't into that aspect until I actually started writing stories in 2021 (i.e. seriously exploring the fetish versus denying that I had it even as I "researched" it online). Usually when I write a story, the heroine usually surrenders temporarily due to circumstance or if she is zapped with some kind of gas or whatnot  it only conveniently "weaken" her until it is time to escape. I am not into blows or actual harm at all, though usually the heroine will thrash minions or the villain(s) when she escapes.

As for your machine fetish, well, you're not alone. The pilot episode to the first LUPIN THE THIRD TV cartoon in 1971 features Fujiko Mine strapped to a machine and endlessly tickled with mechanical hands. They did an anniversary special, I forget when, in which they made sure to replicate that scene only to be more fan-servicey and longer. Imagine getting a whole Japanese animation studio to animate fetish fuel! It's not a spanking machine, though, although I can envision a few folks on Deviantart being into that.

One thing I learned for sure once I started interacting more directly online was that some fetishes overlap and nearly everything can be someone's fetish. And it can be tough to discuss without feeling creepy or fearing creeping someone else out, even from a distance. I honestly can't imagine a conversation about this kind of stuff even with some of my oldest friends. The virginity is tough enough, but if I mentioned this stuff, I'm afraid one of them would want to get me put on a watchlist.

I mean, I'm an older virgin, who is into seeing women tied up, who lives with his mother. I am only one or two more checks away from the "standard villain in LAW & ORDER: SVU" character profile. I am gradually coming to terms with admitting that this part of me exists and doesn't have to dictate behavior (i.e. I am not a predator with a kit), but it still is tough to ever imagine introducing another person to this stuff. Nor do I feel that's ever really necessary. Not every fantasy has to be lived or discussed or inserted into a relationship. Women have tons of fantasies, and very few of them expect their husbands/boyfriends to romance them on a pirate ship or dress like a fireman, or Batman, or a vampire, or whatever.

Though I wonder how much of this stuff comes up in cosplay circles.

[inbloomer]

Yes, that's how my mind works with it. Peril of falling into a vat of itching powder? Sure. Peril of falling naked onto the stage of a life drawing class, where there are lots of people she knows? Yep, cute. Peril of falling into a pit of spikes? Just no.

That's certainly not to suggest my fantasies are "better" or worse than yours. Just noting that even within a single fetish, there can be a very complex range of types and views within that community.

A common but very unhelpful assumption about kink is that it means the person is up for trying anything and everything, when actually it kind of means the opposite - there's a specific, restricted set of things this person is turned on by, which they might vary enough to avoid boredom but basically keep circling back to.

[Datelessman]

Just for fun, and because I sometimes like examining my own work from a distance at points, I actually tabulated how many of my Deviantart bondage fetish stories actually have "perils" in them beyond simply the heroine being captured/tied up a while. I usually include them in stories because they were an element of the "damsel in distress" stuff which was at least how the fetish got started in my head from watching 1980s cartoons and stuff (at least as far as I can approximate). For myself and most people "into this," it is usually taken for granted that the heroine will escape.

Stories where she doesn't, within the community, are called "bad endings." There are people into that, but I obviously am not. In fairness, I haven't come across too many who are. Now mummification/vore/furries? Legion.

I actually found I only used perils as an element in my stories (i.e. putting some kind of deadline on the heroine's escape or on rare occasions, rescue) approximately one third of the time. Now, objectively, that is a lot, but I was surprised that in two-thirds of them there is no peril beyond the bondage. I don't sit down and make flow charts and pre-plan this stuff, I just write the stories as time and urges allow. They usually are in stories which focus on costumed super-heroines or franchises where such a scenario is common. I've written stories based on other franchises where such things are not common (i.e. some anime or a sitcom) and they aren't in there. I often try to match the tone of the work I am doing and sometimes I am in the mood for a straightforward adventure or a comedy, or a romance, or a consensual story.

I probably have almost as much of a fetish for meticulous geek research as I do for the bondage. I will 100% research an obscure villain or life event for a particular character to use in a story or a roleplay. My wall of the texts in the Entertainment Joys section are not one-offs.

And yes, part of the reason why a pre-roleplay "brainstorm" session is always key is specifically so everyone can synch up what they want or are game for versus any hard nos. Some folks list that stuff in their profiles or prompts, but that can change so it is always good to ask. Folks who just roll in cold are either inexperienced, or abrasive.

[inbloomer]

My whole taste with fiction tends to be at the gentle end - I find enough things in the real world cause me anxiety and upset, I prefer fiction to be more of a comforting space. Sure, there can be jeopardy and threat, but I definitely don't like anything gruesome, and particularly don't like mood whiplash, where something suddenly turns nasty or tragic with no warning.

Realistically, I think it's unlikely to find a partner who exactly shares one's narrow, specific fetish. With the machines thing, in decades of looking I've found just one guy online who shares it closely; we've corresponded on and off over the years. However, I think it does matter finding a partner who at least gets it that human sexuality is very diverse, and that a person having some offbeat fantasies as a regular part of theirs does not make them a bad or damaged person in real life.

What I think would be a recipe for disaster would be a partner who sees sex as very much a "set menu", i.e. "right, you get a few minutes grunting in missionary every couple of weeks, plus a blowjob on your birthday, and I expect you to have no sexual thoughts or desires beyond that whatsoever. Except, possibly, we try to spice things up in the bedroom many years from now, as a last resort before divorce."

In seeing my friends' and peers' relationships over the years, I've just had a slight sense that that's what's going on - but with limited direct evidence. I agree though that someone at the other extreme, who's happy to pop down to the shops with buzzing vibrators in every crevice, wouldn't be right either.

[Datelessman]

Just to be clear, I don't write brooding Frank Miller kind of stuff. Even the more "straightforward" stories always have some comedy to it, often in some of the dialogue, so it isn't far removed from the average comic book or animated/live action TV episode (just with the bondage sequence heavily embellished). And sometimes I do write comedies or semi-comedies.

Ever since I started exploring this stuff online in the mid 90s, I've found many people who shared my fetish in general. Just as I said, many of the differences are in the details, such as other folks liking "non-con touching" or that kind of stuff, or more strict stuff, or more actual pain or discomfort for "subs" and all that. So to an outsider my stuff might seem "strict" but compared to them it's like "light to moderate" bondage (especially with no nudes in the stories). All of that is online with another alias, of course. I have never actually met someone in "real life" or "meat-space" who was into this stuff. Or at least never spoke to one.

As I said elsewhere, one of my male friends was into this kind of stuff from the "dom" side, to the point that he used to carry around a ball-gag in his backpack during high school and the start of college. I am still friends with one of his exes and I know for a fact that they engaged in some "bondage play" (since in the past he claimed they did and she never denied it). But he was kind of controlling and arrogant as a boyfriend and his ex isn't too fond of her past with him, so neither is really the sort of person I am comfortable trying to talk about this kind of thing with either of them. Throw in the fact that women are used to becoming unwilling therapists to a lot of dudes they know so I am wary of dropping info on people.

As I have said, this side of my life has very much been something I have hidden from people longer than anything else, even my virginity. I only started really getting anxious about the virginity by the time I was 19-25. I knew I liked "something" about bondage by the time I was 10-11. So the shame of it began when I was still very formative. Not that someone who is a young adult isn't, but as a kid it was different.

Trying to find someone whose libido is in synch with one's own is a challenge even for non-kinky people. Even the definition of kink can vary, I guess. Everyone has some kind of sexual fantasy. What separates that from being a fetish or kink could be very subjective, or how much time is spent focused on it. Folks whose libidos are not well coordinated don't just bluntly state terms as you stated, even if it can feel that way.

I am certainly willing to be patient with someone. So many dudes just have "zero chill" and almost demand to go from casual chat to sex in as few dates as possible. And while that can happen, without relying on alcohol or sneak PUA tricks, I doubt it happens as often as some folks brag or believe (at least not anymore, or with folks older than 25). On the other hand of course I wouldn't want to wait forever and while I am not ravenous, I would ideally prefer to sleep with a significant other several times a week (or once a week if we can only see each other on that schedule). If that was non negotiable on a permanent basis, yes, that would be a problem. But it also depends on how dates go, too. Back in the old days guys used to refer to certain things as "bases" in part because it was standard for things to escalate. If someone insists on more dates but doesn't even want to hold hands, yes, that can be a drastic contrast. But if there's some kissing or cuddling or so on, then it's usually just a matter of waiting until everyone is comfortable.

Most of my friends are coupled up now with spouses or, at least, fiances. I have no idea how wild, boring, or satisfying their sex lives are. The only pals at BBQ's who brag about that stuff are usually the so-called "players" who sleep around (rarely more than once or twice with someone). I wouldn't feel comfortable asking.

I suppose it really would come down to either eventually revealing this side of myself to a long term partner, or trying to quit it cold turkey, or try to hide it. The latter DNL would usually term as a "ticking time bomb" since a partner who is ignorant about certain things might fairly be surprised if they happened upon, say, a shared computer and found bondage stuff on it. I've usually never thought too seriously about this stuff since I assumed it was a long term problem and I hadn't resolved the short term problems (i.e. getting dates, being at all charismatic, getting laid, etc.). Even my endless fretting about virginity or inexperience is more of a short term issue in comparison since, again, I am not so obsessive that I envision anyone I date in that kind of scenario. Considering my own shyness and awkwardness about it, I imagine if I ever was to share this side of myself with a long term partner, it would be with someone who was either on the lighter side of that stuff herself or at least curious enough to encourage me but not so aggressive about it that she got frustrated with "baby's first dom session" which it would likely devolve to. And of course, like with anything, being flexible and willing to engage in the tastes of my partner (within reason) too. It isn't a one way street.

[inbloomer]

Just to remind you of what the podcast I mentioned at the start of this thread was saying:

A kink is an interest, but it's something you can do without. A fetish is that much more core to your identity: sure, you can do without it for a short period, but long-term, trying to repress it is going to cause problems.

For me, and it sounds like this is less the case for you, there's the additional dimension that I'm very touch-sensitive, easily squeamish, and standard, vanilla porn doesn't really do anything for me at all. I do think it would be possible for me to have totally vanilla sex with someone and it work really well, but the overall experience might need some slight modifications, rather than just following the standard set menu.

My thinking is that by creating a clearer plan for the long-term issues, that might help sort the short-term issues. Rather than just meeting some new people and being friendly and hoping, which in my case has led to a lot of time wasted on the wrong people.

[Datelessman]

That's the thing; I honestly don't know how long I could do without the fetish. I am not going to go into graphic detail about self love but I do go on Deviantart daily looking at images and/or doing text roleplays. And before that I was going on various forums and websites which offered images (such as art, screen-shots from TV and film or scans of scenes from comics) also on a daily or at worst an every-other-day basis. Even before the Internet was readily accessible for me (which was the mid to late 90s, when I was a teenager in high school), I would have certain comics at the ready in a "hiding spot" in my room that had scenes or even a "master-tape" (my term for it) of scenes recorded off TV onto a VHS.

It turned out the sort of encyclopedic geek memory which was useful for general nerd hobbies like comics, anime, and so on was also helpful in regards to this. I.E. keeping track of what episodes of a show I liked had "those scenes" or which comics did. Sometimes I would dig into the "two for a dollar" bin at local comic shops hunting for them as a pre-teen. There was a lot more legwork into it in the pre-Internet days. I used to literally rent videos from shops of movies that had some of those scenes in them and fast forward as a pre-teen or teenager.

These Zoomer kinksters, man, they just don't know what we had to go through. Back in my day sonny we didn't have no Internet to find them bondage wimmens. We had to dig through the quarter bin at a comic shop or troll TV Guide schedules like God intended.

It has been a part of my routine so much that it is like muscle memory. That is part of why I am suddenly speaking so freely about some of this stuff now that I've decided to stop bottling it, at least somewhere.

I honestly don't know if I could knock it off or quit it cold turkey. I don't know if having regular sex or even romantic interactions with a woman or many women on a regular basis would make it easier or harder. I don't know if I had "normal" sex with someone (which I want to) if the urges to want to explore the fetish with her would diminish, increase, or remain the same. I cannot tell. I don't know. Not knowing is a little nerve wracking and does add to some anxiety and probably some of the self-shame. Like I spent all this time worrying about being a fumbling virgin when I should have worried about being a closeted fetishist. Innocent virgins can be leads in comedies or superheroes; kinky ones are villains in suspense thrillers or police shows.

I am definitely someone who would want to do a lot of touching. I am not used to being touched myself (on top of being ticklish, yes, a man who is ticklish is not very macho) which is also one of those "warning lights" I imagine a woman might have before long. For the moment I don't think I would need the fetish to be able to engage in sex. But whether regular non-kink sex would eliminate my taste for it or allow me to tone it down or not need it...I don't know. Ultimately it is a fantasy, and those are common in most folks even if the degree of interaction is different.

The stage where I am at is that I am now, finally, belatedly, making a baby step towards identifying that I have this fetish, and it is a part of me as a hobby, at the last. It is part of my identity. I was afraid of this for literal decades because of a lot of shame and judgement from others or society or whatnot. I would be afraid to even mention it to a therapist because I would be afraid of encountering a situation similar to one interaction between Nellie Bertram and Dwight Schrute from THE OFFICE from an episode when they try to train him on how to sell to women:

"I have three questions. One, have you ever killed a woman? Two, how many women have you killed? And three, please don't kill me."

At the very least it is hard to not come off like a pervert when mentioning this kind of stuff to others sometimes, especially if they're not into that kind of stuff or see anything non-vanilla as threatening (which is very common even today, and is common in therapy circles).

Like, even the women who might be very much into a "dom" want one who isn't "adorkable." That isn't a thing, is it? "Adorkable" and "dominant" do not mesh. "I want to be restrained by someone shy and anxious," said no kinky woman ever.

It seems like you are suggesting that the overlap between "a woman open minded enough to be okay with how cripplingly inexperienced I am" and "a woman who is either moderately kinky or at least curious and willing to explore a fetish" could be an ideal sort of partner, at least as a goal to aim for. And I don't disagree. I simply feel that would diminish my dating pool even smaller than it already is, and needlessly eliminate a lot of partners who might be quite compatible in most other areas. Relationships are about compromise; no one ever gets 100% of what they want unless it is abusive. I have heaps of baggage; my only advantage is that it isn't the standard baggage (which is hatred of women, angry exes, a prison record, and/or kids floating around). I secretly hope for finding a woman who says, "So you're just a virgin who has a secret thing for bondage? Thank god. I thought you had bad credit."

At my age I shouldn't be trying to date women under 30. There are many advantages to that, actually, but a disadvantage is women, on average, have less patience for dithering or hesitation at that age, or dealing with many flaws in strangers. In that cohort, most women would rather be alone or with their pals (or cats) than date a problematic dude, and I don't blame them because problematic dudes range between "trash" and "dangerous." The gift and curse of dating in a cohort that knows what it wants is that it means they'll know whether they don't want me very quickly (especially in a fast paced place like New York where tourists stand out because they walk slowly). Kinky women over 30 in NY will already expect a guy to be way more confident and have his own dungeon and all of his knots down if they're on the submissive side. And many of the non-kinky ones are on the side of Noping out the second I mention any part of my life which doesn't fit neatly into a category (or I fail to be charismatic in the first few minutes, to compensate for my very average looks). My sense of humor buys me time, but that often just means I become a comedian, not a lover.

[inbloomer]

Being mindful about where you bring it up, absolutely. For example, I'm very much not a foot fetishist, generally finding feet the least attractive part of anyone's body. But any Instagram post that shows a woman's feet even slightly then attracts creepy comments from fetishists, which I could do without.

You have made progress in being more open about yours, in the right way. I do think the next step for you is to drop all the references to being identified with serial killers and cop show villains. Maybe the intent is self-deprecating, but it's actually a lot more off-putting than the fetish itself, and I suspect any prospective date would find the same.

[Datelessman]

I definitely hear you about the time and place. And while I'm not on "the Gram" as some folks call it, I can certainly attest to seeing people be a bit less tactful with their fetishes. No, I don't leer at any kind of photo on social media which even alludes to this kind of stuff. Sometimes bondage memes will pop up on Facebook and if anything I avoid commenting on them deliberately. I can't slip up if I am never there to slip, can I? Hiding it no matter the circumstance has become second nature.

Those references are self-depreciating, admittedly, and I would never compare myself to serial killers or villains to any prospective date or partner. Another reason is that there really are no positive examples of male bondage aficionados who are not submissives anywhere. Even the lead in the "50 Shades" series is pretty toxic, socially controlling, and borderline abusive, from what I heard anyway. There is nothing positive to compare it to within my head. Even Batman, who tons of women attach fetishes too, uses handcuffs in the context of law and order, not any kind of mutual pleasure (sure, Catwoman makes jokes about it sometimes but Batman is always Mr. Cop about it).

Even when I am trying to dig out of my own internal senses of shame, I can't think, "No, just because I am a virgin who has never dated and lives with my mother and is into women being tied up doesn't mean I am somehow on a bad trajectory. I'm just like...like...well...um, line? Anyone? Bueller?"

The counter to that is, "You're unique and individual," and that's both awesome and terrifying. There can be few things scarier than feeling like a stranger on your own planet. It is as if some scientist put me together wrong and while I look like a normal dude, I can't project it enough to enjoy all of the comforts.

I agree that I am making progress with this, which is the last big "elephant" in my closet. But I am still far off from trying to introduce live people to it. I don't think it is necessary or is an immediate problem but I truly do not know. I haven't experienced many things: not even the euphoria of mutual attraction. I don't even know how much that may effect me. It is a bit to sort out.

[Datelessman]

I figured I'd add a comment since something came up which I am unsure is "worthy" of a blog post but I still want to type about it.

Something which has become second nature to me, since this fetish of mind started to "bubble up" without me realizing it along with my general sexual development, is obfuscation. Hiding it away in some imaginary box from others and never even hinting about it is something I have done before I was officially in puberty, much less a teen or an adult (or cared about virginity). The positive part of this is that it's forced me to be aware of privacy and that others are entitled to it as much, if not more, than me. I was never the one nosing around someone's office or wanting to see what they were texting about, or any of that. As insecure as I am, I also wouldn't be obsessing over how many other dudes someone I was dating knew or interacted with socially. It also has taught me not to pry too much until someone is ready.

I do try to learn something from the hardships, inconveniences, and pain I've had in my life, as corny as that sounds.

But sometimes things just pop up. I read comic books both as a hobby and semi-professionally for online reviews. An issue from a particular writer whose work I am fond of shipped this week and it seems with each new chapter or arc of something, this writer appears to be what we in the bondage/damsel-in-distress community call, "one of us."

Now, comic books occasionally allowing writers and/or artists to express some degree of kinkiness is nothing new. William Moulton Marston and Wonder Woman is the biggest example but there are many others. Part of what made Chris Claremont's run on X-Men so engaging from the mid-1970s until 1991 were him broaching on some of these things. And the late, great, George Perez wasn't too shy about sharing a similar fetish, to the point of being a "guest of honor" at a few fetish cons and not being shy about "tasteful" bondage commissions. I've never commissioned art in my life, but most professionals take them, but also don't do "smut" for various reasons. The superhero comic book medium has always been full of those kind of peril tropes and it's kind of a mystery whether it just attracts some folks into it, or if such a thing "arises" out of them after writing or drawing their 100th peril trap, or something.

Believe it or not, such scenes in comic books have gotten less common over the years for a variety of reasons. Many times when they happen, it is for a work which is deliberately set in a pulp or period style where such things are "expected," or part of a horror story. And many writers can go about their career having some of those scenes come up and the impression is never anything beyond professional plotting.

But this writer seems to have such stuff pop up in almost literally every story they do, even one shots on occasion. But it isn't just the scenes, it's some of the character commentary around them or about them which is, perhaps, kink-positive. I know Fox News and right-wing online trolls like to rage at "woke comics" anytime a non-white or LGBTQ+ character appears or does anything, but the medium is still more conservative than it lets on. Wedding issues, for instance, are still big deals. But it's the frequency and consistency of it which is making me wonder. Being one of "the community," it sometimes makes it easier to spot if and when a creator seems to be into it.

This isn't a bad thing. Nor am I saying I reach much of an audience. To be honest, my light bondage fan-fiction on Deviantart likely reaches more viewers, and if I monetized it, I'd likely bring in double or triple what I make on the comic review writing (albeit with more pressure and expectations, so I don't). But some folks do read my reviews including some industry pros on my FB feed, which includes this writer (who, in fairness, has mostly left FB). I am mentally drafting a review for sometime this week or next and I have to consider extra steps. Do I ignore the scene? Then it's not accurate! Do I mention it in passing? Obviously I do no want to "out" anyone about anything, or spread a rumor that could be wrong (though I doubt it). If I mention it at all do I risk being "he who doth protests too much" if someone wonders, "Geez, why did he spent 2 sentences on that?"

Sometimes it can feel like stumbling onto someone's alter ego. Now what? Obviously I am not a jerk looking to expose people (while hypocritically denying my own secrets). But that means a little extra care about a review featuring folks dressed oddly who usually hit each other. This is no crisis or anything, but just something which gave me pause as I come to grips with honestly admitting to myself that I am into this stuff, that I am not sleepwalking or become Mr. Hyde or anything like that. That it is a part of me. Just a part I have hidden for a great deal of my life and denied to myself.

EDIT: I wrote the article and barely mentioned the scene in question. Again, my audience is small but it still made me think.

[inbloomer]

Sorry for very slow reply, I've been quite busy with different things.

I think there's a Baader-Meinhof effect, whereby once you start looking for evidence of people having fetishes, you suddenly notice things you hadn't before. My rule of thumb is that if someone makes a one-off reference to a potentially kinky topic, that may mean nothing. But if they want to discuss it in lots of detail, or keep circling back to it, they probably have a sexual motivation.

By default I think it's best to ignore and not draw attention to it, unless there's a particular need to or benefit from doing so.

[Datelessman]

I have tried to not "think like a hammer and see everything as nails" in general, though I am sure a few folks might "side eye" that considering my unhealthy habit of making assumptions about "collective women" in other topics.

But, yeah, I decided not to call attention to it or go on about it when I reviewed the comic. Which is good, because another issue came out and it happened again. I am fairly certain by now it is not just me "searching" for stuff. It would be harder finding a comic that ran beyond a few issues done by this creator that DIDN'T have a bondage scene somewhere. Even for comics writers, it's a lot.

Perhaps some of it could be marketing. Adam Warren claimed many years ago that any comic he wrote and/or drew which had a bondage scene in it sold better, so in part for purely financial and career reasons he launched EMPOWERED at Dark Horse, which is mostly fetish fuel for "those fans." It's been quite successful, and he's been releasing material for it since 2007. Now, does Warren himself have a fetish for that stuff? I don't know, but he got his start drawing DIRTY PAIR comics, and they're kinky old school anime heroines. But who knows. He certainly wasn't wrong that fans ate it up.

And lord knows the comic industry still does the "bondage fake-out cover," i.e. the cover may have some scene of peril but the comic itself doesn't. Covers are supposed to draw attention and that gimmick still works. The problem is when it goes too far into softcore territory, which still happens. There was a HEROES FOR HIRE cover some years ago which got Marvel in some hot water for a brief moment (before the SPIDER-WOMAN pose thing).

I suppose some people (not you) might go, "why are you covering for someone or erring on what could be an interesting point?" and my reply would be, because I am a human who understands and tries not to be a hypocrite. If I am afraid of people "unmasking" me as a kinky virgin but I go around lobbing accusations about others, then I'd be trash. I try not to be trash. If/when this creator reveals anything openly, like George Perez and Marston, and others did, that's another thing. But until then, hey, superhero comics just have that kind of stuff. I've come to see my fetish as something to hide from most people, but also something of a fraternity or sorority in that if you happen to meet a fellow traveller, you do what you can for them or at least don't deliberately cause them problems.

While 99.5% of the reaction to me "revealing" my fetish at my blog or here, albeit under my alias, has been positive, there was a 0.5% negative that happened on the blog. Namely, a MRA-leaning poster hopped onto the comments and while I don't want to say tried to "recruit" me, but definitely steered the conversion into those talking points before long. My blog is pretty small; postings average 100-500 views and there are only a handful of folks who comment "regularly" (i.e. more than once or twice in 9 years). The one time something like this happened before was when I made an anti-Gamergate post (back when that was happening, like around 2015) and got a "no, actually" reply from a dude. This time it was a more prolonged comment conversation. I wasn't dismayed or anything and in truth from the guy's username I thought it would go there soon. But I try not to shoot people down just because they don't synch with me 100%; it was only when he started getting deeper into MRA red pill nonsense (including the disgusting "women make fake rape claims" garbage) that I went into it and shot him down with facts, and he stopped.

Still, though, it did make me think. I'd been blogging about being a lonely, older male virgin for ages and no one from the Red Pill Empire bothered me. But the minute I talked about a bondage fetish and someone felt they had an "in." Maybe they thought, "someone who likes seeing women tied up doesn't respect them or thinks little of them," and that's not true at all (to the point that I've partially kink-shamed myself for decades until recently). I think it shows not only that there are a lot of wayward, hurting, troubled men who are looking for fellowship, but that many of them found it in wrong or unhelpful places. I try to be helpful but I do not tolerate intolerance. It was one of the reasons why I had been coy with it even on my own blog; I didn't want anyone thinking, "oh, he's just a creep in the end like half the virgins on 4chan." But that hasn't happened so I am grateful for it.

[inbloomer]

It's going off-topic but in terms of that correspondent's rant, I think the fear has just a grain of truth to it, but absolutely not to the extent MRAs make out.

Although extremely hard to quantify, my understanding from multiple sources is that women do share information about men they've had dealings with (through word of mouth, Whatsapp groups, private social media groups) more than happens the other way round, and especially to warn each other off guys who are dodgy. The argument in favour is that lots of women have had experience of guys doing things in dark corners or behind closed doors that they would never do in public. However, the obvious concerns are that it's one side of a story, with the guy getting no right of reply, and even if the story is fully accurate, at what point does it become more moral to drop it and let the guy have a fresh start?

So, I think a social anxiety fear that one mistake could end up doing you long-term harm isn't totally ludicrous (and I felt DNL was always too glib about batting it away). But that's a world away from saying there are epidemics of false rape claims.

[Datelessman]

Since you technically began the thread, if anyone has "authority" to shift the topic slightly, besides a mod, it'd be you. But I don't think it's that detached. Part of the discussion of "kink" is concern over what knowledge of it can do to one's reputation. I know I buried it for years online, even under my alias, out of a fear it would cast me as unsympathetic. Not that I am eternally looking for sympathy or pity, but in my head there was a difference between, "this fellow just hasn't met the right person and had enough confidence" versus "well, he's a virgin because he likes seeing women tied up." Thankfully that's not happened. It turns out I was far more judgemental and cruel with myself than any other person has been (especially women). There's a lesson in that, but I haven't learned it.

That said, I always hesitate to make grains of truth into rocks or boulders.

People talk (or gossip) about lovers or exes all the time and that's been true since forever. I am sure that was happening during our hunter/gatherer days. It may not even be a human thing, but our ability to crack the "languages" of animals is limited. And part of that is to try to steer friends and associates away from bad actors.

The difference between how modern women do it, and modern men, that you see, I believe, is due to context.

The fact of the matter is that women haven been preyed on by men disproportionately since recorded history began. Many societies had very organized methods with which troublesome women were "done away with," from witch trials in the past to stoning in some Middle Eastern countries to "medical care/abortion bans" over the last few years here. Many people theorize that "witches" existed in large part so women could share knowledge and facts with each other that men would have destroyed or taken. A woman ultimately has more proportionate risk in encounters with men than vice versa. Most crimes are committed by men. Most bosses are men. Most government officials (state, local, federal) are men. Most police are men. Even in areas where women are in charge, they're following rules, codes, and procedures put there by men. So a lot of times this "sharing of knowledge" is done for a very reasonable defensive measure; root out abusers. Virtually every woman I have ever known either had a man rape or molest them, or had one try and fail for various reasons. And this includes not only friends or associates, but relatives. A few years ago the U.N. once declared "home" as the most dangerous place worldwide for women, since so many are hurt/attacked/killed by a male spouse, lover, or relative.

Are there some jumping of conclusions? Exaggerations bourn out of frustration or emotion? Venting sessions? Absolutely. Women are entitled to fun, or wanting to avoid boredom, or frustration, or bland lovers. Just when they do it, it's the downfall of humanity (or "edgy"), and when men do it, it's a standard scene in a sitcom on CBS.

Men do this, but in a different way due to context. And the key context is men have less to fear. Yes, there are women who hurt/abuse/kill men, but they're in a drastic minority. Men don't live in a world where picking the wrong woman might get them killed, or hurt, or dominated. So when they "compare notes" about women, it is usually less specific. Usually it's vague stuff like, "she's crazy" or "she's hot." In the old days men used to post phone numbers in bathroom walls and stalls for a "good time." Should men try to collectively warn each other from bad actresses? Yes, but they don't for the same reason men almost never talk about abuse; macho BS. I've witnesses tons of conversations with peers where one said, "my ex is crazy," and other said, "I like the crazy ones" or "How? She's so pretty" and so on. And most of the time the notes are on how "easy" or "prude" she is or "Madonna/whore" baloney.

And I am sorry, I simply do not believe, nor have experienced, a woman or vast groups of women trying to "ruin" a man's reputation for reasons which are as inflated as online dudes believe. It takes a lot of effort, passion, and fury to do that and most "bad dates" are really just awkward with no chemistry. Even the most ardent man-hater might struggle to make time to destroy a man who took no for an answer, simply lacked chemistry, respected boundaries and was just boring. I am not saying there aren't zero women who would do those kinds of things; I just think their numbers are so low as to be irrelevant.

You also have to understand that A TON of the men who talk about "wanting a second chance" or "never got to tell their side," frankly, have shady things in their pasts -- especially in the post MeToo era. Things that used to be considered "fair play" or "boys being boys" or "wild oats sewn" even 10 years ago are socially rejected now. Certain actions shouldn't warrant a second chance. There are generations of men, up to and including Millennials or some Gen Zers/Zoomers, who only "got laid" because they relied on intoxicated women, or badgered/guilted/manipulated one into bed, or so on. Times and social trends change, but pain doesn't. I'm not saying "every man is a jerk," but I am saying some of the loudest voices in the "that witch ruined me" chorus usually have a lot of self interest in resolving a public image. After all, what happens between a couple behind closed doors can differ drastically from what the public sees, and can defy expectations. I.E. many so called "liberal" men can still expect a woman to do all the housework, stifle her emotional needs, and provide sex on tap. And that many predators can be handsome and/or charming.

The genuinely few times a perfectly "innocent" man had his reputation destroyed by a woman deliberately and maliciously for no reason beyond evil? It tends to become a book, a film, or an episode of 20/20 or 48 Hours, because it is that damn rare. Far more common it is the woman who has her reputation ruined because too many men brand her "a slut" or the emotional turmoil of being assaulted or a bad relationship (or dozens of bad relationships) has shattered her.

I have witnessed, heard, read, watched a metric TON of awful male actions or attitudes towards women, even women they profess to care for. And rather than blame women for "always dating jerks," I blame "the jerks" for being jerks. It's toxic men who ruin the pool for everyone, at least in my eyes. They're the ones who rig the game in their favor, use women like toys, get everyone jaded. And rather than "learn their techniques," I'd rather they stop or go away. I never wanted to be a PUA. I always wanted to be "cool" or "attractive," sure, but not for being a proud bully. Those kinds of men and boys were the ones who bullied me when I was younger, and I never made excuses for them. I was bullied by girls at times when I was younger, but never in the same proportion or way.

Do I have some social anxiety or fear of being misunderstood by women I try to date? Absolutely. But I don't blame them for it. I blame the men who make that defensiveness necessary. A woman puts her life in her hands anytime she goes on a date, or sometimes even shares a casual word with a dude somewhere. Guys just don't face that kind of peril, at least not in proportion.

I see myself as kind of like a milk snake. Milk snakes mimic the coloration of the venomous coral snake, but are harmless. An expert can tell the difference, but most can't. And like a milk snake, I can't choose my scales; I was created this way. Certain things were there since I was born, like being an introvert. Other things were shaped by experiences or society and they're not changing now, because they're a part of me. That includes, as I am recently accepting, my fetish. And part of reading a room is being aware of context and why it is there.

Maybe a purist laments the idea that if I made an online dating profile and candidly admitted I was a 41 year old virgin with a fascination seeing or writing about women tied up, that I'd automatically be misunderstood as some dangerous predator or freak by most people. But I, in the real world, know the context of predatory men and how some of the most dangerous are good at seeming normal, so someone who doesn't even try can seem worse. And I don't blame women for that or treat it as some alien thing that they'd be wary of that or warn each other of it. I understand. Boy, do I understand. I've had to share a bathroom stall with some of those creeps women "gossip" about.

I have personally witnessed many women in my life, or those outside of it, continue to date or even find joy after some horrendous experiences with their ex-boyfriends or husbands. That even after a half dozen or dozens of terrible men, they go out into life not seeing the worst in every one. On the other hand, I have seen many men in my life, including some friends or associates, turn one unflattering experience with one woman into their spiritual decree about the truth between the sexes which is inflexible and they carry with them eternally. To a degree I do that too, only I turn it inward. I don't hate women because a small handful ignored or rejected me in my life; I hate myself for not appealing to them better, or society for skewing the terms which I have to rise to.

Admittedly, part of this is that I have never been seen as "creepy" by actual women in real life; just romantically unappealing. Some men may have genuinely been seen as off-putting innocently and that is a different experience. Though, again, we're all imperfect narrators of our own lives and even some folks who had experiences like that maybe missed the reason as to why. For instance, in my own life it took many years of distance and some blogging to realize that some of my failures were just because I unintentionally gave mixed signals (i.e. my disbelief became seen as disinterest).

(Adding a reminder that I, myself, am not comfortable with discussing my fetish in person with anyone and would not mention it to a woman for my own personal reasons. I see it as a fantasy and it is okay to have fantasies, even ones less socially acceptable. I am not exaggerating that while I may be anxious or awkward about my first sexual experience, I would be absolutely petrified if a woman wanted me to practice even casual bondage with her, or on her. I might jump out a window and hit the ground running. But for our conversation here, since having a fetish is one of those things which a person might reasonably fear people gossiping about, I mentioned it a lot in examples. That, and it is the relevant topic of the thread.

I think part of this is that I have a fetish for something which can and has been applied to villainous ends. It's easy to enjoy it when it's happening to a fictional character (especially a two dimensional one). Even in a text roleplay, nothing is "really" happening and it is all collective imagination. But in real life, with a real woman, even if she wants that kind of thing badly, it still involves physically "doing it" to another person and the fear of having a link to something predatory, even if it is consensual.

Honestly I think the only way this would come out in a healthy way for me would be if I was in a long term, committed relationship, and the woman "discovered" light bondage on her own and suggested it to me and I merely acted like I'd never heard of it and was willing to try it out with her together. And hopefully she doesn't mind or notice that I suddenly all know these terms like "cinch," "OTM gag," and so on. Hey, I just Googled it. That's it, good ol' Google. That way I wouldn't have to initiate it and it wouldn't be a problem for her if I was petrified after she asked me to tie her hands, or because I did so with a mere square knot. "Mere square knot" being one of those terms she's not supposed to wonder why I know.)

[inbloomer]

I probably have more history than you of doing things where the intention was fine but it got a bad reaction. Really, if I'd just got these two bits of firm advice early on, it would have made everything else easier:

1) Crushes are feelings in your head that come from wanting a goal. They don't mean much either way as to whether that person would be good to date.
2) Because of the safety issues, you have to build in more of a margin with girls/women than you would when making male friends (e.g. inviting to meet at a neutral, busy place rather than directly at your house).

[Datelessman]

A "crush" really is just infatuation under another name. It can still be passionate and painful, but that is ultimately what it is.

And yes, safety is paramount for women for aforementioned risks to their lives and pleasure of a different proportion than it is for men. This is because of toxic men, which I think most MRA people forget. I was raised by a single mother and without getting too descriptive, she was quite frank about her past which regarded incidents of abuse and assault. So I was aware of that kind of thing from a very early age.

While I don't believe I ever scared or "creeped" a girl/woman out, I have repulsed plenty. As a youth I got a certain look so many times I officially dubbed it, "The Look of Ick." And again, I am not saying guys don't do that, or worse, with women they're not into. The language men use to describe women they're not romantically into can get very crude and cruel.

Part of why I never got certain reactions could have been due to the one social skill I actively cultivated; I could be funny. That's always been my main social strength. It sounds like a "humble brag" but I can almost make someone laugh at will. I don't know how I do it; I just get talking and even if I am just describing events it comes out funny. I had to actively focus on not doing that when working in call centers for 11 years. But that has to eventually pivot towards some kind of charisma or romantic overture and that was usually what did me in. Some dudes think "niceness" works like a point system in regards to romance, and I think some other dudes treat "funniness" that way, too. I know I used to when I was younger.

I think another vital lesson is: traits are not people. That applies in many ways, but one way that trips people up is that merely possessing certain positive traits doesn't automatically make someone appealing (just as, conversely, certain negative traits don't have to be "deal breakers"). I think with many men not quite understanding this leads to a lot of bitterness, anger, frustration, and so on which can get twisted into toxicity very easily (especially with moderately coordinated online efforts by other parties to do so for their own ends, i.e. selling products). For example, on paper I possess many traits which are supposedly "attractive:" I am intelligent, sensitive, funny, creative (to a point), compassionate and I like cats. And for at least a decade from my teen years into my 20s, I certainly was one of those dudes who would occasionally say, "women don't know what they want," which most of the time when someone says that, they really mean, "Women don't like me and I'm not an obvious monster, so something must be wrong with them." It took time for me to realize that just possessing traits like merit badges doesn't do much to encourage romance; it has to be presented in a certain way, to someone seeking it. In my life, quite a few women have liked me; it was just never romantic. I'm the perfect wacky pal to their current or ex boyfriend. I'm a live action cartoon mascot, and like a cartoon mascot or stuffed animal, sometimes I can be good for more serious stuff like venting or safely expressing emotions, but in the end I'm not one women "crush" on.

But, yes, fear of "scaring" women as well as the fact that my mother always disapproved of peril type scenes in shows due in large part o her own history and trauma led to me burying and shaming myself for my fetish for a very long time. But since I have limited control of resolving many other romantic or sexual problems that I have, in recent years I determined that I did have power over the fetish thing, which is why I am more overtly writing bondage fan-fiction on Deviantart, and doing text roleplays with folks. It has allowed a healthy and safe method of expression and I have gotten positive feedback. It's been a win-win, I'd say. The support here and on the blog has been a bonus.

[inbloomer]

That is one thing I really miss about being between the ages of about 8 and 22. There used to be times I was absolutely helpless on the floor with laughter, on and off for a whole evening, and causing the same in my friends, just from natural chemistry and situational observation. Even though I have many of the same friends still, it's never quite the same.

Although I still have a strong interest in humour, it's a part of my personality I'm more careful with now. It is one thing being funny within a small, close-knit group, where you know each other's styles and boundaries. Using it as a general tool for making friends and finding partners... at university I started to realise I was getting more fake laughs, where the woman I was speaking to had sensed this was a punchline and the polite thing was to laugh, rather than that she actually got the joke. I also found that edgy lines which would have been fine with my friends could cause great offence with strangers (our humour was never sexist or racist, but it was quite dark and cutting).

There are a few people who are just naturally incredibly funny, whoever they're around. But such people tend to have a self-destructive streak as the flipside, e.g. alcoholism, and often end up dying young. Then there are professional comedians who can be funny with a script and rehearsals, but aren't really any better than average at ad libbing jokes.

So yeah, I'd agree that being funny isn't the cheat code for generating attraction that it's often claimed to be.

[Datelessman]

The rule I always had about jokes or comedy or "being funny" when you don't know your audience (i.e. are not with longtime friends or family) is "err on the side of tame." If you start out too "dirty" or dark or morbid or so on, it is very easy to be misunderstood and then have to scale back, which almost always leads to a bad first impression. If you're with someone more into certain types of humor, or even things such as a tolerance for swear words (i.e. I have personally known a few women who didn't like curses and I had to be mindful of that long before I worked in call centers), it will usually become obvious when they reveal that in a conversation.

Admittedly, much as Doctor Nerdlove is not a real doctor, I am not a real comedian. I have had people, both friends and strangers, insist for decades that I should be one (or a disc jockey/radio personality, supposedly for my "nice voice"), but I don't have the confidence or the dedication. I'm actually not comfortable with "telling jokes;" I can tell a story that has funny moments or hooks, but not so much "man walks into a bar, says ouch" kind of stuff. But I do better working off what someone gives me in a conversation, or just relating an experience.

Like I've said, many (though not all) of the friends I have made who are women, especially the ones going back to high school and college, it was because they were dating one of my friends or associates and I was his wacky pal. I was never a creep, but also never the one anyone looked twice at or would have considered dating when a relationship ran its course, or would recommend to any other human woman. I was just a living cartoon character. I came in, said a catch phrase, got the studio audience to laugh, and then went home while the star did their thing. I was the supporting character in the sitcoms of others in my life, and then a few of them wondered why we don't get together much now that they've settled down and moved away.

And I think this works with kinks, too. If I am looking for someone new to do a text RP with, the first thing I do is look for "prompts" and then review those in line with what I am looking for. Just blindly messaging folks or not paying heed to their interests will lead to either non responses or bad ones. Then there is usually a brainstorming session. But even in a hypothetical fantasy world where I had a steady lover and they were willing to experiment with that stuff, you don't go from zero to "hogtie suspension" immediately. It's a steady, progressive escalation. And what little I know of "regular" sex and intimacy goes like that, too. It isn't going from "icebreaker" to "thrusting bodies," there is a ton of gap in between, often involving multiple dates. Even the most charming of lounge lizards looking for ONS have to be willing to invest hours with a receptive partner before any clothing comes off, and usually face a high failure rate.

That dynamic works with everything. Even if you're, say, giving a massage. It is always best to err on gentle rather than being too rough; if someone wants it firmer they can always ask or signal it. I admit it takes some social calibration, but once I figured this out, things got a little less stressful. Unfortunately, it took a lot of call center experience to force me into getting better at reading cues and social calibration, and by the time I was decent enough at it, I was in my mid 30s. Then a few years later, COVID-19 hit. And now here I am, writing bondage fetish stories on Deviantart.

[inbloomer]

One thing professional comedians often say is that the best gigs are where the audience has come to see you specifically. If you're a ranting, foul-mouthed type of comedian - well, if everyone there has bought a ticket with your name on it, they know what they're getting. Second-best is where the audience hasn't come for you specifically but they have come to see comedy. The worst gigs, the ones where you're at greatest risk of falling excruciatingly flat, is where the audience isn't expecting comedy, e.g. it's a corporate event your act has been tacked onto.

I think that mirrors the amateur experience of cracking jokes around your close friends vs. with people you know less well but are making jokes around you vs. in a context where jokes might not be inappropriate as such but people aren't expecting them.

ADDED: This whole thing of "I had all these qualities that women should, in theory, have been going gooey over but in practice they never did" - I had that too, but I'm fairly at peace with it these days. It would have been nice to have, but I don't see it as a massive personal failing in the way I maybe did at the time.

[Datelessman]

ADDED: This whole thing of "I had all these qualities that women should, in theory, have been going gooey over but in practice they never did" - I had that too, but I'm fairly at peace with it these days. It would have been nice to have, but I don't see it as a massive personal failing in the way I maybe did at the time.

Yeah, that was one of the things I outgrew, too. Granted, it also helps that I am over 40 now and the odds of me having many, or any, sexual adventures with actual living humans has diminished tremendously. My libido is slowing and I have a healthy outlet (the kinky fan fictions and text roleplays) for when it isn't. I am aging out of the viable dating pool for people who aren't committed into a LTR and that is okay.

Eventually I realized that lamenting about how "women like traits I have in other people" is not only useless whining, but it leads to entitlement or judging people for their choices. Both are toxic, unhelpful, and unhealthy opinions to have.

It really was helpful when I realized, admittedly in my late 30s, that I disliked bars and clubs not because of some negative self-talk like "being lame" but because as an introvert I just don't thrive in social situations which have too much stimulation. I realized I could hold court in a smaller group but when among a crowd I faded. And that this wasn't in itself a good or bad thing, but part of who I am. If I'd realized it sooner, I could have saved myself a lot of negative self-hatred or focused on settings that cater to that, if any.

[inbloomer]

You can disagree with people's choices, as long as you respect it was their choice to make. It's more that the whole trope of "generically great with women" feels discredited now. What's their secret? Oh, it's getting very pushy when they're not on public view. That seems to have been the case even with the names DNL has held up as great examples of having the right attitude.

I don't think it's impossible for me, but something would have to change that is beyond my power to effect. I met a woman at work recently (including through this year's run of Christmas parties), who is the first for a long time where there is obviously some chemistry between us - it's like our conversations keep ending up flirtatious even though we're both trying for them not to be. She's not single, she's about to move in with her boyfriend... and indeed, of all the women I've ever met, a very high proportion have not been single. I'm carefully making sure I don't get emotionally engaged - but can't help reflecting that it's not my fault this can't work.

[Datelessman]

It could be argued the whole notion of "charisma" is really in the eye of the beholder, and the narrator. One person's Don Juan can be another's Don Touch Me. And an overwhelming number of men consider "tactics" like relying on buzzed or flat out drunk women, underage women, and/or being extremely pushy as "fair game" when it isn't at all, or shouldn't be.

I just went to a housewarming party over the weekend and that included contact with an acquaintance (I'd never considered him a friend, just a friend of my friends) who often brags about his "high conquest totals." But get to know him for one evening and it's obvious he relies on all of the above, plus an utter lack of shamelessness (i.e. openly flirting with women who he knows are married and/or with boyfriends, even when said beau is in the room). He uses alcohol as an excuse to justify whatever he does (i.e. "I was drunk"). And of course one woman (albeit the mother of his kids) treated him fairly badly, so that's further justification. So many men complain when women treat them like slime because "one dude did that to you," but I've seen just as many men if not more punish all of womankind because of what one girl/woman did to them, or was thought to do. The only difference is there are entire industries dedicated to telling women to give men a chance despite what they look like or a woman's gut instinct, and there's really no similar industry that asks men to do the same. Not that it ever helped me at all, though.

Ideally I would prefer to keep discussion linked to the topic but I suppose some digression is alright. I mean, it is technically your topic.

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