Re: Depression and dating

[ReploidArmada]

I must admit, I'm having trouble focusing on the good parts of what I did do with my friend Emily. I'm having trouble focusing on the fact that I did show a non-zero amount of bravery and courage, asking her flat-out if she was interested in dating me. Instead, I feel disappointed, invisible, and hopeless. I feel like it's just back to square one *again*, trying to find yet another girl who's around my age and single and falls in line with my particular brand of attractiveness. I... I don't know how long it will be until another girl like that walks into my life, or vice versa, and it makes me feel sad.

[Werel]

It's okay to feel sad and disappointed in the immediate aftermath of a rejection. It can be hard, and feel really forced, to focus on the positives right away--so don't beat yourself up if you're not there yet. You can take some time to be sad about the disappearance of that specific possibility; focusing on how brave it was will probably be more helpful once you're past the initial sads, and are moving on to dusting yourself off and trying again. Next time you want to ask someone out, you now have an amazing rebuttal to any parts of your brain that tell you you're too weak or cowardly to do it.

[Guest]

Yeah... that definitely hurts like hell, it's back to the drawing board right? Yeah, that seriously does indeed suck. So, I'm sorry to hear it didn't go as well as you wanted. But hey, there's a few takeaways from this, too:

1. You showed that you're more than capable of asking someone out and being vulnerable with someone. Yeah, they may not be into you, but you know you're capable of doing this again when the next person rolls around.

2. It hurts a lot now, but you know you can deal with being rejected. It'll take a little bit of time to fully heal from the hurt, that's a given, but you'll be okay.

3. Take a look at your past and where you are now, sure maybe you're not where you want to be. From what I've read before, you've gone through a ton of crap and handled/dealt with it like a champ! I guess what I'm trying to say is similar to what Werel is saying.

Definitely let yourself feel hurt/sad, don't let it consume you though, but know that you were fully capable to ask someone out and handle the rejection. You'll be okay, bro.

[ReploidArmada]

There's been a couple running themes in my last couple therapy sessions. First, I've been struggling with this general, overall feeling that I'm a total failure. I'm 25 years old, nearly 26, and - not only have I not done a number of things that I really should have done a few years ago, like dating, having sex, drinking, et al - I still struggle *a lot* with things I should've mastered a few years ago, like social skills, hygiene, and motivation. There's no reason why a normal person would still be dealing with those issues at my age, and yet I am.

Second, I'm convinced that abstract motivation doesn't really work for me. A lot of the motivation that people have tried to put into my head is abstract: "If I work on my hygiene, my confidence might go up." "If I work on getting into shape, my self-esteem might go up." "If I learn how to talk to women in general, my confidence might go up." And et cetera. Unfortunately, I don't get that much motivation out of those sorts of promises. I would prefer something concrete, like a girl outright telling me that I would get rewarded with intimacy if I worked on improving myself. Unfortunately for me, that will never happen, because what sort of girl would want to date/fuck someone like me, who needs to be reminded to take regular showers? There is that Emily girl, but she and I have already established that we were not dating, so that's basically off the table unless she decides to change her mind.

[Enail]

Everyone would prefer concrete promises, but intimacy is not a reward. No woman will outright tell you you would get rewarded with intimacy if you worked on improving yourself - not because no one would ever want to date/fuck someone like you or because you're struggling with taking showers, but because that's a pretty lousy way to think of another human being's role in dating and fucking. Why would this hypothetical woman make her dating and fucking choices in order to reward you, rather than based on her own feelings and wants?! Why would you want someone to date or fuck you as a reward for you rather than because that's what they want to do?! Women are not there to give you rewards, they're there to live their own lives.

Try to stop reinforcing this idea that love and sex are things you could be rewarded by if you improve enough or that you'll never have, but rather think about it as improving what kind of partner you could be to someone else, so that there's more reason someone would get joy from dating or fucking you and so that it's easier for other people to see that.

Lots of people struggle with all kinds of things they "should" have mastered, at any age. Life is hard, even the things that are supposed to be simple, and we don't talk about that a lot, because people are scared to admit to their struggles. So everyone goes around comparing themselves to other peoples' best surfaces, and feels like they're the only one who can't handle those things. It's okay to be dealing with whatever issues you're dealing with, at whatever time you're dealing with them.

[Prajnaparamita]

Women are not there to give you rewards, they're there to live their own lives.

This, a thousand times this. Reploid, I know it might be uncomfortable to hear this, and I hope that you realize that I care about you and I'm really sorry to hear that you're still suffering so much despite gains that you've made, but wanting to be rewarded by women with sex and intimacy in return for working to get your life together is a really toxic mindset and I really don't want you to fall into that.

I think it was particularly hard for me to read this from you because well, recently I got briefly involved with this really depressed guy who was struggling a lot. Meeting me gave him the motivation to take care of himself, to make sure he actually ate regular meals and brushed his teeth and sought a better place to live, but when I finally ended up getting in a relationship with a guy I had been dating casually for some six months then and ended things with him (having made clear the entire time that I was only casually dating and seeing other people at the time) he flipped out at me, did the whole "if you leave me I'll kill myself", and acted out in textbook abusive manipulative ways. And I guess, well he justified it to himself because I was his reward apparently for getting better and if his reward got taken away from him he had to lash out and control me and constantly remind me that the self-harm he engaged in was my fault, for taking away what he was "owed". It was fucking miserable and I was a wreck for weeks, wondering when the next escalation of his threats of self harm would come, feeling too guilty to cut contact, because what if he really did kill himself and it was all my fault? I don't want to be overly harsh, or for this to make you hurt anymore than you already are, but that kind of manipulation is the logical conclusion of that kind of thinking, where women serve as rewards and derivation on their part from that role results in punishment and control.

[BasedBuzzed]

Getting into shape nets you lifespan and a better condition which directly counters depression. Hygiene helps you not to get sick (getting sick interacts with depression). Skills in talking to people will help you in other areas in life, such as the job market (far more important when it comes to living a life than sex or intimacy, and income insecurity also boosts depression). It's not abstract at all.

[ReploidArmada]

As much as I'd love to reply to what all of you have (rightfully) called me out on, first, I have to bring up something that went *horribly wrong* today. I swear, I have a preternatural ability to predict bad shit happening to me, and it's getting really obnoxious and painful.

People who have followed this thread may remember me mentioning a girl named Emily, who showed up at the Tuesday board game meetup I go to a couple months ago. Two weeks after I first saw her, I asked her in no uncertain terms if she was interested in dating me, and she said she wasn't interested in dating me but she was interested in spending time with me.

No more than two hours after my last post here, in which I wrote "...because what sort of girl would want to date/fuck someone like me...," she sent me a text, which started the following exchange:

E > Hey, just to be up front, I've actually started dating someone recently. I'm now getting the feeling that you are looking for more than friendship and for that reason I don't feel that we should hang out. Best of luck to you though.

R > Okay... I understand. You're right, at least in part. I was very hopeful that I would be able to finally be able to start dating someone, but I also wanted to relax and enjoy our friendship for what it was. Still, I won't begrudge you for your decision. I do have one last question, though, if you don't mind. Where did I go wrong? Is there one main thing I could work on that contributed to you not wanting to date me? I want to know because I'm currently spending a lot of effort working on improving myself, and if there was a main turn-off for you, then I could work on improving that for the next girl.

E > Oh seriously not anything. I thought you were very nice and fun to talk to, and you came across as confident and knowledgeable. There are loads of single ladies in the city so keep putting yourself out there because it's just a matter of odds. Best of luck!

R > I don't want to get into the full tale, but suffice to say I have a lot of difficulty putting myself out there, meeting singles, and interacting with them. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. You've made your decision, and I'm going to live with it, somehow. So, for all of the time we did spend together... Thank you. I wish you, and whoever is lucky enough to be your partner, the best in all things.

E > Thanks. All the best to you as well.

Or, basically, she called off and ended the friendship I had with her because I wanted to date her, and she chose someone else to date, or such is my understanding.

It's impossible for me to fathom, or describe, how much this hurts me. Getting rejected the first time didn't hurt as much, in part because I feel like I wasn't actually expecting her to say yes in the first place. I was mostly asking to let her know my intentions, and to clear up any confusion for future interactions with her. This time, though... This was a lot worse than being told "I don't want to date you, but we can still be friends." This is like being told "I don't want to be friends with you any more in the first place, simply because you wanted to date me," because it was.

I can't help but ask myself a number of questions, like... Why? What happened? What happened to the rapport I had with her early on? Was I not good enough for her? Was there something I did, or didn't do, that permanently turned off any interest she may have had in me? Was she interested in me to begin with? What am I supposed to do now? What sort of personal things am I supposed to work on now? How much longer do I have to wait in order to find someone who will even give me a chance to date them, let alone fall in love?

I feel a lot of things about this. Hurt, deceived, hopeless, worthless, and a number of other bad adjectives, but most of all... I feel scared. I fear that there's no way out of this purgatory. I fear that, if my heart keeps breaking like this, then something... something very, very bad... will happen to me.

-------------------------

Now then. Enail, Prajna, you're completely right: A woman should want to be intimate with me because *she* wants to, and specifically because she wants to be intimate with *me*, not because she wants to reward me for something. At the same time, though, I have no reason to believe that "hypothetical woman wanting to be intimate with me" is something that will *ever* come true. My self-esteem, my confidence, my outlook on life, and a number of other things about my mind and my personality, are far too poor for me to believe that I'll ever have a chance with anyone. That's why I keep bringing up the idea that "the only love I'll ever be able to get will be paid," like I was going to have to see a prostitute, stripper, or other sex worker. That's why I wanted to believe that companionship and intimacy could be a reward.

That raises an inevitable question, though. If I'm not supposed to use the promise of intimacy as motivation, and other forms or sources of motivation don't seem to do anything for me, then what am I supposed to keep in mind? What should my motivation be, I suppose? What is my reason to get up in the morning? What is the reason why I keep fighting against my depression, instead of succumbing to it and living out the rest of my life (however short or long it may be) in perpetual darkness of the mind and soul?

[Enail]

Oh, that sucks that you lost your friend, I'm sorry.

Since you're asking what might have gone wrong there, I have one thought. I notice that your response to her is full of comments about how much you wish she wanted to date you and how hard her rejection is for her - it seems like you're giving her a lot of your feelings to handle and trying to hand her responsibility for your romantic success.  Based on the way you're talking there and on the way you talk about sex and relationships in general, I get the sense that you might have been asking her to handle a lot of your romantic feelings, giving off a continued, constant impression of wanting to date her even after you'd cleared the air and she'd turned you down, making your feelings something with an ongoing presence in the relationship between you. That can be a really uncomfortable thing for someone who only wants to be friends, or it can make them worry that you'll pressure them or have romantic expectations anyway.  Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to work on finding other outlets for your romantic feelings and unhappiness about them, than women who have indicated they aren't interested.

Of course, I could be wrong and she might just be one of those people who doesn't like to have friendships with people who are interested in her when she's in a relationship with someone else. That's a thing some people do, for whatever reason.

It's not bad after a rejection to give a bit of thought to if there's something particular that might have been an issue, but be careful of falling into self-flagellation or into the trap of thinking that there's a set checklist to meet and as long as you do all those things right, all potential dates will want to date you. Often there isn't anything you're doing wrong or anything wrong with you, there's just a lack of compatibility or spark or availability or... It doesn't mean you're "not good enough" or that you will never find love.

Now then. Enail, Prajna, you're completely right: A woman should want to be intimate with me because *she* wants to, and specifically because she wants to be intimate with *me*, not because she wants to reward me for something. At the same time, though, I have no reason to believe that "hypothetical woman wanting to be intimate with me" is something that will *ever* come true. My self-esteem, my confidence, my outlook on life, and a number of other things about my mind and my personality, are far too poor for me to believe that I'll ever have a chance with anyone. That's why I keep bringing up the idea that "the only love I'll ever be able to get will be paid," like I was going to have to see a prostitute, stripper, or other sex worker. That's why I wanted to believe that companionship and intimacy could be a reward.

That raises an inevitable question, though. If I'm not supposed to use the promise of intimacy as motivation, and other forms or sources of motivation don't seem to do anything for me, then what am I supposed to keep in mind? What should my motivation be, I suppose? What is my reason to get up in the morning? What is the reason why I keep fighting against my depression, instead of succumbing to it and living out the rest of my life (however short or long it may be) in perpetual darkness of the mind and soul?

You can use the hope of intimacy as motivation, of course, but a promise of it is not something you're going to get, that's just the reality of living in a world of human beings with their own lives.  If you think about it, intimacy as a reward wouldn't be real intimacy, because intimacy is based on mutual feelings of closeness and desire, right? So if real intimacy is something you want, approaching it from the mindset that it's something the universe grants you when you've done enough, is counterproductive and could even be destructive. Can you think about what it might be like to have that kind of connection and desire with a real person, rather than a woman-shaped reward? Someone who has their own needs and problems and preferences, some of which might not perfectly match your ideal. And then also, could you be attracted to someone who was imperfect? Who struggled with life tasks sometimes? Whose insecurities might make things difficult for you sometimes? If you can, well, that's something women can too, so maybe that's a path to growing your ability to see yourself as desirable.

[Guest]

There's been a couple running themes in my last couple therapy sessions. First, I've been struggling with this general, overall feeling that I'm a total failure. I'm 25 years old, nearly 26, and - not only have I not done a number of things that I really should have done a few years ago, like dating, having sex, drinking, et al - I still struggle *a lot* with things I should've mastered a few years ago, like social skills, hygiene, and motivation. There's no reason why a normal person would still be dealing with those issues at my age, and yet I am.

Motivation is fleeting, bro. It's all about building habits and in particular healthy habits or at the very least habits that don't bust your balls and bring you down in the dumps. Yes, it's hard to build those habits, but it's possible. Habits > motivation, most of the time. Though if you must need some motivation, have a goal to achieve. Probably something tangible like a particular job or career or degree or whatever. Something that makes you get up and outta bed, just don't lose sight of that goal. Yes, you may get overwhelmed by something, but remember what your working towards. My suggestion to you if you wanna go with the "goal" route is don't make being in a relationship/sex the goal. Your goal could be anything that deeply interests you except sex/relationships.

Second, I'm convinced that abstract motivation doesn't really work for me. A lot of the motivation that people have tried to put into my head is abstract: "If I work on my hygiene, my confidence might go up." "If I work on getting into shape, my self-esteem might go up." "If I learn how to talk to women in general, my confidence might go up." And et cetera. Unfortunately, I don't get that much motivation out of those sorts of promises. I would prefer something concrete, like a girl outright telling me that I would get rewarded with intimacy if I worked on improving myself. Unfortunately for me, that will never happen, because what sort of girl would want to date/fuck someone like me, who needs to be reminded to take regular showers? There is that Emily girl, but she and I have already established that we were not dating, so that's basically off the table unless she decides to change her mind.

Only because it bears repeating, motivation is fleeting, habits are more tangible/possible and become routine.

And also, be EXTREMELY careful with associating dating/sex/relationships as a reward, man. That shit is not a healthy attitude to have... Enail and Prajna summed up and explained that attitude pretty well.

[ReploidArmada]

@Enail: Now that I'm thinking a little more clearly (not a whole lot, only the tiniest bit, FWIW), I think you might be right: I very well might have been projecting my desires and, even though there was an understanding we weren't dating, my expectations about such onto her. With how infrequently (read: never) potential partners come around for me, I would not be surprised if that was the case. It's entirely plausible that I may have latched onto her like a stray puppy, hoping for the slightest hope of contact, based on my initial interactions with her. It's rare that I run into a girl I'm attracted to, at least after several instances of becoming attracted at the drop of a hat only to learn that they were never really single at all, so having that happen again - and with someone who I seemed to be able to connect with very easily - may have been too exciting a concept not to stay grounded in reality.

Of course, without her side of the story, we'll never really know. I have a feeling that her first reply was mostly intended as a way to avoid bruising my ego - that whole "it's not you, it's me," thing. It just doesn't really help that I have no ego to stroke, and the whole thing just struck me as deceitful, and still made me feel like I was a worthless sack of unlovable, depressed shit

I wish I had a good outlet for my romantic feelings and desires, because I simply don't have one right now. Not only have I completely and utterly failed every single attempt at even beginning to date IRL, I've also been shot down over the internet, too. Over the last few months, I've been *trying* to get... something done on r/dirtypenpals, which if you've never been to that subreddit is basically exactly what it sounds like. Unfortunately, as a M4F in that sort of forum, getting any amount of contact is a craps shoot at best. A number of people in that sub have told me that even the best male posters there have a <20% response/prompt ratio, whereas mine is closer to <0%. They've tried to tell me to just "keep posting" but... That's been incredibly difficult and disheartening to do. What reason would I have to continue setting myself up for nigh-guaranteed failure? All that would do is make me feel worse, and sure enough, it has.

Also, I'm afraid I already have fallen into the trap of self-flagellation that you mentioned. Several times, now, in fact, usually every single time something goes wrong in my life as far as relationships (or r/DPP) go. It's really hard not to, you know? My mind keeps telling me that I'm not good enough for anything big that I haven't been able to get.

@Mikey: I fear I don't have any deep interests other than sex and relationships, so by the logic of "anything (else) that deeply interests you," there's nothing for me to create and draw goals from. I guess I want to do things like get a better job, move out of my dad's house (and, more importantly, away from my dad in the first place), get into shape, and learn to drive? The problem is that I don't feel any sort of drive or, well, motivation to work on those right now. My mind tells me "what's the point?" What's the point of all of those other things I have to work on when I have so many other things I need to be doing *right this very second*?

I mentioned this to my therapist yesterday, and it still holds true. I feel like I have about ten different things that I need to be doing since yesterday, and I don't have the energy or motivation or willpower to keep up with one of them, let alone any appreciable number of said things.

[Wondering]

Of course, without her side of the story, we'll never really know. I have a feeling that her first reply was mostly intended as a way to avoid bruising my ego - that whole "it's not you, it's me," thing.

I'm going to say this not to be harsh, but to be straightforward because I see several comments you've made since posting your conversation with her that indicate you're not recognizing this. She does give you her side of the story, and she does say it's you, not her:
"I'm now getting the feeling that you are looking for more than friendship and for that reason I don't feel that we should hang out."

You admit that. To her in the feelings dump Enail talks about and again here. So, she was perfectly clear -- this behavior of yours made her uncomfortable -- and she wasn't willing to deal with it any longer. You can extrapolate that this is because now she's dating someone; though that may not be the actual catalyst, it's likely. But she's clear. She even prefaces her comment with "I'm going to be up front." And she is.

And then you ask her to explain why she wouldn't date you. She doesn't have specifics to give you, either because you put her on the spot or because she doesn't want to get into that sort of conversation about it or because she doesn't have specifics since it was just a vibe. And men often try to "logic" women out of their reasons for ending relationships (friendship, romantic, professional), and perhaps she thought that's where you were heading, too. Who knows why she didn't give specifics. But she had given you a clear no on dating and a clear reason why she was ending the friendship.

the whole thing just struck me as deceitful

I'd really like you to stop and look at this reaction critically and thoroughly. Where does she say or do anything deceitful? From your reports, she was clear from the start she didn't want to date you. And she was clear in the text you quoted that she didn't want to continue the friendship because you were still behaving as if dating was on the future table, even though it wasn't. That is honest and straightforward.

I see this reaction from men so often that women who don't do or say the things the men in question want are dishonest and not to be trusted. It is, at its root, a sexist if not outright misogynist response. You'll see anyone from guys who say they're feminist to bitter MRAs express this kind of sentiment about women. Please do not do this. It won't help you in general if you have a predisposition to viewing half the population with suspicion, and it certainly won't help you have healthy relationships with women, romantic or not.

[Guest]

@Mikey: I fear I don't have any deep interests other than sex and relationships, so by the logic of "anything (else) that deeply interests you," there's nothing for me to create and draw goals from. I guess I want to do things like get a better job, move out of my dad's house (and, more importantly, away from my dad in the first place), get into shape, and learn to drive? The problem is that I don't feel any sort of drive or, well, motivation to work on those right now. My mind tells me "what's the point?" What's the point of all of those other things I have to work on when I have so many other things I need to be doing *right this very second*?

I mentioned this to my therapist yesterday, and it still holds true. I feel like I have about ten different things that I need to be doing since yesterday, and I don't have the energy or motivation or willpower to keep up with one of them, let alone any appreciable number of said things.

That may also be part of your problem, from personal experience, I can tell you that I've had all-consuming thoughts like those too. And the only way to really shake that off is to dive deep into other interests or stop for a moment, look around you and see what problem there is that needs to be addressed. Currently, for myself for example, yes I'm still lonely as fuck with zero romantic or sexual outlet either. However, that's not on the list of priorities while my job is making me more miserable than the lack of women in my life.

Plus bills, my Jeep, my depressed dog, my lack of money... you get the point, those are things that need addressing in my life that I need to fix or help fix. Look, even if you don't have said deep interests, find them. It won't hurt to look for them at all, go do shit and see if you like it even if you suck at it the first time. I should have prefaced that bit with "find", apologies. But point still stands, find it for yourself. If you ever wanted to take up art, go do that, take a class somewhere. If you wanna get in shape, go run or swim (there's workouts online you can find, just consult with a doctor to see if you can do it). The list is endless and there's countless things you can do.

Okay and you just listed other stuff you wanna do, those are goals, work towards them. Your mind is being a total asshole to you, "What's the point?", I'll tell ya what's the point to doing all that, the point is it'll help you feel better about yourself. I have a pal that's barely passed his drivers writing test and he's the same age as us! Just because you got to one thing later than others isn't a problem.

Take on one thing at a time, slowly but surely. I know you'll ask yourself what's the point, well the point is learning to drive, getting a good (or decent) job and moving away from dad so you can be happier. And you know what, fuck motivation. All motivation is is to kickstart your heart and brain into taking action, which helps, but like I said is fleeting. So even if you're not motivated, actually put in the effort to learn how to drive or get a job doing whatever and so on. Like at this point, it can't be about sex/dating anymore, I mean, yeah those are nice but not entirely necessary.

I know I'm not a model to follow on how to deal with loneliness or the lack of sex/relationships, but to keep myself from being constantly miserable about how lonely I am, I really had to look at what was most important in life. Let me tell you, women aren't the answer. Women are awesome but... they can't and won't solve your problems, man. That's a hard lesson for me to have realized way back, but I got my own shyness and hangups to figure out.

Where am I going with this, oh... there's more to life than just sex. All in all, I understand that the depressed mind fucks with you a lot. Get better, man.

[Enail]

I second Wondering's point. It sounds like she was clear and honest with you from the start, but your hopes said "maybe she doesn't mean the no," and your jerkbrain is saying "her reasons for breaking off the friendship weren't the truth because it's much easier just to believe you're unhelpably awful and undesirable than that there's something you did that you could do differently next time."

I wish I had a good outlet for my romantic feelings and desires, because I simply don't have one right now. Not only have I completely and utterly failed every single attempt at even beginning to date IRL, I've also been shot down over the internet, too. Over the last few months, I've been *trying* to get... something done on r/dirtypenpals, which if you've never been to that subreddit is basically exactly what it sounds like. Unfortunately, as a M4F in that sort of forum, getting any amount of contact is a craps shoot at best. A number of people in that sub have told me that even the best male posters there have a <20% response/prompt ratio, whereas mine is closer to <0%. They've tried to tell me to just "keep posting" but... That's been incredibly difficult and disheartening to do. What reason would I have to continue setting myself up for nigh-guaranteed failure? All that would do is make me feel worse, and sure enough, it has.

By finding an outlet for your feelings, I don't mean a woman who will receive and reciprocate them, I mean finding a way to deal with unreciprocated feelings that is healthy and respectful to others. Maybe that's journalling, maybe it's talking about them with a willing friend you don't have feelings for or with your therapist, maybe it's doing something active until you're too tired out to focus on the feelings, maybe it's singing sad songs at the top of your lungs and getting them all out.

But it is not healthy to expect that there's a woman who will handle all those feelings: even in the future if you're easily finding women you;re interested in who are interested in you, you will sometimes be rejected; even if you're in a happy relationship you will sometimes feel hurt or rejected or lonely at times when it's not reasonable to ask that your partner sooth your feelings, and giving those people responsibility for your feelings isn't good for either of you. And it is not respectful to others to ask women who are not interested in you romantically to handle your feelings about the fact that you are interested in them or the fact that they're not interested in you - the fact that you have feelings about them doesn't mean that those feelings are or should be their issue. It seems like you look really hard towards your romantic interests, fantasy or real, to solve your unhappiness, and I don't think it's serving you well or being kind to other people.

[Prajnaparamita]

I see this reaction from men so often that women who don't do or say the things the men in question want are dishonest and not to be trusted. It is, at its root, a sexist if not outright misogynist response... Please do not do this. It won't help you in general if you have a predisposition to viewing half the population with suspicion, and it certainly won't help you have healthy relationships with women, romantic or not.

Oh god this is so sadly true.

Hey Reploid, you're a really great guy and I care about you a lot, so I've been holding back from commenting on this thread much because I didn't want to overwhelm you or make you feel guilty or ashamed by bringing up my stuff It's just... I was, as I mentioned, recently harassed and guilt tripped for an extended period by an extremely depressed virgin dude who used his lack of experience to really latch onto me and then used really similar reasoning on me and it's hard not to get emotional about seeing this kind of stuff from you. He did the same thing, he accused me of being deceitful and leading him on when I gave him my reasons for not feeling comfortable dating him (namely, that I couldn't be the everything for someone, their only reason for continuing with life because then I'd feel trapped, constantly afraid to leave and have them fall apart, a hostage to their depression) even thought he fully admitted that he'd heard loud and clear that I hadn't been looking for a relationship or anything serious. I had told him that I was dating super casually, that I wasn't looking for a boyfriend, yet he decided in his own head that I was going to be his girlfriend and accused me of lying and manipulation when I made it clear I very much wasn't.

And even if she didn't mean the things that she said to you in that text, well... I really hate to say this, and obviously any analysis of what Emily said to you is only my personal opinion because I don't know her and I don't know what's in her head, but to me personally what she wrote read a lot to me like what I'll say to men when I'm silently pleading "please please please don't stalk or harass me..." (And I think there's a legitimate chance of that happening) It's kind, yet vague, attempting to preemptively defuse any retaliation or anger on his part. Obviously I can't know if that's the case, but I hope you can understand why it is that women might avoid or respond vaguely to that question. I tried honestly recently and it ended with a dude I had gone on only a couple dates with blowing up my phone telling me how he was going to kill himself and it was all my fault, sending me into panic attacks for days

[ReploidArmada]

At this point, I don't know what hurts more: Losing a friend of mine, or being repeatedly called out and - for lack of a better word - criticized by you guys for how I felt and treated her when it happened.

At this point, I'm starting to feel *very* guilty and ashamed for how I acted and what I said, not only to her but also here. It's clear to everyone involved that I have literally no idea how to be in a relationship with anyone, nor do I have any idea how to handle *not* being in a relationship. My emotions and hopes are getting in the way of being a good person and partner, someone who will actually *be* attractive in mind and body, someone who will actually treat people with respect and compassion and all of those other things we think are good to have.

At this point, I'm starting to really worry about, and fear, my own mind. I'm afraid of what it will make me think, make me say, and most importantly, make me *do*. I've always been afraid of the concept of becoming suicidal, but so far, I don't think I've ever actually been in that position before. Now, I think I might be.

At this point, I cannot see or even imagine a way out of this hellhole I find myself in. All of my desires are, as you folks pointed out and mentioned numerous times, toxic and disrespectful. All of my dreams are unattainable. All of my emotional outlets are destructive, both to me and to the people I associate with. All that really exists in my life is pain and suffering, and there's no way out.

*sigh*

I just want the pain to stop, and at this point, I don't think I care how anymore... 

[BasedBuzzed]

If we're reaching a point where the discussion here are causing you hurt, repeat after me: it does not matter what we think in the long run. We are a collection of internet people you will never meet. Use what is useful, discard what causes you pain. Look for viewpoints that are caricatures of "emotional outlets are destructive and male desire is toxic" and then see how it's possible to live entirely on spite for what they make you out to be. Your internal emotional wellbeing, so long as you do not impose it on others, trumps all the discussion here. Learning can only happen if you actually live, so prioritize survival over self-flagellation.

[Enail]

<mod> First, Reploid, if you're actively suicidal, you need to stop reading this thread and go get professional help immediately. Your safety is priority #1.  We are all rooting for you, you can learn how to handle this stuff in safe and healthy ways, and I don't think your dreams are unattainable, even if they might be different from what you expect.

From your post, I'm reading it more as you feeling a flareup of suicidal feelings rather than that you are in danger of harming yourself, which is not something we're equipped to deal with on this forum, but I'm temporarily locking this thread while we get a handle on things. I'll update once we've done that. Stay safe!
</mod>

[Enail]

<mod>Okay, re-opening the thread. Reploid, let us know if you want us to pause it at any point in the future. </mod>

[Werel]

Hey Reploid, I'm also sorry you lost a friend you really liked. That's always hard; hope you're feeling a bit better.

Maybe one thing that would help in the aftermath is trying to cut back on all-or-nothing thinking about it, though? That's probably something you've discussed with your therapist before, but there's real merit to stopping yourself every time you start thinking stuff like

All of my desires are, as you folks pointed out and mentioned numerous times, toxic and disrespectful. All of my dreams are unattainable. All of my emotional outlets are destructive, both to me and to the people I associate with. All that really exists in my life is pain and suffering, and there's no way out.

I definitely understand the temptation to think in black and white terms, especially when you've got depression-brain nudging you in that direction-- but if you can, try and stop yourself in your (mental) tracks and remind yourself that thoughts which start with "all" or "never" or "forever" are rarely grounded in reality.

I'm late to this thread, but reading back over it, I don't see anybody calling your desires toxic, or your dreams unattainable; wanting to be in a mutually fulfilling romantic relationship is neither toxic nor impossible. Sure, you made a mistake in the way you handled one situation, with one person. Everyone does that sometimes. And yeah, the particular mistakes you made probably caused Emily discomfort, and that's a thing we all want to avoid. Everything folks said about not sharing your big feelings about rejection with the person who's rejected you is spot-on. But if at all possible, learning from that mistake rather than nosediving into a shame spiral will help you move past it and heal from the loss of your friend, and help you avoid this kind of hurt in the future. Given the pain you're feeling now, can avoiding similar pain be a decent source of motivation?

Plus, learning how to face interpersonal mistakes and grow from them is maybe the most important skill you can develop for being in a relationship! Maintaining relationships in the long run is all about learning to really see your missteps, say sorry and mean it, and do better in the future. If you want to be a good partner to someone, you can start by working to bounce back from being told "hey, I like you a lot, but you messed up," and using it to grow instead of to flagellate yourself. I know that's way, way easier said than done--it takes a lot of time and effort to train yourself out of jumping right to "I'M HUMAN GARBAGE" when your brain's acclimated to sending you there. But if a fulfilling romantic life is your number one life priority, it's a thing you'll need to do. And if it's not something you're already working on with your therapist, it might be a good thing to bring up and ask for help with. It's worth it, and I know you have it in you!

[reboot]

Hey Reploid,

Sorry things did not work out with Emily as friends. I wanted to mention something in the context of this:

..... It's clear to everyone involved that I have literally no idea how to be in a relationship with anyone, nor do I have any idea how to handle *not* being in a relationship. My emotions and hopes are getting in the way of being a good person and partner, someone who will actually *be* attractive in mind and body, someone who will actually treat people with respect and compassion and all of those other things we think are good to have......:

Do you want to know how people learn to be in relationships and how to get into relationships? By making mistakes and learning from them. Use this experience to learn and remember no one is perfect the first time they do anything. As I see it, you have learned some areas to work on and maybe learned that, at least for you at this point, trying to be friends with someone you have feelings for right after rejection might not w. You might need time to pass for feelings to subside or maybe you are not wired to be friends with crushes. This is valuable information for the future.

Learning is done by making mistakes. Expect to make more of them, because everyone does.

[Hirundo Bos]

Hey, Reploid. Rejection hurts, friend rejection no less than the romantic kind. And pain takes brainpower away from resisting the black-or-white thinking Werel points out, and that makes it hurt even more. I haven't learned any good ways to avoid that cycle myself, though it does sometimes help when I remind myself it's there, that this is how pain affect my thinking. Anyway, I'm sorry you are in pain.

I'm jumping in a bit late because you ask some questions about goals and rewards... which is something I've learned a lot about myself on these pages. You've already talked a bit about why other people's affection isn't something to set as a goal and expect as a reward, and I agree with all the reasons for that. A personal goal shouldn't rely on other people's choices, because people must make their choices for the own reasons, not for yours.

A good goal should be about your own actions, which are the only thing you really can control. Like, getting a job isn't a productive goal; applying for X jobs in a week is better. This actually also helps make the goal less abstract... your own actions will always be less remote, more tangible, easier to interpret, than the actions of other people.

Now, another thing that can make goals feel really abstract is when they involve complex changes and/or set to happen pretty far into the future. "Becoming confident" and "finding people to share intimacy with" are both pretty long-term goals. They consist of many many small steps, and many many small events. Neither our problem-solving skills, nor our reward-and-motivational systems work very well on that scale... long-term goals can help with long-term planning, but to get something done, you must break it down into smaller pieces. Tasks you can get started on today. Or tomorrow. Or at most, next week.

So in summary you're more likely to accomplish and get rewards from goals that are short term, easy to measure, broken down into simple tasks, and don't depend on the actions of others....

It does take practice to find those kind of goals. And it takes effort to lower your eyes from the bigger picture, even knowing it might help you find your footing. Taking small steps one after another is something we've seen you do here before, though, so there's good reason to believe you can do it again.

[ReploidArmada]

Oh boy, I have a lot of people to reply to. Hopefully I don't miss anything. If I do, apologies!

@Wondering: I've been thinking about what, in particular, I found "deceitful" about Emily's latest correspondence with me. I came to the conclusion that there were two parts about that whole exchange that set off that feeling. The first was that, six weeks prior, she told me that she wasn't looking for anyone to date, when I asked her for that. Then, she told me she was dating someone else, and called off our platonic friendship, citing my continued desire to date her. Now, it's entirely possible that she did in fact change her mind about dating in that six-week span, but somehow, that doesn't really strike me as likely. Instead, I feel like she was doing something that I'm about to go into.

The second thing is that, to borrow words from Prajnaparamita, it felt like she was complimenting me "attempting to preemptively defuse any retaliation or anger on (my) part." It felt like she was doing so for her own sake; not because she legitimately thought I was a good person, or nice to talk to, or whatever, but instead to try and protect herself from being stalked and harassed as a result of this failed friendship. Some others here mentioned something like that, but I don't want to look through ten or so posts. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that even *I* can detect a bit of bias from my jerkbrain in the above statements. However, I don't yet know how to really counter and remove those invasive thoughts.

@Werel: Well, here's (one of) the problem(s) with me and my catastrophic, black-and-white thoughts: It's true that they might not be grounded in reality, but what they *are* grounded in is past experience. It's almost hard to believe that I've been suffering for the past ten years of my life, and there's this sense that I shouldn't have taken as long as I have thus far, but I have. So far, there has been ten years of experience telling me that my dreams don't come true, that love doesn't exist for me, and that all there is in my life is mental and emotional pain. It's going to take a while to overcome those core beliefs, and sometimes, I wonder if I ever will. Especially since my old therapist left...

@reboot: I can understand the concept of making mistakes and learning from them. However, I feel like this would've had a lot different of an outcome (for me, anyway) if I was drowning in potentially-romantic contact with females. Instead, I'm very much starved for said attention. This was the first potential date I had met in multiple months, probably years. I think this wouldn't have affected me as much if this sort of thing was even slightly more common in my life. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to learn from what has transpired this past week, but I'm not likely to be able to apply said knowledge for a while, and by the time I do it's possible I might have forgotten.

@Hirundo Bos: I'm probably retreading things I've already said, but I've noticed a long time ago that my mind focuses almost exclusively on the end goals I have in mind, namely my desire to find a romantic partner for myself (along with some of the corollaries that come with that). As a direct result, I find it nigh-impossible to notice what I have actually done in terms of progress. I'll just have to add that to the list of things I need to work on with my therapist...

[Guest]

@Wondering: I've been thinking about what, in particular, I found "deceitful" about Emily's latest correspondence with me. I came to the conclusion that there were two parts about that whole exchange that set off that feeling. The first was that, six weeks prior, she told me that she wasn't looking for anyone to date, when I asked her for that. Then, she told me she was dating someone else, and called off our platonic friendship, citing my continued desire to date her. Now, it's entirely possible that she did in fact change her mind about dating in that six-week span, but somehow, that doesn't really strike me as likely. Instead, I feel like she was doing something that I'm about to go into.

Reploid, Do you suppose you know her well enough to lend credibility to this conjecture?

Whether or not you think she was being deceitful is ultimately inconsequential because, the bottom-line is that she doesn't want to date you.

Best try to refrain from asking "Why?". The true reasons won't bring you any closure.

[reboot]

.....

@reboot: I can understand the concept of making mistakes and learning from them. However, I feel like this would've had a lot different of an outcome (for me, anyway) if I was drowning in potentially-romantic contact with females. Instead, I'm very much starved for said attention. This was the first potential date I had met in multiple months, probably years. I think this wouldn't have affected me as much if this sort of thing was even slightly more common in my life. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to learn from what has transpired this past week, but I'm not likely to be able to apply said knowledge for a while, and by the time I do it's possible I might have forgotten.

...

How can you forget? It is all written right here

Honestly, you are more likely to remember things from rare experiences than common ones because they are rare. You have the time to reflect and analyze your reactions to these circumstances. You now know that trying to be friends after a rejection probably is not going to work for you, so if you get rejected next time, you know not to try for anything beyond superficial acquaintances (i.e sharing experiences, not feelings) at most. If that is the only thing you learn, it is still valuable.

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