Re: The fear of "Too Late"

[reboot]

There is no point in worrying about the judgement of anyone who does not have a direct impact on your circumstances (e.g. boss, coworkers, whoever you live with, whoever you care about).

Except potential bosses, potential coworkers etc do carry judgments that do affect your circumstances just as much. And when don't have anything to impress them with, or they'll take a look at you or your history and go "Yikes", then that actually matters a lot.

....

They do, but bosses in general, especially in the jobs you are thinking of, do not really care if you are " normal " or fail at life. They want someone they can be reasonably certain will do the work and not steal, to whom they can pay the lowest going rate. They do not care if you still live at home, have no friends, have never had a girlfriend, etc.. They might care about the lack of work history, but not too much in high churn jobs that require few specialized skills. Coworkers also do not care about you or your history as long as you do your job and do not stick them with more work. Your family, the people you live with, may or may not care, but they have not kicked you out and do not seem to be planning to. You have not mentioned anyone you care about, so no worries there as far as I can see.

Get over yourself, my friend. The vast majority of people do not care about who you are or your back story. They want you to fill a function and that is it. As long as you can do that, you are pretty safe from people thinking about you at all

[Werel]

I just had a high school era friend randomly facebook me and tell me he was back in town and wanted to stop over for a little bit tomorrow before he leaves.

The feeling is so alien to me that I almost felt like shedding tears :/

That's really cool. I'm glad. Not that it's alien, but that it happened.

[bomaye]

That's the kind of thing that depression and self-esteem things can interfere with quite a lot. Are there any things that seem like they might be recognizable to you as value on paper even you don't feel it as value, and what do you think about having that without the feeling? Would that be worth some effort to you or not?

My Driver's License was kind of like that. I'm not sure if it's worth it or not because I can do a thing but I also kind of wish I never did it and only finished it because I started it and there was money and time already invested in it. Like it was more an external obligation than anything I value even though it's a thing that has a bit of value.

And what about the 'tangible change' part, do you have an idea what would count for that?

I dunno. Something I could see in the mirror or look at and go "This has made a difference in me thinking that I maybe just might be a person."

The specifics are probably fairly rare, but the problem in general of having a substantial gap that's hard to explain isn't.

Yeah, fair enough

No, I think you're seeing it as a much bigger flag than it is. I've mentioned that the last person we hired at my old workplace had a gap that was at least 5-6 years and could easily have been a decade or more, right? It happens.  Practice handling the question and focus on building resume-ables, it doesn't have to be as huge a thing as you're making it.

I just have a hard time seeing how it isn't a big thing, it's one of the reddest of non-illegal red flags

Get over yourself, my friend. The vast majority of people do not care about who you are or your back story. They want you to fill a function and that is it. As long as you can do that, you are pretty safe from people thinking about you at all

That'd be nice, but there's so many hours a day you're spending around these people that things are bound to come up, and the lack of these things is socially a red flag or something to mock or the first thing that comes to their mind if and when they see you if they find out.

[Enail]

And what about the 'tangible change' part, do you have an idea what would count for that?

I dunno. Something I could see in the mirror or look at and go "This has made a difference in me thinking that I maybe just might be a person."

So that's also about the internal effect, then, rather than something external in your situation?

No, I think you're seeing it as a much bigger flag than it is. I've mentioned that the last person we hired at my old workplace had a gap that was at least 5-6 years and could easily have been a decade or more, right? It happens.  Practice handling the question and focus on building resume-ables, it doesn't have to be as huge a thing as you're making it.

I just have a hard time seeing how it isn't a big thing, it's one of the reddest of non-illegal red flags

I dunno what to tell you, from what I've seen no-one really cares that much. It's a moment of ??, maybe some concern that it's concealing jobs you've been fired from, but it doesn't overrule the stuff they care about, which is whether you can show them a reason to think that you can and will do your work and that you won't be really difficult to work with (which is covered by being polite and reasonably friendly).

[bomaye]

So that's also about the internal effect, then, rather than something external in your situation?

I'm not sure what's being asked, then

I dunno what to tell you, from what I've seen no-one really cares that much. It's a moment of ??, maybe some concern that it's concealing jobs you've been fired from, but it doesn't overrule the stuff they care about, which is whether you can show them a reason to think that you can and will do your work and that you won't be really difficult to work with (which is covered by being polite and reasonably friendly).

I've gotten "What do you do all day?" "Better do something now or they won't want you later" (this was when I was in my early 20s), a "Lucky" and "Living the dream" from casual stuff. I'd only assume that on a resume, it would just be tossed away before an interview, but even an interview would be a kind [I hope I can find someone else, this is really sketchy]

[Enail]

So that's also about the internal effect, then, rather than something external in your situation?

I'm not sure what's being asked, then

Well, you said you didn't think it was possible to improve things for yourself enough to count for anything, with "enough" defined as "something that makes a tangible change or increases your value to yourself," so I'm asking what you would consider a tangible change. Is that also about your value to yourself?

I've gotten "What do you do all day?" "Better do something now or they won't want you later" (this was when I was in my early 20s), a "Lucky" and "Living the dream" from casual stuff. I'd only assume that on a resume, it would just be tossed away before an interview, but even an interview would be a kind [I hope I can find someone else, this is really sketchy]

Stop assuming things  The responses you're listing are from people you've interacted with socially, right, not potential employers? They're going to be looking at it from a different angle. And "better do something now or they won't want you later" is someone's speculation, not an information-based, accurate forecast. I'm not saying no one will ever toss away your resume for it or think you're sketchy, but that's not automatic at all. Try to de-emphasize it, sure, but it's not a giant, un-ignorable red flag, so this is a case where you need to use your problem-finding to overprepare for it, not to shut it down as impossible.

[bomaye]

Well, you said you didn't think it was possible to improve things for yourself enough to count for anything, with "enough" defined as "something that makes a tangible change or increases your value to yourself," so I'm asking what you would consider a tangible change. Is that also about your value to yourself?

I think it's something that's like... noticeably positive in a non-situational way? "I have this [whatever it is] now and it cannot be taken away from me."

Stop assuming things  The responses you're listing are from people you've interacted with socially, right, not potential employers? They're going to be looking at it from a different angle. And "better do something now or they won't want you later" is someone's speculation, not an information-based, accurate forecast. I'm not saying no one will ever toss away your resume for it or think you're sketchy, but that's not automatic at all. Try to de-emphasize it, sure, but it's not a giant, un-ignorable red flag, so this is a case where you need to use your problem-finding to overprepare for it, not to shut it down as impossible.

B-b-but when I assume... oh wait

[Enail]

I think it's something that's like... noticeably positive in a non-situational way? "I have this [whatever it is] now and it cannot be taken away from me."

I don't quite understand what kind of thing that would be, if it's not just inherent traits?

B-b-but when I assume... oh wait

[bomaye]

I don't quite understand what kind of thing that would be, if it's not just inherent traits?

Having a hard time putting it into words.

Like, I'm tall, so it doesn't really matter how you judge height or what you say about it because it's there and only something crazy like grievous injury is going to seriously affect it?

Also something I noticed, the last time I had a super-bad day I had as scraggly of a beard as I can manage and shaved it off and felt better and now this time I kind of cleaned my room and felt a bit better, so maybe OCD when the bad-day stuff is erupting :/

[Enail]

I don't quite understand what kind of thing that would be, if it's not just inherent traits?

Having a hard time putting it into words.

Like, I'm tall, so it doesn't really matter how you judge height or what you say about it because it's there and only something crazy like grievous injury is going to seriously affect it?

Is the same true for personal qualities and traits? Like, they're things that are sort of there, but also they're based on what you do, you put something into them to make them happen or be active traits? Someone might be inherently kind or intelligent or whatever, but if they don't act kind or use their intelligence it's only potential or theory, it's what they put of themselves into their actions that makes them real?  Or what about skills?

Also something I noticed, the last time I had a super-bad day I had as scraggly of a beard as I can manage and shaved it off and felt better and now this time I kind of cleaned my room and felt a bit better, so maybe OCD when the bad-day stuff is erupting :/

Oh yeah, doing something that's straightforwardly productive like that, and is maybe also a bit of looking after yourself, seems like a good potential mood-booster. Have you ever thought of keeping a list of things like that that can help when a bad mood hits, so you don't have to actively keep it all in mind, maybe even a list of cues to recognize more easily when there's a mood that that stuff could be useful for?

[bomaye]

Is the same true for personal qualities and traits? Like, they're things that are sort of there, but also they're based on what you do, you put something into them to make them happen or be active traits? Someone might be inherently kind or intelligent or whatever, but if they don't act kind or use their intelligence it's only potential or theory, it's what they put of themselves into their actions that makes them real?

Those can be taken away from you through negative judgments. Like I can sound smart and maybe pick up on some concepts or whatever quickly, but how smart can I be if I'm in the situation I am currently? Not very.

Or what about skills?

Those kind of don't matter unless you're making a lot of money doing it

Oh yeah, doing something that's straightforwardly productive like that, and is maybe also a bit of looking after yourself, seems like a good potential mood-booster. Have you ever thought of keeping a list of things like that that can help when a bad mood hits, so you don't have to actively keep it all in mind, maybe even a list of cues to recognize more easily when there's a mood that that stuff could be useful for?

It might just put it off too, I kind of feel like I may have another bad one at some point today. That's kind of why the recommended things like exercise or whatnot have never made sense to me for this kind of thing, it kind of seems like my brain needs to release sadness-steam once in awhile and anything to block it is a lid

[Enail]

Ugh, how annoying, my post crashed and I lost it.

Is the same true for personal qualities and traits? Like, they're things that are sort of there, but also they're based on what you do, you put something into them to make them happen or be active traits? Someone might be inherently kind or intelligent or whatever, but if they don't act kind or use their intelligence it's only potential or theory, it's what they put of themselves into their actions that makes them real?

Those can be taken away from you through negative judgments. Like I can sound smart and maybe pick up on some concepts or whatever quickly, but how smart can I be if I'm in the situation I am currently? Not very.

I don't think that makes sense. Smart is a good thing to have, but it doesn't magically make everything easy. So just because you're not where you want to be doesn't mean you're not smart. Traits are their own things whether or not they have some other thing with them.

And people are always going to have different opinions on things, that doesn't change the things themselves. If you enjoyed a movie and someone else didn't, that doesn't stop the things that made you enjoy it from being true, right?

Or what about skills?

Those kind of don't matter unless you're making a lot of money doing it

Does that apply to other people, you don't think their skills give them value unless it leads to money? So then money is one thing that gives people value to you? Is there anything else that you think gives value when you're looking at other people, or do you judge them solely by how much money they have?

Oh yeah, doing something that's straightforwardly productive like that, and is maybe also a bit of looking after yourself, seems like a good potential mood-booster. Have you ever thought of keeping a list of things like that that can help when a bad mood hits, so you don't have to actively keep it all in mind, maybe even a list of cues to recognize more easily when there's a mood that that stuff could be useful for?

It might just put it off too, I kind of feel like I may have another bad one at some point today. That's kind of why the recommended things like exercise or whatnot have never made sense to me for this kind of thing, it kind of seems like my brain needs to release sadness-steam once in awhile and anything to block it is a lid

I guess there's a fine line between blocking a feeling that needs to be let out and letting it out but finding ways to help it diffuse more easily or ride it out better, huh? What about more expression-oriented things, like journalling or punching pillows or expressive art? Doing something with the feeling maybe wouldn't block it the same way doing something separate from the feeling to boost your mood might, but could still have a bit of that 'doing a thing' lift?

[bomaye]

And people are always going to have different opinions on things, that doesn't change the things themselves. If you enjoyed a movie and someone else didn't, that doesn't stop the things that made you enjoy it from being true, right?

Yeah, but it also kind of sucks when you enjoy something (or are something) that not a lot of other people enjoy or care about

Does that apply to other people, you don't think their skills give them value unless it leads to money? So then money is one thing that gives people value to you? Is there anything else that you think gives value when you're looking at other people, or do you judge them solely by how much money they have?

No, I don't think that way about other people, I'm impressed by the things they do and stuff like that, but being a low-value unmanly man means I'm not really in a position to make judgements either way, and definitely in a position to be negatively judged on everything.

I guess there's a fine line between blocking a feeling that needs to be let out and letting it out but finding ways to help it diffuse more easily or ride it out better, huh? What about more expression-oriented things, like journalling or punching pillows or expressive art?

All things I've done before, it just kind of happens regardless

Doing something with the feeling maybe wouldn't block it the same way doing something separate from the feeling to boost your mood might, but could still have a bit of that 'doing a thing' lift?

I honestly don't know how to even "do" anything with the feeling. I've traditionally been a bottle-and-explode type, I have no idea how to do something different with it. I'm gonna hit up google

Edit: And Thought Catalog of all places already gets it :/

[Enail]

And people are always going to have different opinions on things, that doesn't change the things themselves. If you enjoyed a movie and someone else didn't, that doesn't stop the things that made you enjoy it from being true, right?

Yeah, but it also kind of sucks when you enjoy something (or are something) that not a lot of other people enjoy or care about

But does that mean you have to devalue them? Especially to yourself.

Does that apply to other people, you don't think their skills give them value unless it leads to money? So then money is one thing that gives people value to you? Is there anything else that you think gives value when you're looking at other people, or do you judge them solely by how much money they have?

No, I don't think that way about other people, I'm impressed by the things they do and stuff like that, but being a low-value unmanly man means I'm not really in a position to make judgements either way, and definitely in a position to be negatively judged on everything.

Okay, but you're talking about having value to yourself, so isn't your judgement the one that matters here? Why don't you judge yourself on the same criteria you use for other people?

Anyway, everyone can judge, including you, and you never know which judgements other people will take to heart, it could be yours.  

I guess there's a fine line between blocking a feeling that needs to be let out and letting it out but finding ways to help it diffuse more easily or ride it out better, huh? What about more expression-oriented things, like journalling or punching pillows or expressive art?

All things I've done before, it just kind of happens regardless

What happens regardless, that it blocks a feeling that needs to be let out and will be later, or that the moods happen to begin with, or those things don't have the mood-improving effects that cleaning-type things do?

Doing something with the feeling maybe wouldn't block it the same way doing something separate from the feeling to boost your mood might, but could still have a bit of that 'doing a thing' lift?

I honestly don't know how to even "do" anything with the feeling. I've traditionally been a bottle-and-explode type, I have no idea how to do something different with it. I'm gonna hit up google

Oh, I just meant expressing it with the stuff like journalling. But yeah googling stuff to try that might better suit is always good idea, it seems like maybe the best thing would be just having a lot of different options in your toolbox and experimenting with what's helpful when rather than there being one thing..

Edit: And Thought Catalog of all places already gets it

It's funny how often somewhere random like that does

[bomaye]

But does that mean you have to devalue them? Especially to yourself.

No, but it's easier to have holes poked in them when you don't have the ability to back it up?

Okay, but you're talking about having value to yourself, so isn't your judgement the one that matters here? Why don't you judge yourself on the same criteria you use for other people?

It's maybe something like how parents don't care what's up with everyone else's kids, but they hyper-care about their own?

Anyway, everyone can judge, including you, and you never know which judgements other people will take to heart, it could be yours.

I hope not :/

What happens regardless, that it blocks a feeling that needs to be let out and will be later, or that the moods happen to begin with, or those things don't have the mood-improving effects that cleaning-type things do?

That the moods happen and I think that stuff is going to come out anyways :/

[Werel]

Yeah, but it also kind of sucks when you enjoy something (or are something) that not a lot of other people enjoy or care about

You just need to become more of a snotty elitist hipster who takes great joy & power level boosts from the fact that their favorite things/people are enjoyed by relatively few others. I offer lessons in this at $9.99/hr.

No, I don't think that way about other people, I'm impressed by the things they do and stuff like that, but being a low-value unmanly man means I'm not really in a position to make judgements either way, and definitely in a position to be negatively judged on everything.

If you're acknowledging that you have more lenient/flexible standards for judging others than for judging yourself, wouldn't it be a short leap to acknowledging that others probably have more lenient/flexible/diverse standards for judgment than you're imagining? You keep coming back to this "low-value" idea, which relies on there being a single standard by which all people judge your worth in exactly the same way. But you don't judge people in the same way you assume they judge you; doesn't that itself mean that there's more than one yardstick, so it's impossible to say you have the same (low) worth in all observers' eyes?

tl;dr everybody values different things in others so it's silly to say you're "low-value" across the board

I guess there's a fine line between blocking a feeling that needs to be let out and letting it out but finding ways to help it diffuse more easily or ride it out better, huh? What about more expression-oriented things, like journalling or punching pillows or expressive art?

All things I've done before, it just kind of happens regardless

Might sound crazy, but: ever tried inducing those feelings and trying to experience them as hard as you can? Wring 'em out, on purpose, till they're dry? This helped me a bit with grief: intentionally set aside some time to go balls-to-the-wall grief pain and cry my face off, until I'd exhausted the supply for a bit and could go about my day without that boiling-kettle-lid feeling under the surface.

[Enail]

Pretty much what Werel said.

But does that mean you have to devalue them? Especially to yourself.

No, but it's easier to have holes poked in them when you don't have the ability to back it up?

Right now you're poking the holes in them yourself. All the back-up in the world can't defend you from that.

If what you want is value to yourself, what other people are going to think or do isn't the part to focus on. Yes, it can make it harder to believe in the value of something if other people don't, so I see why it matters, but ultimately, you're doing the judging, and anything you get from other people is going to be filtered through that harsh judgement you're putting on yourself.  

Anyway, everyone can judge, including you, and you never know which judgements other people will take to heart, it could be yours.

I hope not

Everyone gets affected by the opinions of other people sometimes, you're included in "other people", you know With great power comes great responsibility and all that.

What happens regardless, that it blocks a feeling that needs to be let out and will be later, or that the moods happen to begin with, or those things don't have the mood-improving effects that cleaning-type things do?

That the moods happen and I think that stuff is going to come out anyways

That's okay. I mean, I know it's not exactly fun, and I'm sorry you have to deal with that, but that seems like it might just be how these things work, and the goal's got to be to find ways to reduce them and  ease them and to ride them out. If the moods happen, that's not failure.

[bomaye]

You just need to become more of a snotty elitist hipster who takes great joy & power level boosts from the fact that their favorite things/people are enjoyed by relatively few others. I offer lessons in this at $9.99/hr.

I went through a kind of phase like that. It was kinda lonely

(Even though I also watched a lot more hockey at the time, which is the exact opposite of hipster around here <_<)

If you're acknowledging that you have more lenient/flexible standards for judging others than for judging yourself, wouldn't it be a short leap to acknowledging that others probably have more lenient/flexible/diverse standards for judgment than you're imagining? You keep coming back to this "low-value" idea, which relies on there being a single standard by which all people judge your worth in exactly the same way. But you don't judge people in the same way you assume they judge you; doesn't that itself mean that there's more than one yardstick, so it's impossible to say you have the same (low) worth in all observers' eyes?

tl;dr everybody values different things in others so it's silly to say you're "low-value" across the board

No, I know that judgements and judgments (neither spelling triggers the spell-check ) are not all made equal and not everyone reacts to this or that, but you can't defend against the biggest judges without having something to back it up. And if you can't back it up, then you're wrong and they're right

Might sound crazy, but: ever tried inducing those feelings and trying to experience them as hard as you can? Wring 'em out, on purpose, till they're dry? This helped me a bit with grief: intentionally set aside some time to go balls-to-the-wall grief pain and cry my face off, until I'd exhausted the supply for a bit and could go about my day without that boiling-kettle-lid feeling under the surface.

I have, but I've locked down so hard on things that it's really tough going to try to force it out because I'm so used to holding it in there. Then I have to try to think even darker thoughts to force myself into being sad or something to let them out, and then it desensitizes to those actual thoughts, which is kind of messed up in its own way because it's stuff that should be bothersome in the first place

Right now you're poking the holes in them yourself. All the back-up in the world can't defend you from that.

Heading them off at the pass

If what you want is value to yourself, what other people are going to think or do isn't the part to focus on. Yes, it can make it harder to believe in the value of something if other people don't, so I see why it matters, but ultimately, you're doing the judging, and anything you get from other people is going to be filtered through that harsh judgement you're putting on yourself.

I get affected too easily then.

That's okay. I mean, I know it's not exactly fun, and I'm sorry you have to deal with that, but that seems like it might just be how these things work, and the goal's got to be to find ways to reduce them and ease them and to ride them out. If the moods happen, that's not failure.

Yup

[Enail]

Right now you're poking the holes in them yourself. All the back-up in the world can't defend you from that.

Heading them off at the pass

But that means that as long as you believe there might be something to head off at the pass, you'll poke those holes, so you're setting the conditions for "increase your value to yourself" to impossible, because there's always the potential for someone else to judge negatively no matter how awesome and well-liked and whatever else a person may be.

So it seems like if you want to improve things for yourself in a way that feels meaningful, you'll either need to find ways to not automatically and preemptively burn your fields to the ground to starve out the enemy that may or may not someday show up, or you'll need to come up with some criteria for "improvement" that don't rest entirely on something you're not willing to risk thinking in case someone else disagrees with it.

If what you want is value to yourself, what other people are going to think or do isn't the part to focus on. Yes, it can make it harder to believe in the value of something if other people don't, so I see why it matters, but ultimately, you're doing the judging, and anything you get from other people is going to be filtered through that harsh judgement you're putting on yourself.

I get affected too easily then.

You get affected by some things. If someone says something good about you, you manage pretty well not to be heavily affected by that  So that suggests you do have the ability to filter out opinions from outside, it's just being employed right now to protect you from good opinions rather than hurtful ones.  

[Werel]

So it seems like if you want to improve things for yourself in a way that feels meaningful, you'll either need to find ways to not automatically and preemptively burn your fields to the ground to starve out the enemy that may or may not someday show up, or you'll need to come up with some criteria for "improvement" that don't rest entirely on something you're not willing to risk thinking in case someone else disagrees with it.

BOOM. Yes. This. Especially the last part: fear of any potential disapproval is crippling because someone will disapprove of literally anything you do.

I think what you might mean by "something to back it up" is something along the lines of:

Person: "[Negative judgment of some trait or action of yours]"
You: "Yeah, well, at least I [X], so your judgment doesn't bring my self-conception down around my ears"

So you're saying you need something(s) to fill the X slot, right? Something that provides a mental place to retreat in comfort when under attack?

When someone criticizes a person you respect or love, what's your go-to defense of them? That they're smart? Kind? Funny? Ethical? Skilled? Is there any defense you'd deploy on behalf of a friend where that [X] could apply to you? Your standards for self-judgment seem so out of whack relative to other-judgment that maybe you'd have an easier time defending yourself mentally if you went about it in the same way you go about defending others from unfair/unkind judgments.

Either way, you gotta find an [X], and like Enail said, that's tough to do if your defenses are extremely effective against any positive input. Place to start: accepting good things people say?

I have, but I've locked down so hard on things that it's really tough going to try to force it out because I'm so used to holding it in there. Then I have to try to think even darker thoughts to force myself into being sad or something to let them out, and then it desensitizes to those actual thoughts, which is kind of messed up in its own way because it's stuff that should be bothersome in the first place

You're probably not down with hippie shit, but sometimes all it takes to open the floodgates is clearing the debris out of the way, rather than sticking an emotional finger down the throat. Mindfulness meditation of the sort where you sit still and quiet, you don't think, and you just keep checking in minute-to-minute on what you're feeling and accepting that experience, can dredge up a lot of stuff for airing out. I use the phrase "sit with it" sarcastically like 99% of the time, but in this case, just seriously try sitting with it. If nothing comes, nothing comes. If it does, let it, and try not to be too scared to let it wash over you till it's done. Forcing emotion is tough, but just opening the door to it semi-regularly is not.

PS The correct spelling is "judgment," even for filthy Canadians

[Enail]

...what about clean Canadians?

[Werel]

Clean Canadians spell it joudgemeant.

[bomaye]

But that means that as long as you believe there might be something to head off at the pass, you'll poke those holes, so you're setting the conditions for "increase your value to yourself" to impossible, because there's always the potential for someone else to judge negatively no matter how awesome and well-liked and whatever else a person may be.

So it seems like if you want to improve things for yourself in a way that feels meaningful, you'll either need to find ways to not automatically and preemptively burn your fields to the ground to starve out the enemy that may or may not someday show up, or you'll need to come up with some criteria for "improvement" that don't rest entirely on something you're not willing to risk thinking in case someone else disagrees with it.

How do you guys do it?

Judgment by others is inevitable. It is just how people are. You can not be whatever "normal" is (having a job? having a family? having both? having money? what if you obtain money by nonroutine means, are you still "normal"?) and be judged. You can also have whatever" normal " is and be judged as "sheeple", " a drone", "a conformist", etc.. I know this rather well because many people judge me an idiot and a failure for going to school so long and working in a field that pays so little. Others judge me for having no family. Others judge me for having a "cushy" office job. And still others judge me for working in and supporting such a flawed system, rather than fighting to overturn it. Others think working at all is for suckers. And I am sure there are more that I have not heard yet.

Like, this thing from reboot, a lot of these sound like someone was trying to insult her but it was backwards day and a bunch of really nice compliments came out instead.

You get affected by some things. If someone says something good about you, you manage pretty well not to be heavily affected by that  So that suggests you do have the ability to filter out opinions from outside, it's just being employed right now to protect you from good opinions rather than hurtful ones.  

It kinda registers are threatening, "I'm being set up for something, when's the other shoe going to drop."

BOOM. Yes. This. Especially the last part: fear of any potential disapproval is crippling because someone will disapprove of literally anything you do.

I think what you might mean by "something to back it up" is something along the lines of:

Person: "[Negative judgment of some trait or action of yours]"
You: "Yeah, well, at least I [X], so your judgment doesn't bring my self-conception down around my ears"

So you're saying you need something(s) to fill the X slot, right? Something that provides a mental place to retreat in comfort when under attack?

Yeah, pretty much.

A poor person's judgment doesn't matter to a rich person because the latter doesn't need to care about the former. Or a UFC Heavyweight Champ ain't gonna give a shit what anyone says about him because he knows he could physically destroy them if he needs to (okay not totally, but the mindset).

When someone criticizes a person you respect or love, what's your go-to defense of them? That they're smart? Kind? Funny? Ethical? Skilled? Is there any defense you'd deploy on behalf of a friend where that [X] could apply to you? Your standards for self-judgment seem so out of whack relative to other-judgment that maybe you'd have an easier time defending yourself mentally if you went about it in the same way you go about defending others from unfair/unkind judgments.

My defense for them is to attack the other person as savagely as possible and tear them down with harsh joudgremeantes <_<

Either way, you gotta find an [X], and like Enail said, that's tough to do if your defenses are extremely effective against any positive input. Place to start: accepting good things people say?

"Why are they saying this thing, their judgment-makers must be broken or something bad is about to happen  "

You're probably not down with hippie shit, but sometimes all it takes to open the floodgates is clearing the debris out of the way, rather than sticking an emotional finger down the throat. Mindfulness meditation of the sort where you sit still and quiet, you don't think, and you just keep checking in minute-to-minute on what you're feeling and accepting that experience, can dredge up a lot of stuff for airing out. I use the phrase "sit with it" sarcastically like 99% of the time, but in this case, just seriously try sitting with it. If nothing comes, nothing comes. If it does, let it, and try not to be too scared to let it wash over you till it's done. Forcing emotion is tough, but just opening the door to it semi-regularly is not.

Something to do later tonight when I can't sleep, I guess

[Enail]

So it seems like if you want to improve things for yourself in a way that feels meaningful, you'll either need to find ways to not automatically and preemptively burn your fields to the ground to starve out the enemy that may or may not someday show up, or you'll need to come up with some criteria for "improvement" that don't rest entirely on something you're not willing to risk thinking in case someone else disagrees with it.

How do you guys do it?

Well, I'm okay with thinking good things about myself, so that's not really something I have to "do".  

But for judgements, some people's opinions matter more to me than others. Something coming from someone I like or respect is more important than something from someone I don't think much of. If I think they generally have good judgement, their opinion is worth more. If they know a lot about the thing they're saying about me, it's going to matter more than if they're just some random person who doesn't know anything about it. That kind of thing?  It doesn't make criticism or insults from people whose opinions don't matter much not hurt, but it makes them hurt a lot less.  And vice-versa with compliments.

For you, maybe a way to approach it would be "if they were saying this thing about someone else, how much weight would I give that?" If they said "So-and-so? Oh, they're really cool" or "ugh, they're kind of a dumbass," how much would that affect your starting opinion of So-and-so (assuming they're a stranger to you or someone you don't know well)

You get affected by some things. If someone says something good about you, you manage pretty well not to be heavily affected by that  So that suggests you do have the ability to filter out opinions from outside, it's just being employed right now to protect you from good opinions rather than hurtful ones.  

It kinda registers are threatening, "I'm being set up for something, when's the other shoe going to drop."

But if someone goes ahead and drops the other shoe right from the start, that doesn't register as threatening?

When someone criticizes a person you respect or love, what's your go-to defense of them? That they're smart? Kind? Funny? Ethical? Skilled? Is there any defense you'd deploy on behalf of a friend where that [X] could apply to you? Your standards for self-judgment seem so out of whack relative to other-judgment that maybe you'd have an easier time defending yourself mentally if you went about it in the same way you go about defending others from unfair/unkind judgments.

My defense for them is to attack the other person as savagely as possible and tear them down with harsh joudgremeantes <_<

  But what triggers that reaction, what do you think about them that makes you feel it's worth defending them on that judgement?

ETA: Also, doesn't that mean that your judgements do have some weight to other people? Doesn't that suggest that if you had a good opinion of yourself, it would deserve to be given some weight against other people's?

(also, Werel, you were totally lying. Oxford Canadian gives judgement as the preferred spelling!   )

Either way, you gotta find an [X], and like Enail said, that's tough to do if your defenses are extremely effective against any positive input. Place to start: accepting good things people say?

"Why are they saying this thing, their judgment-makers must be broken or something bad is about to happen  "

The "judgement-makers must be broken" part, you can check against other information you have about their judgement. And couldn't you bring up those same defences against negative things? Why are they saying it, could they have an ulterior motive, like making you feel bad or lowering you in relation to them so they feel better? And how would they know, are they even someone whose judgement is trustworthy?

[Wondering]

Off-topic aside:

Merriam-Webster lists "judgement" as an accepted variant. So while "judgment" is heavily preferred, "judgement" isn't incorrect.

(Says the person who's always spelling it "judgement" because why do we drop the E? That makes no sense. )

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