Re: The fear of "Too Late"

[Enail]

I didn't mean you should do it here!  But when I think about 'inner bulletproofness,' it's kind of about being able to feel like the things you value have worth even when the people around you don't value them, having some kind of other framework you can judge things by instead (or more realistically, as well as, because bulletproof is rarely a 100% thing, it's just one tool for defence). That's how it's worked for me, at least.

And I just realized I completely failed to say what I was actually trying to say. It's not that if people judge you negatively you should argue against it, it's that when you're in argument mode, you'll argue against anything, good, bad, something you yourself said earlier, right? You can reject anything coming in from the outside. Which kind of sounds like a really strong mental shield, it sounds quite a lot like "bulletproof." If that's the case, if you can find a way to turn the shield on on its own, that might be something pretty powerful you could use to protect yourself internally from negative judgements.

[bomaye]

And I just realized I completely failed to say what I was actually trying to say. It's not that if people judge you negatively you should argue against it, it's that when you're in argument mode, you'll argue against anything, good, bad, something you yourself said earlier, right? You can reject anything coming in from the outside. Which kind of sounds like a really strong mental shield, it sounds quite a lot like "bulletproof." If that's the case, if you can find a way to turn the shield on on its own, that might be something pretty powerful you could use to protect yourself internally from negative judgements.

That kind of thing doesn't stop negative judgments completely, which that's the biggest primary aim. "Just take it" or "turn the other cheek" is how you keep getting it.

Some more leaked out last night and I had a horrific nightmare after I went to sleep. Who am I doing this for again?

That bolded bit is a very good question. Who ARE you doing this for?

In my opinion, if you are not doing it for yourself (or at least primarily for yourself), then do not do it.

It's because it's a normal person's world, and I might want options that flow through their world one day, and will probably need them to survive in it at some point.

If it's just for me, I wouldn't care one bit. Any kind of regular contentedness or the nice things feels like it's mostly already out on account of not-being-like-them, so survival and passing the time in a way that doesn't suck and both of those might not be lasting things as they are now

[Enail]

That kind of thing doesn't stop negative judgments completely, which that's the biggest primary aim. "Just take it" or "turn the other cheek" is how you keep getting it.

I'd think you'd need both. External strategies to stave off judgement and/or shut it down if it happens, but also internal ways to make it less devastating if it does happen. Everyone gets negative judgements sometimes, so you're not going to be able to guarantee you won't get any, so you need to be able to reduce the impact both on your situation and on your emotions.

[Werel]

The flip side of ideal-conforming is that positive judgments can arise from being weighted against negative ideals; people can expect the worst from a person with X characteristics and be pleased when they find something better.

I think that's more just giving someone the benefit of the doubt, which isn't always a great thing to do either :/

Nah, benefit of the doubt is “I haven’t yet seen evidence that you have Bad Trait, so I’ll assume you don’t.” This is more like “I figured I’d find Bad Trait here, but have instead seen evidence that you don’t have it; what a pleasant surprise.” Cultivating those moments by culling various Bad Traits can gain you a fair bit of traction socially—disarming people by exceeding their expectations can sometimes be more powerful than just having the kind of stuff that amps up their expectations right off the bat (looks, money, prestige, etc.)

"We are stuck in this same place regularly for some reason so we might as well make it fun. And then when personal conditions change, it will go away.”

That’s a pretty daggone bleak view of friendship, and one which begs the question of why you think “having lots of friends” would be a value-added thing for you. Status, purely? Same for other stuff: can you separate the stuff you want for its own sake from the stuff you want just for status?

Cause I get wanting the thing you feel you’ve never had, but status-chasing usually ends up being a hollow pursuit even for people who you’d consider “high-status."

If it's just for me, I wouldn't care one bit. Any kind of regular contentedness or the nice things feels like it's mostly already out on account of not-being-like-them, so survival and passing the time in a way that doesn't suck and both of those might not be lasting things as they are now

Yep-- if you don’t actually want to crack open that pop bottle of crappy emotions for your own sake, then don’t. It’s painful and unpleasant in a more concentrated way than having crappy emotions on a low boil at all times. But if you do want to flow through normal-world options, and have the internal reserves of effort and resilience to do so, having a boatload of barely-repressed despair isn’t going to help much.

That kind of thing doesn't stop negative judgments completely, which that's the biggest primary aim. "Just take it" or "turn the other cheek" is how you keep getting it.

You know this, but the other way you keep getting it is by going to its house. Aka most online places. Whoever said you let in a lot of bad stuff via the internet is probably pretty right.You ever try cutting down the amount of headspace you give to internet discourse for a couple days and see where it leaves you?

Sorry there's so much rough shit in there to dredge up.

[bomaye]

I'd think you'd need both. External strategies to stave off judgement and/or shut it down if it happens, but also internal ways to make it less devastating if it does happen. Everyone gets negative judgements sometimes, so you're not going to be able to guarantee you won't get any, so you need to be able to reduce the impact both on your situation and on your emotions.

Yeahhh, by having a thing that I can go "I have this thing, so it doesn't matter what you say"

That’s a pretty daggone bleak view of friendship, and one which begs the question of why you think “having lots of friends” would be a value-added thing for you. Status, purely? Same for other stuff: can you separate the stuff you want for its own sake from the stuff you want just for status?

They back each other up and that's how you get ahead, apparently.

And that's also generally how my friendships have gone, once that connecting place that keeps us in close contact is gone, so's the friendship.

Cause I get wanting the thing you feel you’ve never had, but status-chasing usually ends up being a hollow pursuit even for people who you’d consider “high-status."

"If I'm going to be unhappy either way, it's probably better to be unhappy with that stuff than not"

Yep-- if you don’t actually want to crack open that pop bottle of crappy emotions for your own sake, then don’t. It’s painful and unpleasant in a more concentrated way than having crappy emotions on a low boil at all times. But if you do want to flow through normal-world options, and have the internal reserves of effort and resilience to do so, having a boatload of barely-repressed despair isn’t going to help much.

Welp

You know this, but the other way you keep getting it is by going to its house. Aka most online places. Whoever said you let in a lot of bad stuff via the internet is probably pretty right.You ever try cutting down the amount of headspace you give to internet discourse for a couple days and see where it leaves you?

Alone

Sorry there's so much rough shit in there to dredge up.

Nah, it's cool, it's stuff that was going to come out eventually anyways, that's how bottling things up works

[Enail]

I'd think you'd need both. External strategies to stave off judgement and/or shut it down if it happens, but also internal ways to make it less devastating if it does happen. Everyone gets negative judgements sometimes, so you're not going to be able to guarantee you won't get any, so you need to be able to reduce the impact both on your situation and on your emotions.

Yeahhh, by having a thing that I can go "I have this thing, so it doesn't matter what you say"

I think that's a good thing to have, but I don't think you should be looking at it as a One True Solution. I don't think many people have a thing that they feel so good about that it can serve as the entirety of their defence against judgement on all fronts, I'd say it's more likely to be a touchstone that can act as one part of a multi-pronged defence, along with mental shields, other touchstones and emotional resilience.

And you're awfully good at finding reasons that "this thing" doesn't count or that you don't really have it, so for a "this thing" to work for you that way, you're going to need to disarm your auto-attack a little. And until you get something that you'd consider enough to be a "this thing," (and doubly so if you don't actually know what would), the more in the way of internal defense you can get working, the easier it will be to work towards that thing.

[Werel]

I think that's a good thing to have, but I don't think you should be looking at it as a One True Solution. I don't think many people have a thing that they feel so good about that it can serve as the entirety of their defence against judgement on all fronts, I'd say it's more likely to be a touchstone that can act as one part of a multi-pronged defence, along with mental shields, other touchstones and emotional resilience.

And you're awfully good at finding reasons that "this thing" doesn't count or that you don't really have it, so for a "this thing" to work for you that way, you're going to need to disarm your auto-attack a little.

Yup to all this.

And that's also generally how my friendships have gone, once that connecting place that keeps us in close contact is gone, so's the friendship.

Is that a thing you'd like to go differently and/or bat around ways to maybe change the pattern? Or are you pretty much cool with your friendships being transient and circumstantial?

Alone

Nah I didn't mean "stop engaging with all internets;" if you've got online friends/communities who are cool and helpful and don't make you feel like shit, don't cut that out. More like "don't read the comments." Don't take a dip in the swampy areas. Don't go to places where people go to just wallow and rage. I think you know what I'm getting at, right? Even though I'm not saying it very clearly at all?

[bomaye]

So apparently it's a common thing for nightmares to happen after starting this feelio thing, or I guess it's closer to meditating. A way of your brain flushing stuff out that you're body is gripping to tightly. Maybe I'll keep it up.

I think that's a good thing to have, but I don't think you should be looking at it as a One True Solution. I don't think many people have a thing that they feel so good about that it can serve as the entirety of their defence against judgement on all fronts, I'd say it's more likely to be a touchstone that can act as one part of a multi-pronged defence, along with mental shields, other touchstones and emotional resilience.

I have a hard time seeing the "grass is always greener" part of this, really. Because that grass kind of is greener, you can more easily dismiss others on account of not really needing them anyway because you have "other thing" <.<

And you're awfully good at finding reasons that "this thing" doesn't count or that you don't really have it, so for a "this thing" to work for you that way, you're going to need to disarm your auto-attack a little. And until you get something that you'd consider enough to be a "this thing," (and doubly so if you don't actually know what would), the more in the way of internal defense you can get working, the easier it will be to work towards that thing.

Nyeahhh, but if they're things I already have, they're things I've had for quite awhile already that haven't really gotten me anywhere. Not very useful things

Is that a thing you'd like to go differently and/or bat around ways to maybe change the pattern? Or are you pretty much cool with your friendships being transient and circumstantial?

That is how it goes regardless what I think about it.

Nah I didn't mean "stop engaging with all internets;" if you've got online friends/communities who are cool and helpful and don't make you feel like shit, don't cut that out. More like "don't read the comments." Don't take a dip in the swampy areas. Don't go to places where people go to just wallow and rage. I think you know what I'm getting at, right? Even though I'm not saying it very clearly at all?

Oh, yeah, I did unsubscribe and not take part on a few things the last few days. Maybe a notch or two feeling better.

[Enail]

I think that's a good thing to have, but I don't think you should be looking at it as a One True Solution. I don't think many people have a thing that they feel so good about that it can serve as the entirety of their defence against judgement on all fronts, I'd say it's more likely to be a touchstone that can act as one part of a multi-pronged defence, along with mental shields, other touchstones and emotional resilience.

I have a hard time seeing the "grass is always greener" part of this, really. Because that grass kind of is greener, you can more easily dismiss others on account of not really needing them anyway because you have "other thing" <.<

I'm not sure I'm understanding you at all, do you mean I'm saying the grass isn't actually greener if you have "other thing?" Because I'm not, I do think having something like that is helpful, I just think you're overestimating how much it can do on its own.

It's not that easy for most people to feel they don't need whoever regardless of what they've got, and if they can do it (somewhat, I doubt there's anyone out there who can be totally untouched by all criticism and rejection), there's more going into it than just having the thing. So if you just expect it to shield you without building up any internal support for that shield, you might find it doesn't work that well until you do.

And you're awfully good at finding reasons that "this thing" doesn't count or that you don't really have it, so for a "this thing" to work for you that way, you're going to need to disarm your auto-attack a little. And until you get something that you'd consider enough to be a "this thing," (and doubly so if you don't actually know what would), the more in the way of internal defense you can get working, the easier it will be to work towards that thing.

Nyeahhh, but if they're things I already have, they're things I've had for quite awhile already that haven't really gotten me anywhere. Not very useful things

Again, this is the difference between the shield and the ability to use it. Very few things get you anywhere on their own, even if they open up possibilities; if it's a car, you've still got to drive it. Even if what you've got now feels like a cardboard shield to you, practicing with it will help you build the skills to use that real shield when you get it, so that you don't just land up seeing it as another not-useful thing because it isn't somehow getting you somewhere.

[bomaye]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you at all, do you mean I'm saying the grass isn't actually greener if you have "other thing?" Because I'm not, I do think having something like that is helpful, I just think you're overestimating how much it can do on its own.

It's not that easy for most people to feel they don't need whoever regardless of what they've got, and if they can do it (somewhat, I doubt there's anyone out there who can be totally untouched by all criticism and rejection), there's more going into it than just having the thing. So if you just expect it to shield you without building up any internal support for that shield, you might find it doesn't work that well until you do.

I think you're like, underestimating what having nothing to point back to, especially as a guy is like. There's no point of value that can be retorted with if you're a guy who has not much of anything, so if someone decides to dropkick you in the shields, they'll bust down pretty easy because there's no real response. Kind of a power thing. The UFC Champion could just knock them out, DNL could just have sex with their girlfriends (or work his charm and have sex with them if they are woman), someone with money could just be like "whoops, my ears were plugged by these rolls of bills."

All's I've really got is like "I'm probably taller than you are" and "I might have a little brain power (please ignore that I don't use it, thank you, that was kind)"

Again, this is the difference between the shield and the ability to use it. Very few things get you anywhere on their own, even if they open up possibilities; if it's a car, you've still got to drive it. Even if what you've got now feels like a cardboard shield to you, practicing with it will help you build the skills to use that real shield when you get it, so that you don't just land up seeing it as another not-useful thing because it isn't somehow getting you somewhere.

And on the flipside, you do have to have the aptitude for it. Just being able to drive doesn't mean you'll be a good driver. That's why I dismiss some traits, because something like "I can pass tests in a class" actually costs money instead of makes, whereas "being socially acceptable and/or convincing people to take you over someone else" is something that I don't have the aptitude

---

Wait actually, I think I figured out how to say it, using something I do have:

So, brain-smarts. I have some of those. There are people much smarter than I am, and much more accomplished than I am, and people who understand cosmic forces or programming languages or mathematical concepts or other technical detail-type things that I may not ever be able to comprehend. However I still understand what being smart as just a trait is about. I can be talked down to or talked to like someone is speaking over my head or have someone much smarter than me in comparison think I'm dumb, but I have enough of it where the dick measuring is off by like an inch or two, "whotf cares?"

Now not-smart people, or people who have to study and memorize harder than I do to retain new concepts, or however you want to say "less-smart-than-me" they just see smart as like "that's a thing that means you can make more money with" or "that elitist thing." It's not a trait that's intrinsically valuable so much as a means to a better end or some kind of "you think you're better than me" challenge. So if you're not using that means to an end, you either must not be that thing or "wtf, why are you not using that means to an end." There's no real way to shield because they're not coming at your trait, they're coming at the application or evidence of it. So you need something else that they understand to fend it off.

[reboot]

So I am one of those not smart people who has to work hard to pass tests, hence why my high school attendance sucked and I spent a good chunk of it in detention for ditching class, and you are very wrong about how people like me see smart people. We envy you for being able to do something so much more easily than us. Any judgement you might get is more, "You have this talent that I don't have and you did NOTHING with it? My hell, if I had your brains I could have done $insert accomplishment. Why the fuck was that ability wasted on someone who did not use it? That is so unfair!"

[bomaye]

so much as a means to a better end

I did mention that part

Also aren't you a programmer or something? You could smart circles around me with that stuff

[Enail]

Okay, I get what you're saying, but I think you're still missing my point. Having something to point to might be necessary (I have some quibbles, but let's take it as agreed), but it's not sufficient.

Most 'things' that people have are not all-powerful, universally-recognized, clearly defined and possessed, and unarguable - most people are not UFC world champion or a billionaire, what they've got is more likely to be something a little vague, like the "I have book-smarts" or something more middle-range, like "hey, I placed well in my regional amateur MMA tournament," or something that is not always recognized as valuable by everyone, like a degree in something obscure. Ask a successful author of children's picture books how many times they've been asked when they're going to write a "real book."

You're probably not going to have an insta-win thing like UFC world champion (not b/c you can't be successful or achieve things, just because very few people have those). So you'll need to be able to back it up with the confidence that whatever things you get are meaningful and worthwhile even if the person you're talking to doesn't think much of them, and that you have earned them and are genuinely good enough to have them, and not find ways to dismiss them or poke holes in them. Even if you've got a good, sturdy shield, if you tend to let it drop a little when someone gives it a good hit or if you pick at it from the underside until it has weak spots, it's not going to do you as much good as you want.

[reboot]

so much as a means to a better end

I did mention that part

Also aren't you a programmer or something? You could smart circles around me with that stuff

Nope. I work in refugee relief services/humanitarian aid (I am one of those people other people make fun of for going to school so long for lower pay than a plumber). I have very minimal programming skills, mostly databases and statistics programs. If I was someone like you, who learned things quickly, I would probably speak French, Arabic, Turkish and Farsi by now (been trying to pick up all of them for years), school would have taken less of a toll on my mental/emotional health and personal life, my grades sure as hell would have been higher so my scholarships and graduate student postings would have been more $$ - meaning I would not have had to work outside school so much, I would probably get up to speed on work faster meaning I might be able to work shorter days, etc..

[Werel]

So apparently it's a common thing for nightmares to happen after starting this feelio thing, or I guess it's closer to meditating. A way of your brain flushing stuff out that you're body is gripping to tightly. Maybe I'll keep it up.

Yeah, that can happen. Cool that it seems to be dislodging things, if that's what you set out to do.

I think you're like, underestimating what having nothing to point back to, especially as a guy is like. There's no point of value that can be retorted with if you're a guy who has not much of anything, so if someone decides to dropkick you in the shields, they'll bust down pretty easy because there's no real response.

Sorry if I'm reading this wrong, but I'm gonna go out on a limb with this defenses thing: I get running with dudes who like to bust on each other. That is most of my life experience (and I say "dudes" consciously, because I think you're mostly talking about defense against male people here). It can be fun and it can legitimately drive people to improve themselves/stop acting like buttheads, because some pointed teasing is the right tonic for some folks. But:

a) after a while, you gotta filter out the people who do nothing but bust on you, because their presence in your life will make you exhaustingly hyper-focused on your shields. Culling those people from my friend circle, the ones who only feel like they're winning or having fun if their opponent is doubled up in pain, has left me a bunch of notches less self-doubting and anxious.

and b) you gotta take a harder look at the people whose shields seem legitimately impenetrable. In my experience, the dude who nobody can get mad/really tear down is the dude who doesn't necessarily have Socially Sanctioned Things to point to--he just feels okay about his life (regardless of what it actually is, e.g. no job, no skills, no money, but sanguine and accepting of it) and is a good friend in between landing sick burns. He pays back playful antagonism in kind, but exists on other interpersonal planes as well (mutual support, generosity, thoughtfulness, consideration), and I think that's the key thing. When the only social headspace you occupy is the busting-on-each-other one, it's easy to feel really torn down by it, because YOU EXIST HERE. When you have other interpersonal modes/mindsets to go to, when you spend more of your time interacting in ways that aren't just about jockeying for status or tearing people down/defending against teardowns, you have a better-furnished place in your head to retreat to when under attack. Spending more time in those modes can be one of the Things you can point to, both internally and externally (no comeback is as powerful as your antagonist actually kinda liking/having had positive interactions with you). When all your eggs are in Win the Fight basket, it's actually easier to lose the fight by getting all your eggs smashed up, rather than distributing a bunch of your eggs into Other Kinds of Interactions baskets. If that makes... any sense at all.

[bomaye]

Okay, I get what you're saying, but I think you're still missing my point. Having something to point to might be necessary (I have some quibbles, but let's take it as agreed), but it's not sufficient.

Most 'things' that people have are not all-powerful, universally-recognized, clearly defined and possessed, and unarguable - most people are not UFC world champion or a billionaire, what they've got is more likely to be something a little vague, like the "I have book-smarts" or something more middle-range, like "hey, I placed well in my regional amateur MMA tournament," or something that is not always recognized as valuable by everyone, like a degree in something obscure. Ask a successful author of children's picture books how many times they've been asked when they're going to write a "real book."

You're probably not going to have an insta-win thing like UFC world champion (not b/c you can't be successful or achieve things, just because very few people have those). So you'll need to be able to back it up with the confidence that whatever things you get are meaningful and worthwhile even if the person you're talking to doesn't think much of them, and that you have earned them and are genuinely good enough to have them, and not find ways to dismiss them or poke holes in them. Even if you've got a good, sturdy shield, if you tend to let it drop a little when someone gives it a good hit or if you pick at it from the underside until it has weak spots, it's not going to do you as much good as you want.

Universal recognition doesn't matter as much as it's just a thing that can't be taken away, and it's recognized enough. Normal people rule the world, not having one of those things that they recognize as an accomplishment, even if they say "well, you could do better" or "hurr de hurr but it's not [that]" is basically a social death sentence.

If I was someone like you, who learned things quickly, I would probably speak French, Arabic, Turkish and Farsi by now (been trying to pick up all of them for years), school would have taken less of a toll on my mental/emotional health and personal life, my grades sure as hell would have been higher so my scholarships and graduate student postings would have been more $$ - meaning I would not have had to work outside school so much, I would probably get up to speed on work faster meaning I might be able to work shorter days, etc..

I think you're overestimating the kind of brain I have, I learned French for like 5 years and only retain some basic words and phrases :p

Otherwise, I'd trade positions if I could. Being "someone like me" is a detriment more than it is a help.

and b) you gotta take a harder look at the people whose shields seem legitimately impenetrable. In my experience, the dude who nobody can get mad/really tear down is the dude who doesn't necessarily have Socially Sanctioned Things to point to--he just feels okay about his life (regardless of what it actually is, e.g. no job, no skills, no money, but sanguine and accepting of it) and is a good friend in between landing sick burns. He pays back playful antagonism in kind, but exists on other interpersonal planes as well (mutual support, generosity, thoughtfulness, consideration), and I think that's the key thing. When the only social headspace you occupy is the busting-on-each-other one, it's easy to feel really torn down by it, because YOU EXIST HERE. When you have other interpersonal modes/mindsets to go to, when you spend more of your time interacting in ways that aren't just about jockeying for status or tearing people down/defending against teardowns, you have a better-furnished place in your head to retreat to when under attack. Spending more time in those modes can be one of the Things you can point to, both internally and externally (no comeback is as powerful as your antagonist actually kinda liking/having had positive interactions with you). When all your eggs are in Win the Fight basket, it's actually easier to lose the fight by getting all your eggs smashed up, rather than distributing a bunch of your eggs into Other Kinds of Interactions baskets. If that makes... any sense at all.

In my experience, those people whose shields are impenetrable have things in the first place that reinforce it. They don't have to worry about anything because they've already got the things that they would otherwise worry about. :p

[Enail]

Universal recognition doesn't matter as much as it's just a thing that can't be taken away, and it's recognized enough. Normal people rule the world, not having one of those things that they recognize as an accomplishment, even if they say "well, you could do better" or "hurr de hurr but it's not [that]" is basically a social death sentence

Okay, then it seems like the thing to do is to make a list of things that you think would count for that, and then you can figure out which of those are most appealing and/or feasible, and then that presumably would be a goal that would actually have some value to you?

[bomaye]

1. Buy lottery tickets, hope for excessive amounts of luck

[Enail]

That may be the worst list I've ever seen

[bomaye]

2. Somehow go back to school, be in a strange place around people I don't want to be around, learn something that I don't want to learn, become indebted and have to work off that debt doing a job I don't want to do, convince people that I don't like or respect that I am worth hiring to do that job. But at least I'll have a piece paper that can't be taken away too

[bomaye]

3. Would probably be some kind of exercise-y thing, buuuut I've done that enough to know that the work is not worth the outcome. Who wants to count calories and do the same repetitive motion on your free time? Yuck

[bomaye]

4. Project some kind of savage intimidation enough that you wouldn't think of saying something otherwise. Seems dangerous

[Enail]

Wouldn't it make more sense to list outcomes rather than the paths to them? It seems like you're mostly just thinking about paths you've considered before in the exact steps you've already ruled them out with. What kinds of things do you encounter in other people that makes you think "oh, that's a thing" or "people will respect them for that?"

ETA: Also, I'm wondering, how much overlap is there between those things and things that make you respect someone? I still think what you think of it is more important than you say.

[bomaye]

Outcomes don't just poof out of thin air, so I don't see much point in listing them?

[bomaye]

ETA: Also, I'm wondering, how much overlap is there between those things and things that make you respect someone? I still think what you think of it is more important than you say.  

Oops, didn't see this part.

The things I respect about other people don't really matter either way. They're already exceptional or rich or something, or it's not normal-person-thinking so it doesn't really mean much

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