Re: The fear of "Too Late"

[Werel]

Also, I'm wondering, how much overlap is there between those things and things that make you respect someone? I still think what you think of it is more important than you say.

Yeah, not saying your assessment of what the general "world" values and respects is anything but 100% clear-eyed objective truth (), but looking at what you personally respect is a less nebulous starting place.

ETA:

The things I respect about other people don't really matter either way. They're already exceptional or rich or something, or it's not normal-person-thinking so it doesn't really mean much

Every single person you respect is exceptional or rich? The "not normal-person-thinking" to dismiss the real stuff you respect seems like kind of a copout, like if you admitted it you'd have to cede that people exist who value things beyond money or status, and you'd wreck up your misanthropy cred

Outcomes don't just poof out of thin air, so I don't see much point in listing them?

Nah, but lots of outcomes have multiple paths to getting there, so focusing on a specific path could be shooting yourself in the foot.

[bomaye]

Nah, but lots of outcomes have multiple paths to getting there, so focusing on a specific path could be shooting yourself in the foot.

But they are mostly all offshoots of the same general idea.

[Werel]

But they are mostly all offshoots of the same general idea.

Which is what, being "normal"?

[bomaye]

Example: Say I thought that being buff was important.

You need to work out a lot, eat right, and maybe take supplements or steroids. Paths are going to be variations on this

[Werel]

Example: Say I thought that being buff was important.

You need to work out a lot, eat right, and maybe take supplements or steroids. Paths are going to be variations on this

How helpful is a hypothetical "say I thought [mainstream thing] mattered" in lieu of "here's a thing I actually think matters"?

Being buff is one of the less path-varied things, true. Something like "develop self-sufficiency" or "adjust happiness:despair ratio" has way more possible routes to it, though.

In my experience, those people whose shields are impenetrable have things in the first place that reinforce it. They don't have to worry about anything because they've already got the things that they would otherwise worry about. :p

Okay, despite being kind of wrong (impenetrable-shield-havers do in fact worry about things ), you are also kind of right: those people have the things they'd worry about if they didn't have. I.e. things they, themselves, personally value. So figuring out and owning up to the things you personally value, the things you worry about not having for your own sake, is the surest way to build up those shields.

Seems like maybe one of the things you actually personally value is acceptance and validation. That's one of the ones where there are a lot of paths.

[Enail]

It's true that most outcomes have only so many paths to get to them, but if you get bogged down immediately in the details of how to get it before you even know what you want, you just land up seeing all the details and it looks like a lot, and since you don't even know what you're steering for or if it's something you want, you decide it's not worth it. And then it's back to the beginning when you start to long for one thing or another again.

If you can spend some time figuring out what you actually, genuinely value or what would be a meaningful achievement to you, it might be easier to come up with a path that you can work with in a more ongoing way.

One more question: What is the smallest unit of success to you? What's the smallest, most minimum thing that you would look at someone else and think "at least they have X?"

[bomaye]

How helpful is a hypothetical "say I thought [mainstream thing] mattered" in lieu of "here's a thing I actually think matters"?

It's not really. I've played that game of "I think something matters when they don't", it doesn't matter if they don't think it does no matter what :p

Being buff is one of the less path-varied things, true. Something like "develop self-sufficiency" or "adjust happiness:despair ratio" has way more possible routes to it, though.

And those things mostly flow through the same types of paths, unless wild luck is involved

Okay, despite being kind of wrong (impenetrable-shield-havers do in fact worry about things ), you are also kind of right: those people have the things they'd worry about if they didn't have. I.e. things they, themselves, personally value. So figuring out and owning up to the things you personally value, the things you worry about not having for your own sake, is the surest way to build up those shields.

If that was true, I wouldn't be in this position in the first place :p

Seems like maybe one of the things you actually personally value is acceptance and validation. That's one of the ones where there are a lot of paths.

I would personally value not feeling like an easy target if I were reveal personal details about myself, or to not be told I'm immediately wrong or otherwise get the "get a load of this guy" reaction by lesser brain-ed people who have never really thought through the kinds of things they repeat.

That's not just a "friends busting on each other" thing, that's a normal person thing. Normal is thinking and operating on the assumption that everyone around you thinks the exact same way that you do, thus finding strength in the collective assumption that they are right, even if they're not. You cannot win against them even if you are right (if DNL's stuff has taught me anything, it's specifically that) because they don't think in the first place

[bomaye]

It's true that most outcomes have only so many paths to get to them, but if you get bogged down immediately in the details of how to get it before you even know what you want, you just land up seeing all the details and it looks like a lot, and since you don't even know what you're steering for or if it's something you want, you decide it's not worth it. And then it's back to the beginning when you start to long for one thing or another again.

Because it is a lot. It's not just one small step at a time, once it's started, there's no turning back. Going to school means debt means paying off that debt eventually means you have to do something to pay off that debt whether you're into it or not.

If you can spend some time figuring out what you actually, genuinely value or what would be a meaningful achievement to you, it might be easier to come up with a path that you can work with in a more ongoing way.

"To not have to worry about any of this stuff."

One more question: What is the smallest unit of success to you? What's the smallest, most minimum thing that you would look at someone else and think "at least they have X?"

"At least you have a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you."

[Enail]

It's true that most outcomes have only so many paths to get to them, but if you get bogged down immediately in the details of how to get it before you even know what you want, you just land up seeing all the details and it looks like a lot, and since you don't even know what you're steering for or if it's something you want, you decide it's not worth it. And then it's back to the beginning when you start to long for one thing or another again.

Because it is a lot. It's not just one small step at a time, once it's started, there's no turning back. Going to school means debt means paying off that debt eventually means you have to do something to pay off that debt whether you're into it or not.

Some of them are a lot, some are less big or less no-turning-back-ful. Some of them may have ways to make the big leaps less difficult.

If you can spend some time figuring out what you actually, genuinely value or what would be a meaningful achievement to you, it might be easier to come up with a path that you can work with in a more ongoing way.

"To not have to worry about any of this stuff."

Come on, you know you go back and forth on this. Just not having to worry about that stuff is one thing you want, but it also doesn't generally sound like that alone would feel meaningful for you, just comfortable. Which is a fine thing to go for itself, but it doesn't help to ignore the fact that sometimes you want something else.

One more question: What is the smallest unit of success to you? What's the smallest, most minimum thing that you would look at someone else and think "at least they have X?"

"At least you have a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you."

Someone has to have all that just for you to think they've got something? But you talk as if everyone has something but you!

[bomaye]

Some of them are a lot, some are less big or less no-turning-back-ful. Some of them may have ways to make the big leaps less difficult.

Yeah, but less difficult does not mitigate the amount of things to have to do.

Come on, you know you go back and forth on this. Just not having to worry about that stuff is one thing you want, but it also doesn't generally sound like that alone would feel meaningful for you, just comfortable. Which is a fine thing to go for itself, but it doesn't help to ignore the fact that sometimes you want something else.

Yeah, I do go back and forth on it, but that would be the one that would at least make the worst case scenario comfortable, instead of pretending like a best case or a good case scenario can happen.

"At least you have a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you."

Someone has to have all that just for you to think they've got something? But you talk as if everyone has something but you!

It's one of those three things, or the path is leading to one of those three things.

[Enail]

Some of them are a lot, some are less big or less no-turning-back-ful. Some of them may have ways to make the big leaps less difficult.

Yeah, but less difficult does not mitigate the amount of things to have to do.

That's true. These are major life things you're talking about, not one-shot goals, that kind of thing is always going to have many sub-quests. Is a lot of steps something you can deal with, if it gets you something you want?

Come on, you know you go back and forth on this. Just not having to worry about that stuff is one thing you want, but it also doesn't generally sound like that alone would feel meaningful for you, just comfortable. Which is a fine thing to go for itself, but it doesn't help to ignore the fact that sometimes you want something else.

Yeah, I do go back and forth on it, but that would be the one that would at least make the worst case scenario comfortable, instead of pretending like a best case or a good case scenario can happen.

You know I don't agree that could only be pretending, but leaving that aside...  It seems like sometimes "make the worst case scenario comfortable" feels like a worthwhile goal for you and other times not; is there anything you could change in that goal to make it a more consistently satisfactory goal, like a stretch goal or a second stream that runs simultaneously and potentially offers something else that matters to you?

And then the other issue I'm seeing is that a lot of the paths to that goal involve some level of dealing with the outside world, and you waver on whether you can accept that or not, which is how we get to the question of are there any viable ways to build some pre-shielding before setting out into that. Right now it sounds like you're saying there is nothing that functions as shielding that can be gotten without dealing with the outside world first (assuming you're still ruling out any kind of work that can be done online as a path to a job), is that right?

"At least you have a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you."

Someone has to have all that just for you to think they've got something? But you talk as if everyone has something but you!

It's one of those three things, or the path is leading to one of those three things.

Okay, so it's "or," not "and?" If being on a path that leads to one of those is sufficient, shouldn't that mean that anything you do towards those things is itself protection, which means that dealing with the outside world to get education for a job, say, comes with protection from the outside world as part of the package since it's on that path?

I'm also a little dubious that those really are your minimum "things that count".  You've said before that a useless degree would still count as something, for example, does that mean you consider that a higher ranking thing to have than the three you list? Or being in shape/muscles/whatever the exercise-y thing you were listing earlier would be in service of, is that higher ranking? Do you consider yourself an equal with anyone who doesn't have one of those three, and would everyone who has one be above you?

[bomaye]

That's true. These are major life things you're talking about, not one-shot goals, that kind of thing is always going to have many sub-quests. Is a lot of steps something you can deal with, if it gets you something you want?

It's there's enough of a guarantee of it happening

You know I don't agree that could only be pretending, but leaving that aside...  It seems like sometimes "make the worst case scenario comfortable" feels like a worthwhile goal for you and other times not; is there anything you could change in that goal to make it a more consistently satisfactory goal, like a stretch goal or a second stream that runs simultaneously and potentially offers something else that matters to you?

I don't think so because there's no guarantees with any stream.

And then the other issue I'm seeing is that a lot of the paths to that goal involve some level of dealing with the outside world, and you waver on whether you can accept that or not, which is how we get to the question of are there any viable ways to build some pre-shielding before setting out into that. Right now it sounds like you're saying there is nothing that functions as shielding that can be gotten without dealing with the outside world first (assuming you're still ruling out any kind of work that can be done online as a path to a job), is that right?

Yup.

Okay, so it's "or," not "and?" If being on a path that leads to one of those is sufficient, shouldn't that mean that anything you do towards those things is itself protection, which means that dealing with the outside world to get education for a job, say, comes with protection from the outside world as part of the package since it's on that path?

"I'll get there some day" means you're not there and may never be. So no, it's not really protection.

I'm also a little dubious that those really are your minimum "things that count".  You've said before that a useless degree would still count as something, for example, does that mean you consider that a higher ranking thing to have than the three you list? Or being in shape/muscles/whatever the exercise-y thing you were listing earlier would be in service of, is that higher ranking? Do you consider yourself an equal with anyone who doesn't have one of those three, and would everyone who has one be above you?

It's something that you can't take away from someone, even if it is useless.

And pretty much everyone's got a spot above me in some way or another :p

[Enail]

You know I don't agree that could only be pretending, but leaving that aside...  It seems like sometimes "make the worst case scenario comfortable" feels like a worthwhile goal for you and other times not; is there anything you could change in that goal to make it a more consistently satisfactory goal, like a stretch goal or a second stream that runs simultaneously and potentially offers something else that matters to you?

I don't think so because there's no guarantees with any stream.

There's no guarantee with a first stream either, though. Are you ruling out everything, or do you mean it might be worth it for the first stream but not for a second?

Okay, so it's "or," not "and?" If being on a path that leads to one of those is sufficient, shouldn't that mean that anything you do towards those things is itself protection, which means that dealing with the outside world to get education for a job, say, comes with protection from the outside world as part of the package since it's on that path?

"I'll get there some day" means you're not there and may never be. So no, it's not really protection.

What did you mean when you said a path that's leading to those things counts, then?

I'm also a little dubious that those really are your minimum "things that count".  You've said before that a useless degree would still count as something, for example, does that mean you consider that a higher ranking thing to have than the three you list? Or being in shape/muscles/whatever the exercise-y thing you were listing earlier would be in service of, is that higher ranking? Do you consider yourself an equal with anyone who doesn't have one of those three, and would everyone who has one be above you?

It's something that you can't take away from someone, even if it is useless.

Then are you saying it'd be harder for you to get a degree than to get one of those three? Or, why are those three what you're calling minimum and a degree not minimum?

And pretty much everyone's got a spot above me in some way or another :p

Then I don't think "a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you" are the lowest bar options for a thing, because certainly not everyone has one of those three.  So what do the rest of "pretty much everyone" have, and is it something you might want and/or could get?

[bomaye]

There's no guarantee with a first stream either, though. Are you ruling out everything, or do you mean it might be worth it for the first stream but not for a second?

"There's no guarantee for the first stream" is what I meant too

What did you mean when you said a path that's leading to those things counts, then?

When they either love something enough that it doesn't matter to them if they fail, or they don't otherwise think too much about the fact that their degree or path might not be paying off

Then are you saying it'd be harder for you to get a degree than to get one of those three? Or, why are those three what you're calling minimum and a degree not minimum?

While you can't take away a useless degree, you still have to pay it off somehow. I could end up exactly where I am but with a lot more debt and needing a way to pay it off :p

Then I don't think "a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you" are the lowest bar options for a thing, because certainly not everyone has one of those three.  So what do the rest of "pretty much everyone" have, and is it something you might want and/or could get?

Enough people have enough of those things, and most people are shooting for at least those things, to make it that those things are the lowest bar.

And if you don't have them or aren't on the road to having them, you're pretty much don't have much of anything

[Werel]

Normal is thinking and operating on the assumption that everyone around you thinks the exact same way that you do, thus finding strength in the collective assumption that they are right, even if they're not. You cannot win against them even if you are right (if DNL's stuff has taught me anything, it's specifically that) because they don't think in the first place

Man, you gotta decide whether or not you actually want to be normal. It sounds like you're using "normal" as both a stand-in for "socially acceptable enough to be given equal shots at material resources" AND to represent all kinds of really damning generalizations. Wanting to be socially accepted enough to get things like jobs and dates is one thing, that's fine, and probably completely within your reach if you're just looking to pass in public. But if being "normal" means typical-mind-fallacying all day long, being shallowly judgmental as shit, and never thinking critically about your choices or opinions, it's not a goal. It's just a common kind of failure. Can you separate the two kinds of normal ("passing" vs. "embodiment of bomaye's misanthropy"), and figure out how to do the former without being the latter?

You don't have to be kind of caricature norm you detest in order to get some stuff from the outside world. Conflating "normal" with "idiotic" may be an okay temp defense mechanism, but it's a cheap equivocation, you're smarter than that.

a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you

What's a "regular history"? Is it just... a past of having a job and people who wanted to have sex with you? Calling shenanigans if so, that's only two things and there MUST be at least three.

When they either love something enough that it doesn't matter to them if they fail, or they don't otherwise think too much about the fact that their degree or path might not be paying off

Well, do you love the isolation-hermitude path enough that it doesn't matter if you eventually fail at it?

[Enail]

Normal is thinking and operating on the assumption that everyone around you thinks the exact same way that you do, thus finding strength in the collective assumption that they are right, even if they're not. You cannot win against them even if you are right (if DNL's stuff has taught me anything, it's specifically that) because they don't think in the first place

Man, you gotta decide whether or not you actually want to be normal. It sounds like you're using "normal" as both a stand-in for "socially acceptable enough to be given equal shots at material resources" AND to represent all kinds of really damning generalizations. Wanting to be socially accepted enough to get things like jobs and dates is one thing, that's fine, and probably completely within your reach if you're just looking to pass in public. But if being "normal" means typical-mind-fallacying all day long, being shallowly judgmental as shit, and never thinking critically about your choices or opinions, it's not a goal. It's just a common kind of failure. Can you separate the two kinds of normal ("passing" vs. "embodiment of bomaye's misanthropy"), and figure out how to do the former without being the latter?

You don't have to be kind of caricature norm you detest in order to get some stuff from the outside world. Conflating "normal" with "idiotic" may be an okay temp defense mechanism, but it's a cheap equivocation, you're smarter than that.

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!

[Enail]

What did you mean when you said a path that's leading to those things counts, then?

When they either love something enough that it doesn't matter to them if they fail, or they don't otherwise think too much about the fact that their degree or path might not be paying off

Does...that mean that what they think is what gives the path value, rather than what they actually achieve in the end?

Then are you saying it'd be harder for you to get a degree than to get one of those three? Or, why are those three what you're calling minimum and a degree not minimum?

While you can't take away a useless degree, you still have to pay it off somehow. I could end up exactly where I am but with a lot more debt and needing a way to pay it off :p

And with a thing that can't be taken away. Not that I'm recommending it as a course of action, but if, in order to be okay with doing any of the things that could give you safety or normal or whatever you want, you need to have a thing, a thing is basically the key that you need to open all the other doors, right? So I think you need to be assigning that some serious value in your calculations.

Then I don't think "a regular history, a job that is paying you okay, and someone who wants to have sex with you" are the lowest bar options for a thing, because certainly not everyone has one of those three.  So what do the rest of "pretty much everyone" have, and is it something you might want and/or could get?

Enough people have enough of those things, and most people are shooting for at least those things, to make it that those things are the lowest bar.

And if you don't have them or aren't on the road to having them, you're pretty much don't have much of anything

That's back to "why does being on the road to having them give you something, if it's not guaranteed?"   And also if you're classing pretty much everyone above you, there must be other things that count, because not everyone has or is on the road to having those things.

[bomaye]

Man, you gotta decide whether or not you actually want to be normal. It sounds like you're using "normal" as both a stand-in for "socially acceptable enough to be given equal shots at material resources" AND to represent all kinds of really damning generalizations. Wanting to be socially accepted enough to get things like jobs and dates is one thing, that's fine, and probably completely within your reach if you're just looking to pass in public. But if being "normal" means typical-mind-fallacying all day long, being shallowly judgmental as shit, and never thinking critically about your choices or opinions, it's not a goal. It's just a common kind of failure. Can you separate the two kinds of normal ("passing" vs. "embodiment of bomaye's misanthropy"), and figure out how to do the former without being the latter?

You don't have to be kind of caricature norm you detest in order to get some stuff from the outside world. Conflating "normal" with "idiotic" may be an okay temp defense mechanism, but it's a cheap equivocation, you're smarter than that.

I don't want to be them at all, but they run things. You don't get those things unless you play their game. DNL as the prime example. You can't win against them, you either have to become as vapid as they are, or otherwise fake being them, which is basically just letting them win. If you can't fake being them, you lose, because they don't care unless you are like them. I lose either way. The only things that buy you freedom from this are superficial things I don't have. So the only real options are "what kind of cancer do you want to die from, quick acting or slow-burn?"

What's a "regular history"? Is it just... a past of having a job and people who wanted to have sex with you? Calling shenanigans if so, that's only two things and there MUST be at least three.

Doing everything at around the expected and right times :p

Well, do you love the isolation-hermitude path enough that it doesn't matter if you eventually fail at it?

I think you're implying I don't think about this at all :p

Does...that mean that what they think is what gives the path value, rather than what they actually achieve in the end?

Playing in a band knowing you may never be a famous rock star as an example. They like the music so much that the rest doesn't matter, so therefore, they don't think about it

And with a thing that can't be taken away. Not that I'm recommending it as a course of action, but if, in order to be okay with doing any of the things that could give you safety or normal or whatever you want, you need to have a thing, a thing is basically the key that you need to open all the other doors, right? So I think you need to be assigning that some serious value in your calculations.

The "needing to pay off the debt, so I'd be stuck unhappy but paying someone else in a job" does weigh into it :p

That's back to "why does being on the road to having them give you something, if it's not guaranteed?" And also if you're classing pretty much everyone above you, there must be other things that count, because not everyone has or is on the road to having those things.

I'm a super low-totem pole person because of missed or no experiences. There's people above me who would still be classified as losers, but that doesn't put us on equal footing :p

[Werel]

I don't want to be them at all, but they run things. You don't get those things unless you play their game. DNL as the prime example. You can't win against them, you either have to become as vapid as they are, or otherwise fake being them, which is basically just letting them win. If you can't fake being them, you lose, because they don't care unless you are like them. I lose either way. The only things that buy you freedom from this are superficial things I don't have. So the only real options are "what kind of cancer do you want to die from, quick acting or slow-burn?"

Tch, of COURSE in Canadian socialist healthcare utopia you get to pick which kind of cancer you have

But I do kinda want to push you on this "normal" thing, because it sounds like the implication is: a person needs to be a certain degree of vapid in order to attain conventional measures of success (or convincingly fake vapidity). That's a pretty rough judgment of everyone who's got any of those "success" Things. I can understand feeling like non-vapid alternative paths to material/social success are closed to you, but your framework here is one where those alternative paths don't seem to exist at all-- which means anybody who's got Things got them by slimy means, or means which you see as slimy.

If the only ways to get Things come at an unacceptable cost (compromising yourself to the extent that "they've won"), and the absence of Things is also unacceptable, you auto-lose, like you said. But if the only way to get Things is to be all this bad shit, and everyone else has more Things than you, then everyone else must be a garbage person. That degree of misanthropy would be all the shield anyone could need, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. So: is there actually a way to be "normal" and get the success things without being/emulating a vapid, thoughtless person? If not, why bother wanting anything from such a corrupt system?

[bomaye]

But I do kinda want to push you on this "normal" thing, because it sounds like the implication is: a person needs to be a certain degree of vapid in order to attain conventional measures of success (or convincingly fake vapidity). That's a pretty rough judgment of everyone who's got any of those "success" Things. I can understand feeling like non-vapid alternative paths to material/social success are closed to you, but your framework here is one where those alternative paths don't seem to exist at all-- which means anybody who's got Things got them by slimy means, or means which you see as slimy.

If the only ways to get Things come at an unacceptable cost (compromising yourself to the extent that "they've won"), and the absence of Things is also unacceptable, you auto-lose, like you said. But if the only way to get Things is to be all this bad shit, and everyone else has more Things than you, then everyone else must be a garbage person. That degree of misanthropy would be all the shield anyone could need, but it doesn't seem to be doing it. So: is there actually a way to be "normal" and get the success things without being/emulating a vapid, thoughtless person?

It's not necessarily corrupt or slimy (some is, ofc) or evil or anything like that, it's just "the way things are" because that's how normals fall into place. Most people also have enough dreams or urge or desires (or lack of choice) to have to go through the normal system whether they want to or not. And the only way to really upset the normal applecart is to one of those super influential types, which is like 0.000001% of the entire human race.

Otherwise, the normal machine is uncaring, if you are not normal enough they will find someone else who is normal enough, so you'd best act as normal as possible and think as normal as possible or at least appear as both. It cannot be defeated, its mind cannot be changed, hopefully you are normal enough or better luck next time. "Fake it until you make it xDDDDD"

If not, why bother wanting anything from such a corrupt system?

There is no real choice :p

[Enail]

I don't want to be them at all, but they run things. You don't get those things unless you play their game. DNL as the prime example. You can't win against them, you either have to become as vapid as they are, or otherwise fake being them, which is basically just letting them win. If you can't fake being them, you lose, because they don't care unless you are like them. I lose either way. The only things that buy you freedom from this are superficial things I don't have. So the only real options are "what kind of cancer do you want to die from, quick acting or slow-burn?"

You know the rest of us here aren't going through our lives faking being totally normal and superficial, right? (I guess the alternative here is that you think we're all genuinely vapid, in which case, you're wasting your time in this thread because none of us will ever have anything worthwhile to say  And you probably shouldn't tell us )

Does...that mean that what they think is what gives the path value, rather than what they actually achieve in the end?

Playing in a band knowing you may never be a famous rock star as an example. They like the music so much that the rest doesn't matter, so therefore, they don't think about it

But we're talking about what counts as a thing to outside sources, aren't we? Even if they're not thinking about it, wouldn't other people be and giving them negative judgement for it, that would then affect them? Or are people just Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts of Trall, and if you can't see them, they can't see you, so if someone's not thinking about whether or not people are judging them, they're essentially not?

ETA: That last bit sounds sarcastic, but it's genuine, that might be how things work?

And with a thing that can't be taken away. Not that I'm recommending it as a course of action, but if, in order to be okay with doing any of the things that could give you safety or normal or whatever you want, you need to have a thing, a thing is basically the key that you need to open all the other doors, right? So I think you need to be assigning that some serious value in your calculations.

The "needing to pay off the debt, so I'd be stuck unhappy but paying someone else in a job" does weigh into it :p

There is that. But if the thing is itself worth something to you, look into what happens if you're unemployed and can't pay it off. They can't get money from you you don't have, so worst case scenario, you go back to being where you are now but with a thing, and I think at some point they give up on collecting and forgive the debt.

Again, I don't think it's necessarily the way to go, but you're just running around and around the different options on auto-reject and that's never going to come up with different outcomes, it's just stressing you out and digging yourself into despair. I think you need to step back, reorient yourself to what you're trying to do with all this rather than just seeing things flying at you and shooting them down on instinct. And then maybe start out by focusing on what will let you walk on a path in the first place, because it doesn't really matter whether any given path is likely to lead somewhere if you're not going to walk it no matter what. You can poke holes in anything, you know that, so figure out what you need to be able to accept there will be holes and do it anyway.

Or, accept that there aren't any paths that have simple, large-scale positive outcomes and no bad outcomes you can imagine, and decide if that means you don't want to try any of them.  And then maybe reconsider if you'd like to try some of the things you've rejected that don't come with bad outcomes different from your current, but would have more modest potential benefits.

[bomaye]

You know the rest of us here aren't going through our lives faking being totally normal and superficial, right? (I guess the alternative here is that you think we're all genuinely vapid, in which case, you're wasting your time in this thread because none of us will ever have anything worthwhile to say  And you probably shouldn't tell us )

You have enough to be able to fake through it if you need to :p

But we're talking about what counts as a thing to outside sources, aren't we? Even if they're not thinking about it, wouldn't other people be and giving them negative judgement for it, that would then affect them? Or are people just Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts of Trall, and if you can't see them, they can't see you, so if someone's not thinking about whether or not people are judging them, they're essentially not?

ETA: That last bit sounds sarcastic, but it's genuine, that might be how things work?

I generally think people who love something that much already don't care what other people think about them

There is that. But if the thing is itself worth something to you, look into what happens if you're unemployed and can't pay it off. They can't get money from you you don't have, so worst case scenario, you go back to being where you are now but with a thing, and I think at some point they give up on collecting and forgive the debt.

Also destroys your credit rating :p

Again, I don't think it's necessarily the way to go, but you're just running around and around the different options on auto-reject and that's never going to come up with different outcomes, it's just stressing you out and digging yourself into despair. I think you need to step back, reorient yourself to what you're trying to do with all this rather than just seeing things flying at you and shooting them down on instinct. And then maybe start out by focusing on what will let you walk on a path in the first place, because it doesn't really matter whether any given path is likely to lead somewhere if you're not going to walk it no matter what. You can poke holes in anything, you know that, so figure out what you need to be able to accept there will be holes and do it anyway.

Or, accept that there aren't any paths that have simple, large-scale positive outcomes and no bad outcomes you can imagine, and decide if that means you don't want to try any of them.  And then maybe reconsider if you'd like to try some of the things you've rejected that don't come with bad outcomes different from your current, but would have more modest potential benefits.

I already know, a guarantee. And since there are no guarantees...

[Enail]

You know the rest of us here aren't going through our lives faking being totally normal and superficial, right? (I guess the alternative here is that you think we're all genuinely vapid, in which case, you're wasting your time in this thread because none of us will ever have anything worthwhile to say  And you probably shouldn't tell us )

You have enough to be able to fake through it if you need to :p

That's not something one has to do by being normal and superficial, though.

But we're talking about what counts as a thing to outside sources, aren't we? Even if they're not thinking about it, wouldn't other people be and giving them negative judgement for it, that would then affect them? Or are people just Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts of Trall, and if you can't see them, they can't see you, so if someone's not thinking about whether or not people are judging them, they're essentially not?

ETA: That last bit sounds sarcastic, but it's genuine, that might be how things work?

I generally think people who love something that much already don't care what other people think about them

Okay, so does that mean an alternate form of protection would be finding something that mentally distracts from thinking or caring about whether other people are judging you?

There is that. But if the thing is itself worth something to you, look into what happens if you're unemployed and can't pay it off. They can't get money from you you don't have, so worst case scenario, you go back to being where you are now but with a thing, and I think at some point they give up on collecting and forgive the debt.

Also destroys your credit rating :p

But a credit rating is something that can only ever help you if you're already succeeding at some of the stuff you don't have now. You're ruling out doing things in case they cause problems that you can't ever encounter unless you do that thing, and that would still leave you in a better position than you are now. It's kind of like saying "I don't want to win the lottery, because they'll tax my winnings, and I don't have that kind of money!"

Again, I don't think it's necessarily the way to go, but you're just running around and around the different options on auto-reject and that's never going to come up with different outcomes, it's just stressing you out and digging yourself into despair. I think you need to step back, reorient yourself to what you're trying to do with all this rather than just seeing things flying at you and shooting them down on instinct. And then maybe start out by focusing on what will let you walk on a path in the first place, because it doesn't really matter whether any given path is likely to lead somewhere if you're not going to walk it no matter what. You can poke holes in anything, you know that, so figure out what you need to be able to accept there will be holes and do it anyway.

Or, accept that there aren't any paths that have simple, large-scale positive outcomes and no bad outcomes you can imagine, and decide if that means you don't want to try any of them.  And then maybe reconsider if you'd like to try some of the things you've rejected that don't come with bad outcomes different from your current, but would have more modest potential benefits.

I already know, a guarantee. And since there are no guarantees...

Okay, so you've got the answer, why are you still gnawing at it? Put that energy into trying to improve things in ways that don't involve those kinds of risks.

[bomaye]

That's not something one has to do by being normal and superficial, though.

You did things in relatively the "right" time period, which is pretty normal, and you don't lead with your weirdo foot otherwise :p

Okay, so does that mean an alternate form of protection would be finding something that mentally distracts from thinking or caring about whether other people are judging you?

I don't love anything that much, I would've found it already :/

But a credit rating is something that can only ever help you if you're already succeeding at some of the stuff you don't have now. You're ruling out doing things in case they cause problems that you can't ever encounter unless you do that thing, and that would still leave you in a better position than you are now. It's kind of like saying "I don't want to win the lottery, because they'll tax my winnings, and I don't have that kind of money!"

It's the further closing of doors and options. I'm not going to callously discard it just because.

Okay, so you've got the answer, why are you still gnawing at it? Put that energy into trying to improve things in ways that don't involve those kinds of risks.

Because the things that I'm missing involve things with no guarantees? :p

[Enail]

That's not something one has to do by being normal and superficial, though.

You did things in relatively the "right" time period, which is pretty normal, and you don't lead with your weirdo foot otherwise :p

Now you're just assuming. AFAIK, I come across as a weirdo off the bat.

Okay, so does that mean an alternate form of protection would be finding something that mentally distracts from thinking or caring about whether other people are judging you?

I don't love anything that much, I would've found it already :/

But does it have to be love? Isn't it possible that extreme zen or some other mental attitude or feeling could serve the same purpose?

And it is totally possible that there's something you haven't tried that you would love. It's not always "see someone doing an activity, suddenly realize that's your one true purpose in life and you have to do it," sometimes it's more of a slow thing that builds over time as you keep it up and becomes a meaningful part of your life. Which is only sort of semi-relevant because I don't think that kind of thing becomes a defense against judgement very quickly, but still.

It's the further closing of doors and options. I'm not going to callously discard it just because.

It's the closing of some doors and options, but it's also one that opens some doors and options that would otherwise be closed.

I get wanting to preserve all options when you're not sure what you want or what's the right choice, but it doesn't really work. If you keep those doors open at the cost of actually going through any doors, the doors might be technically open, but the effect is the same as if they were all closed. It's sacrificing any actual improvements on the altar of possibility.

Okay, so you've got the answer, why are you still gnawing at it? Put that energy into trying to improve things in ways that don't involve those kinds of risks.

Because the things that I'm missing involve things with no guarantees? :p

Okay, but you've got the answer, you don't get those things, right? If that part's decided, leave it be, you've chosen and those things will remain missing. If that's the situation, that's it, no further thought required, right?

So move on to looking at the options that don't involve those kinds of risks, don't potentially close any doors - but still mostly don't have guarantees - and figure out if the things those options might give you are beneficial/likely enough to be worth trying, if they'll improve your life or open any doors that aren't open now or take away some of the risks for the big leap options.

...Or else, the idea that those things that have too much risk to pursue will remain missing is something you can't accept, and you won't leave it be. In which case, you've got to go back and decide to walk through one of those door even though it means risks or closes some other doors, to put that energy into seeing that the fabric is imperfect and torn in places and wearing it anyway, into not picking at the frayed edges and poking holes in it further. Or if you can't walk through those doors now, deciding that you want to become able to, and working at the small practical things that will make it more possible, on mending some of the tears in the fabric until you can wear it, and keep trying not to rip it apart.

[Sponsored content]