My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)

[Datelessman]

As a brief recap (he says ironically), I've been a struggling older male virgin since as long as I can remember. I was drawn to DNL's website due to my sporadic online searching for dating advice and his stuff connected to me more than most of the others out there (who are either PUA hucksters or incel recruiters). I joined his website's forums but over a few years wore out my welcome (as I did previously at a similar About.com forum when I was in college) due to my flurry of endlessly long posts combined with my tendency to debate people trying to give me advice (which could be uncharitably called "being combative"). I got banned and came here, and overall like this forum a bit better because the pace is slower and it has more topics. For example, I spend most of my time here posting long winded reviews on the "Entertainment Joys" thread. I genuinely enjoy that. Interacting with me on that is about as close to a real life interaction with me as anyone on here may ever have. I am a geeky, geeky man.

While I always had anxiety about being single and lonely, they reached a fever pitch when I turned 20. At that point it was very obvious that my love life was well behind that of my peers (despite none of them being lotharios) and something was "off" or different about me. I used to send panic stricken, self-loathing letters to the Playboy Advisor and post on About thinking it would be doomsday if I was still a virgin at 25. Well, that milestone came and went, and I laugh at that now. As the years went by and I finished college, more "real life" issues came into play. I was always poor. My mother, handicapped since the end of high school, was getting worse and needed more aid. My grandmother's health drastically got worse early on into college and I had to aid both of them. I was in my mid 20's when grandma died but by then I was the sole breadwinner of the household. And about 4 years ago, our slumlord decided to try to evict us, a case which has wore on and on. It wouldn't be fair to blame 100% on my lack of a love life on tending to handicapped relatives or stress over housing court, but it also wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit those events leeched a lot of my energy for deep dives into dating as well as hurting my outlook on the future in general.

Four months ago I officially became a 40 year old virgin. Such a milestone is only notable due to that 2005 Judd Apatow film that seemed to propel the concept of "older male virgin" into the mainstream just as social media was bubbling. I wonder if the 1955 film "MARTY" was a similar foundational film for shy, lonely guys at that time (the 34 year old Marty is never stated to be a virgin, but as a lonely unmarried man, it's heavily implied). And of course, Principal Skinner from THE SIMPSONS was still a virgin at 44. Regardless, while I am not as depressed about it as much as I imagined I'd be twenty years ago, and to be honest I kind of gave up once I hit about 35, its not water off a duck's back either.

Older male virgins tend to always blame something for their fate. Too many blame women. Some blame society. Most blame themselves, or some combination thereof. I always blamed myself and society, in that order. I couldn't blame women; I knew better. I was raised by a single mom and had more than a few women as friends as I grew up. It wasn't that I couldn't connect with women, it was that I was never seen by any I liked as a romantic, sexual being. I was always their boyfriend's funny pal, at best. I could never cross that divide from friendship (or at least being casually friendly) to romance. To go from "this fellow is interesting" to "I want to touch my lips to his." There's a gap, perhaps a small one, but it may as well have been the Grand Canyon for me.

The oddest thing about hitting 40 now is that for the last 2 years, I really could blame something other than myself. Covid-19 and the extended endemic since have slowed down casual dating, or at least made it more difficult and added more health worries to the mix. And now the lunatics on the Supreme Court have ended Roe v. Wade, shattering federal abortion rights for the first time in almost half a century. Even though I live in NY (ironically, the state that helped kick off the road to Roe by legalizing abortion in 1970 via a dramatic one vote margin in the legislature), the end of Roe has not made women any more eager to casually date amid the lingering fears of Covid-19. Many venues for dating are closed or restricted. The anxiety for society in general has left many nerves frayed. None of that was my fault. There was nothing I could have done. Many people have been "involuntarily celibate" during this period through no fault of their own. Heck, some studies have shown a sizeable portion of the public haven't had sex in 5 years.

So, I am not responsible for squandering the end of my 30's. But I am responsible for wasting my 20's and the beginning of my 30's. And if I were to try to date again, BOY, have I chosen the absolute most difficult time to do it that anyone has had since the HIV hysteria era of the 1980's and 90's. That isn't even mentioning that my mother has cancer, has already survived a Covid-19 infection while recovering from surgery in the hospital this past January, and was a high risk person for the virus even before that.

Tearing myself up for my wasted past does me no favors now. The problem is I see no path forward. Tending to my mother and the legal case takes up a lot of my non-working time. Trying to date only increases her risk of infection so long as we live together, and we kind of have to now since she is even more handicapped. It's not as simple as saving a ton of money and getting my own place; even if I hit Powerball, my mother would need to be tended to. Ironically, I have enough saved cash now that I could go to Vegas and "become a man," if I wasn't almost assured to bring Covid back (since Nevada has a far higher transmission rate than NY).

The lack of a dating past doesn't do me any favors, either. It isn't just about the lack of experience, which is huge. But it's about what women in my demographics may think about that. I always stuck to the "half your age plus 8" credo of dating. I genuinely do not like dating people who are far younger than me; it makes me feel like a creepy old man. At 33 I did a speed dating event at the NYCC and most of the women there were a day over 21, and I felt like either a vampire or Dorian Grey talking to them. So while it wouldn't be too squicky to date someone who was, say, 28, I would rather stick to someone in their 30's close to my own age. How far in the other direction to I want to go? I don't know; likely not over 50 and even over 45 would cause me to pause a bit. To the point, it is socially considered unusual for a single man over 40 in that demographic to have never been married and have no children. I don't want to say "red flag" because that's negative. But it might invite inquiries, even internally, that are not favorable. The most common is that a guy like that is "immature" or "non-committal." I could place the blame on tending to mom and grandma for years, but that seems like an excuse and I don't think most women would buy it. Most men go through almost superhuman lengths to date. Men date hours before they are being shipped to war, or are dying of cancer, or whose spouse is in the ICU. "What, your mom needed round the clock care?" is the natural follow up question. Sure, from 2020 to now I have Covid and the Conservi-Klan to blame, but what about for the decades before? "I was too shy to try and then life got worse," is not the answer most women want to hear in a bistro.

Dating now would be asking for whatever single woman I happened to encounter to be the first to date a 40 year old virgin who is still living with his mother, is a comic geek, amid an endemic and public anger at the end of Roe. That is a tall, tall, tall lift, man. That's like a no death run of Ninja Gaiden on NES. I never crossed the divide back when Bill Clinton was president. What are the chances I would now, when my cohort of dating partners are older and wiser? I guess that is why some "late bloomers" go way younger (that and as a creepy ego stroke), but that would make me feel guilty, like I was taking advantage of inexperience. A 28 year old woman is no child, but I could easily dismiss any positive attention as, "oh, she just doesn't know any better; it would be cruel to take advantage."

Yes, my inability to "take yes for an answer" is another problem. I've had 3 dates in my life and two were undermined by my disbelief that I was even on one, much less had any chance. The last was a blind date where, ironically, the woman was dismayed that I was younger than she thought (I literally tried to counter it by saying, "I'll be 27 next month."). I have no time to waste on blown chances, so I spent a lot of time trying to reach a place mentally where success was possible, because I could accept it if it happened (for my sake and hers, since dealing with this would be frustrating for a woman). I am not there yet and I doubt I ever will be.  I've lived too long alone. No overture a woman does would ease my doubts. I suppose the irony is a refusal to accept what a woman tells me because it runs against my own self image is, in fact, a sign of being "immature." The best I could do would be to try to bury that urge and wing it if it happened, but I don't know how well that would work. I imagine the only way I would accept it would be if I dated a woman who was bluntly terrible and catered to (or took advantage of) my own bad self image. THAT I would swallow, but it would be a hot mess of a relationship. Inexperience isn't just a lack of reading signals or knowing about how to make love or kiss; it's experiencing enough opportunities or potential for them that success at least seems possible.

I am the kind of guy who would be suspicious if a woman I liked told me, "I think you're kind of cool and exactly what I am needing right now," but would be far more comfortable if she said, "You're a total loser but I know you're desperate and I'll ride you until someone better comes along." And maybe I deserve a woman like that after all the ways I have lashed out at people who tried to help me or all the time I wasted. I'd just rather not go through that. I don't have the bandwidth. So facing a no-win situation of my own doing also saps will.

If I have done anything positive or progressive about my sexual identity at all, it is exploring certain things online. To keep things blunt, interaction at an anime fan group for a certain franchise on FB and commenting on one topic led me to meet a younger woman who now does text role plays with me where her OC (original character) either fights alongside or (usually) has wild sex with whatever character she wants to role play with that season (played my me). I've done role playing either via tabletop or message boards for over 20 years, but I had no idea she would go there so quickly, or demand graphic detail. Back when the Internet was new, role playing a sex scene online was called "cyber" and I'd never done that. I almost backed out, but I decided text was a good way to "practice" without practicing. Now, I hope if you read this far you can appreciate the absurdity of then-39-ish year old virgin roleplaying threesomes in text with fictional characters. She's never seemed to question anything, and by now I know her kinks well. It also helps that she never blurs the line between roleplay and real life; in fact we almost never chat "out of character," and she already is in a LTR. In fact she and some of her friends put dudes on blast who get judgemental on them during roleplays or try to hit on them. She's...almost insatiable, actually.

I also have chosen to express a particular sexual fetish I have (which I will never admit) via writing mildly erotic fan fiction online at Deviantart under another alias. It's been over a year and I've written some 25+ stories of fiction under such a context. I'd been involved in a fetish community board for a while and even did some text role plays with two women there, but one petered out and another lied about her age and was far too young (as well as kept trying to hit on me). Unlike the text role plays, which have always been with (younger) women, I assume 99% of the readership for those Deviantart fetish fanfictions are men; at least 99% of those who comment or "fave" it seem to be. I've actually become moderately popular there; my stories average 2,000-4,000 views and some have topped 11,000. I imagine if I wanted to attach some paywalls or shift people to a Patreon, I might make more cash than I do writing "safe" comic reviews online. But the net positive from both is an appreciation for my imagination revolving around something moderately sexual. It can feel flattering, and I have genuinely never been flattered in any kind of romantic or sexual context before, and certainly not consistently. I imagine both my RP partners as well as my fetish readers online would be surprised to learn I was a "kissless" 40 year old virgin. And no, I am not revealing what the alias is. A 40 year old virgin with a sick mother is almost sympathetic; one with a sexual fetish of any kind can easily be seen as a freak. I wonder if me kinkshaming myself has any effect on my will to try to date, too. I don't need it to become aroused or be attracted to someone at all. Plenty of people have stuff like that they never share and can function romantically without doing so. At any rate, expressing it has helped.

I have a blog for posts like this, and it is a very safe space. It's read by barely 500 people a month and commentators are very few and far between. The few that do comment rarely challenge me. I find this forum safe, but I'm more likely to get a different response, which is why I've written this. I haven't wanted to ware out my welcome here, which is why I haven't started a topic like this in about a year. I will...try to reign in my urge to have long debates with people. Or like Bart Simpson once pledged, "I can't say I'll try...but I'll try to try."

This is where I am at, and I am not sure where to go from here. Any warm approaches have dried up; most of my friends have coupled up and the few that have not are either men or not people who ever "recommend" me to anyone. I've never pleaded with them to do so, though. I know the best long term goal would be to try to make new friends with MeetUps, but Covid has hindered even those, and such a long term goal might take 5+ years before anything develops. Online dating is my best option, but OkCupid and the rest have long altered their protocols to make things a tad more difficult, and then I have to worry about professional photos and trying to convey my best traits in a profile. My best traits are "writing well" and "being funny," which are the kind of things a profile has to DISPLAY, not state. A really funny man does not say, "I am funny," he writes a funny profile. But that adds more pressure; write the best profile ever, with 97 words or less in each section, which displays such talents without seeming too goofy or cringey. No pressure! And even then...an overweight 40 year old man with a sense of humor into geeky things who doesn't want to get married immediately in NY is extremely common. Maybe not a dime a dozen, but at least a quarter (due to inflation).

So, that is where things are with me. Thanks to anyone who read this far. Any thoughts?

[Enail]

Honestly, if you know that you wouldn't be able to accept it if a woman was interested in you unless they thought you were a total loser and they were just desperate, none of the rest of this matters. You need to deal with that for anything else you do to make a difference. I realize therapy may be out of reach since money's tight, but if you can manage it, I think you should make that a priority.  Otherwise, maybe try one of those online courses (I know a few people liked Moodgym here back in the day, but I don't know if it's still operational) or books in CBT, and seriously work at it, on-goingly, practicing hard, even if it seems silly or useless. 

Things can't change if you won't let them change.

[Datelessman]

Honestly, if you know that you wouldn't be able to accept it if a woman was interested in you unless they thought you were a total loser and they were just desperate, none of the rest of this matters. You need to deal with that for anything else you do to make a difference. I realize therapy may be out of reach since money's tight, but if you can manage it, I think you should make that a priority.  Otherwise, maybe try one of those online courses (I know a few people liked Moodgym here back in the day, but I don't know if it's still operational) or books in CBT, and seriously work at it, on-goingly, practicing hard, even if it seems silly or useless. 

Things can't change if you won't let them change.

It took me a few years of blogging, interactions with DNL forums and here, and getting older before I realized that was about as much of a problem as shyness or inexperience, if not worse. My various jobs at call centers/telephone customer service since 2011 have allowed me to get better at talking to strangers, as well as sensing moods during a conversation (even over a phone). I can tell when someone is interested, at least in general, versus them losing interest or focus. That is not a skill I had much of until my 30's (if not mid 30's). Plus, while it isn't a good reason, College Me hadn't gone through grandma dying, mother's cancer, housing court, being unemployed twice for over a month, etc. That stuff scares me a lot more than a rejection.

But, yeah, dealing with rejections and overcoming shyness is one thing and hard enough. But not being able to recognize or accept the alternative is different. At first I thought it was fear which led to this disconnect, but the proper reaction now is disbelief. Even when I have tried some mental exercises or even fantasies to "imagine" things going well with a woman to try to plan how to react or what not, I break apart my own fantasy. It's kind of like how many writers and artists are their worst critics.

If this is the Moodgym you were talking about, it does appear to be operational: https://moodgym.com.au/

I have been giving it a look since you mentioned it just now. Thanks.

I have health insurance through work, but for monetary reasons I basically take what I call "the cheapskate plan" (otherwise more would be deducted from my paycheck), so I need to better research what the specifics are. I also have to be in a place where I accept a therapist, and then find the right one. And then actually be honest, which would mean telling a live human being that I am a virgin and being honest about my other issues. I haven't had in-person therapy since I was 18. Moodgym or a CBT book may be a cheaper or easier alternative.

It also gets harder to adopt a patience model once you reach some age threshold, even if I know it's a social construct milestone (as is virginity). So I have to find the right plan as well as have the patience to stick it out, even if it takes a few years to get me into a healthier place.

One thing which is definitely different now is that the big 4-0 puts other milestones into perspective. Like, I hadn't put much thought into whether or not I wanted children. My father was a deadbeat who I have never met (and only spoken to over the phone 3-4 times since I was ten). So was my mother's father, and my paternal grandfather. That's like 2 generations of bad fathers and I always felt pressured by that. The older a woman I date, the less likely that we will be able to safely have biological children. On the other hand, if I date within my cohort (say, age 30-44), the odds of a woman already having children (even teenagers) becomes pretty high, and I don't have a problem with that. So that's one thing which may resolve itself. A step-parent isn't the same, especially to a kid who is already well grown (lord knows Teenage Me never accepted some of my own mother's boyfriends), but it's still family. The other issue with being older is that it becomes increasingly likely that my first lover will be my only lover, as MANY anecdotes I have read online about "successful" older virgins who were around my age attested to. And some of them were glowingly positive; I remember a commenter on DNL's website described marrying an older virgin as "winning a prize no one else noticed" or something close. And that's great! I even have two associates who stuck with their high school sweethearts since then and eventually married them (as their only lovers, or close to it). But it still adds pressure to not screw up a potentially positive outcome, much like I did when I was in high school or college. Disbelief will rob me of whatever time I have left.

[Enail]

Disbelief will rob me of whatever time I have left.

If you let it, yes. You can change that, though.


And yep, that looks like the same Moodgym.

[inbloomer]

A few suggestions:

1) I think endless wargaming and ruminating over how a hypothetical opportunity would play out isn't helpful and does eventually wear out other people's sympathy. Nothing ever happens quite as you imagined it anyway.

2) I think it's easy for anyone to spend ages brooding over past "missed opportunities" - but one may be seeing the past through rose-tinted glasses. If such events really were chances, they probably would have gone further at the time.

3) The problem with a lot of dating advice is that everyone wants instant results, to the point of being highly suspicious of "Schrodinger's relationships" and "back-door friendship gambits". Yet the reality of a lot of real-world dating is slow builds (months to years) through friendships that have potential for more. DNL has recognised this more in recent years, and as he says there is a lot of skills overlap between non-romantic and romantic relationships.

4) One thing that really helped me was getting promoted at work into roles where I manage people and lead teams. You have to develop relationships with people that are quite emotionally close, though of course entirely non-sexual and non-romantic, because you can't be a good manager and inspire people just by being a machine. But you can't be a doormat either - there are times where you have to have difficult conversations and lay down the law. That may not be viable for you, but maybe there is some kind of volunteering or mentoring you could find that's similar?

[Datelessman]

If you let it, yes. You can change that, though.

And yep, that looks like the same Moodgym.

Excellent. Thank you for the link. It does look interesting and I may register and give it a try when I have a little free time.

The only thing which concerns me about it are the "characters" Moodgym introduces as part of their lesson plan. Their website was intended to be useable for 16-18 year olds at a minimum, but they kind of remind me of psychological versions of Goofus and Gallant from HIGHLIGHTS Magazine. And I am a bit old for that. But I shouldn't nitpick it before I try it, as I am interested. It looks pretty user friendly and easy to use at my own pace, which are major pluses. And free, of course.

A few suggestions:

2) I think it's easy for anyone to spend ages brooding over past "missed opportunities" - but one may be seeing the past through rose-tinted glasses. If such events really were chances, they probably would have gone further at the time.

As time has gone on, I realize I may have done the opposite; given a lot of my past experiences too much emotional weight in my life for too long. Every milquetoast routine rejection or unrequited limerence became devastating and a founding block in my memory. I really should have moved on and kept trying, taking more advantage of the unique, difficult-to-duplicate college experience especially. Granted, it is easy for me to say that now after many years of hindsight, including my own blog. Actually getting down many of my past experiences into another medium really did help.

For a while I thought the common debilitating factor for all of them was fear, which is primal. But fear can be overcome; for example, even if I am afraid of jumping into a pool, I can still do it with enough determination, faith, or will. But if I actively disbelieve that the pool is full, or that it really is full of water and not solid ice, or that it isn't poisoned, then I will never jump. There's no way for the pool or me to win. That's the issue, I think. I just wish I'd realized it before I was about 38.

As few and fleeting chances for romance as I had when I was younger, the one undermining factor was disbelief. I couldn't believe a woman I was into could ever possibly like me back if she really knew what she was getting into.

3) The problem with a lot of dating advice is that everyone wants instant results, to the point of being highly suspicious of "Schrodinger's relationships" and "back-door friendship gambits". Yet the reality of a lot of real-world dating is slow builds (months to years) through friendships that have potential for more. DNL has recognised this more in recent years, and as he says there is a lot of skills overlap between non-romantic and romantic relationships.

That problem only gets amplified with age, at least in my experience. The pressure for fast results only increases when you feel "behind." Or "really behind." It can feel demoralizing to have to invest years into something that your peers stumbled into during high school without trying. None of my male pals were studs; the one with the most partners in his life still never got beyond the high side of average at 6 or 7 before he settled into a LTR. I would need six lifetimes to reach six lovers. It took me a near decade to string along three dates.

My problem is a lot of DNL's "slow build, live your best life, find your tribe" advice is stuff I basically did for my teens and 20's, and even into my early 30's. While I was more shy about the geek stuff when I was younger, because it was less socially accepted (even the anime industry was more "fringe" in 2002 than it is now), I still was living a geeky life with pals into the same stuff I was. I found my tribe. I lived my best life, as well as I could. On the whole everyone found me memorable and/or a good friend; to this day I occasionally run into someone online or off who maybe had a few interactions with me 20+ years ago and it stuck, and in a good way. The problem is none of that shifted into romance. There IS a lot of "skills overlap" between "making friends" and "finding lovers," but there is still a difference between the two. It may only be slight or paper thin, but it exists. And I never crossed the plane, as it were. I was never the one anyone crushed on. I was never the one anyone saw as a sexual being or possible romantic partner. No one ever recommended me to single friends, relatives, or associates (the way they did others in my clique). And they still don't.

We can all use more friends, but my problem isn't knowing how to do that. I can do that, and do that easily. I can make coworkers or complete strangers laugh without even trying (I have to actively focus on NOT being funny at work). Just a sliver of imagination is enough to fascinate most people, which I consider a useless parlor trick. The problem is that shift from being considered "interesting" to "****able".

A problem in general with the older virgin community is the sense that time is against you; because it usually is. In general, it would be good for me to start going to MeetUps and bolster my social circle. In practice, that means a lot of investment in finite spare time which may be fun, but it may take a long time to reap romantic results, if at all. Especially if I think the same pattern will repeat. My new friends will likely find me perfectly charming, funny, intelligent and creative...and still never even entertain the idea of me dating their friend/sister/cousin/niece/mother/grandmother/grand piano. Plus, even if I stumble into a relationship, whatever years I put into it won't be back. If I have a relationship for 3 years that doesn't work, now I am 40-something and still have many of the same problems. I wonder if that is a reason why many former "older virgins" just married or got engaged to their first lover. I refuse to believe all of them just got it so perfect on the first try.

4) One thing that really helped me was getting promoted at work into roles where I manage people and lead teams. You have to develop relationships with people that are quite emotionally close, though of course entirely non-sexual and non-romantic, because you can't be a good manager and inspire people just by being a machine. But you can't be a doormat either - there are times where you have to have difficult conversations and lay down the law. That may not be viable for you, but maybe there is some kind of volunteering or mentoring you could find that's similar?

I actually have been promoted at work, or at least transferred to a different department for drastically more pay, where I don't manage anyone or interact with as many people as the call center on a daily basis.

HOWEVER, I do know what you mean. For a few months starting last year, because I'd been there for 3.5 years and because of various staff shortages and new ideas, I got to help in mentoring some of the new/temp workers my company always brings in during tax season. I actually liked that role and on the whole did well. I hadn't realized just how experienced I'd become until then; there wasn't a question a newbie asked that I couldn't answer. While I tried to be encouraging I also had to be critical, especially to my supervisors, if someone couldn't cut the mustard or was struggling too much. It didn't come with a pay change or title shift, but I liked the role. But the newer position in the other department was too tempting to refuse (i.e. a 30% or more hike in salary). It has bothered me a little that despite all of my work history I have never officially been in charge of anyone. Even in places where I was promoted, I never was a manager. I was just the guy who had been around a while who had experience.

I've run role playing games online and off for years of time; while that isn't quite the same as a professional level some of the same dynamics factor in. I don't really have a problem with being in some authority, as rare as it is. While I usually try to be easygoing and a funny Mr. Niceguy, I also know when that doesn't cut it with some people or situations in that context. The thing is, with dating, I am not in charge. I have no authority over anyone, and it would be creepy if I did. If anything, I am at a tactical disadvantage. I'm going in with nothing. It isn't that I have a bad hand; I don't even have any cards. I need the success more than the other person does. Dating over 40 isn't easy for anyone (especially women), but I'm not even a has-been; I'm a never-was.

Volunteering or mentoring aren't bad ideas. I am a little wary of trying to supplement a lack of experience with situations where I have management authority, because the dynamics are different. I liked my brief mentoring role that I had during the winter/spring, and thought for what I had to do, I did it well.

[KMR]

Plus, even if I stumble into a relationship, whatever years I put into it won't be back. If I have a relationship for 3 years that doesn't work, now I am 40-something and still have many of the same problems.

This is only true if you believe that the only worthwhile goal for all of this is finding a life-long partner, rather than valuing a relationship for its own sake even if it doesn't last. I could just as easily have this attitude toward all of my past relationships, given that I'm still unmarried and currently single at 36, but I don't. My relationships meant a lot to me. They brought me happiness. They shaped who I am as a person. They were significant pieces of my life for those times in my life. Some have transitioned into close friendships that I still cherish. Am I a little sad that I'm no closer to being married at my current age and will be quite a bit older before I get there (if I ever do)? Sure. But I never truly think of it as time wasted when I look back on it.

It also seems a bit contradictory of you to say this while also being concerned that your inevitable fate will be to marry your first lover by default. So which do you actually believe? That the only truly worthwhile relationship is the one that lasts? Or that there's value in the possibility of forming multiple relationships throughout your life as a stepping stone toward finding the one that's right for you?

Also, I'm curious as to exactly which of the "same problems" you're expecting to have when you go back to dating after this hypothetical 3-year relationship. You presumably won't be a virgin anymore. You'll have had practical experience with numerous stages of dating and relationships. Your disbelief that someone could be interested in dating you should be reduced at least somewhat; even if you still struggle with the feelings of disbelief, you could use this relationship as a piece of evidence to challenge your jerkbrain. So is it just your growing age that you're really concerned about in this scenario?

[Datelessman]

This is only true if you believe that the only worthwhile goal for all of this is finding a life-long partner, rather than valuing a relationship for its own sake even if it doesn't last. I could just as easily have this attitude toward all of my past relationships, given that I'm still unmarried and currently single at 36, but I don't. My relationships meant a lot to me. They brought me happiness. They shaped who I am as a person. They were significant pieces of my life for those times in my life. Some have transitioned into close friendships that I still cherish. Am I a little sad that I'm no closer to being married at my current age and will be quite a bit older before I get there (if I ever do)? Sure. But I never truly think of it as time wasted when I look back on it.

It also seems a bit contradictory of you to say this while also being concerned that your inevitable fate will be to marry your first lover by default. So which do you actually believe? That the only truly worthwhile relationship is the one that lasts? Or that there's value in the possibility of forming multiple relationships throughout your life as a stepping stone toward finding the one that's right for you?

Deep down I am not laser focused on a "life-long partner" (or LLP) at all. The idea of spending the rest of my life with my first lover actually terrifies me and only adds more pressure to everything. At best I am only looking to "date around," I suppose it could be called "casual dating" or "short term" dating. I'm not completely opposed to marrying my first lover as a concept, provided it was a great relationship and it sorted out that way naturally. But it is not what I am looking for, and I am anxious I would always be "wondering if I quit while I was ahead" for it, which would stink. I'm not looking for every DM as "future wifey."

Ideally, the path of relationships is we explore when we're younger, experiment a bit and figure out who we are, who we want and what we like, and then after that start searching for long term options from a place of experience. That way if you do find someone, it isn't made out of desperation, but knowing this person fits above others. Again, ideally.

The problem for older virgins is we never got to do that at a socially acceptable age. I'm still in the "dating around because I have no clue what I want" phase, which would be fine for high school or college, but by 40 is viewed as immature. And this isn't just a hypothetical I could hide until a third date; if I was setting up an online profile on OKC or POF, I have to set whether I want a LTR or LLP or short-term/casual for the algorithms to work properly. And for my age cohort, a 40 year old unmarried man who is not looking for a long term thing can easily be misunderstood as "immature" or "commitment-phobic." It is not uncommon to find single 40 year old men who don't want to settle down; I just don't think being lumped into that group does me any favors.

And yes, I know that many people are single in their 40's for various reasons. Some are divorced or separated from a LTR after many years. Some decided to focus on raising their kids until they were old enough to tend to themselves, or be watched by someone else. Some are even widows/widowers (especially in the Covid-19 era). None of that is my situation, though, so I can't glom onto that subgroup.

Of course, to avoid that, I could just admit right off that I am a 40 year old virgin. There used to be someone on the main forum (who occasionally posted here ages ago), K-J, who used to be a strong advocate for that. He claimed it helped set himself apart from other men (as someone who didn't lose his virginity until his 30's) and the honesty helped weed out wrong suitors -- sort of the extension of DNL's "if they use this one fact about you to reject you, then they're not for you" motto. I don't want to go into any relationship, short or otherwise, admitting to one of my shameful secrets before she knows much else about me, because I find it embarrassing and stressful. It also does me no favors because it limits my dating pool further, and I can't afford to limit it at all. The social opinion of older virgins is not positive regardless of how I carry myself; many otherwise perfectly compatible women would avoid me the second they knew, as a knee-jerk reaction, if I did so immediately.

Perhaps as an example, I actually do know one woman in my social circle who is single and very much my type; she is also the ex of one of my friends. The problem is that she is very much only interested in LTR's and every few years returns to FB when her latest one implodes or ends poorly and swears off dating anyone. I am not looking for a LTR and feel that deliberately seeking someone out who is, is dishonest. We are at different life stages; she wants to settle down and I want to start up. Those are not compatible.

Also, I'm curious as to exactly which of the "same problems" you're expecting to have when you go back to dating after this hypothetical 3-year relationship. You presumably won't be a virgin anymore. You'll have had practical experience with numerous stages of dating and relationships. Your disbelief that someone could be interested in dating you should be reduced at least somewhat; even if you still struggle with the feelings of disbelief, you could use this relationship as a piece of evidence to challenge your jerkbrain. So is it just your growing age that you're really concerned about in this scenario?

The growing age thing in that scenario, yes.

This comic by Sarah Andersen captures my sense of disbelief well; it's just adorable when SHE does it: https://tapas.io/episode/73563

[Enail]

All this worrying at it from different angles, going round and round gaming out the different scenarios populated with people built out of your axiety and making justifications why nothing could ever work - you must know, on some level, that it's not helpful. Don't you? None of it will ever make anything change. But you keep doing it. So it gets to be a question of whether you actually want things to change, or if you just want to reassure yourself it can't possibly change so you don't have to change anything.

- If you want things to change you need to do something, whether that's ask 500 people out on tindr at absolute random or work on the root issue keeping you from doing anything else with professional help (of the self-help sort if therapy you can afford isn't findable, though I think a real-life person would be better). 

-If you can't bear to risk things changing and having to confront these things that scare you, I think you'll be happier if you recognize that and decide to leave it be, focus your energy on figuring out other things that can make your life closer to what you'd like it to be.

[Datelessman]

- If you want things to change you need to do something, whether that's ask 500 people out on tindr at absolute random or work on the root issue keeping you from doing anything else with professional help (of the self-help sort if therapy you can afford isn't findable, though I think a real-life person would be better). 

I plan to try the Moodgym you recommended. It actually isn't free anymore, and charges approximately $27 for annual access. At $2.50 a month, that is more than a bargain, but I've had to replace my debit card for security reasons. Once that's cleared up I'll register.

A real-life therapist might be better, but if you think I'd be incapable of doing "round and round gaming" of these scenarios with a real person, you may be mistaken. It also is all a matter of finding the right therapist, whether my insurance covers it and how much, and allotting the time. More free time is DEFINITELY one of those things I miss about being younger.

Sorting out the disbelief factor is the key, I think and you suggested. I could have 500 people on Tindr want to date me and I'd find a way to explain away all of it (especially since many women may be a bit "thirsty" after two years of social distancing). I can't succeed until I can consider that a viable outcome.

-If you can't bear to risk things changing and having to confront these things that scare you, I think you'll be happier if you recognize that and decide to leave it be, focus your energy on figuring out other things that can make your life closer to what you'd like it to be.

I've effectively done that for years worth of time. It could be argued I started doing that younger than I should have. Having rotten life events like unemployment, general stress about money, housing court, tending to grandma or my mother's poor health/cancer happen helped prolong these periods, as it gave me FAR more important things to sap my energy. And the fetish writing was in part an attempt to put this stuff into the same box that I put all other fantastic desires which are fun to write about or imagine but aren't things which are possible for me to have -- like super powers or living in space or a magical realm or being a mutant or so on.

But every now and then, especially after birthdays, I take a look around and realize it isn't quite the same. It's not like super powers or traveling the galaxy or fighting half-demon tournaments. Other people have managed this, including just about everyone I personally know. And with age comes regret about prior lost opportunities or failings. The last 2 years of Covid-19 haven't helped, as many of us have been in a kind of "pause" since March 2020.

In 2017 I called it "Zen" on my blog; wanting to reach a place where I no longer cared and didn't have those periods of regret or pangs of loneliness anymore. Then, of course, many things in my life and life in general got more challenging and time consuming. I settle into routine and I like routine; work, tend to what mother needs, eat, unwind with geekiness, repeat. But sometimes that just isn't always enough. And I usually just "feel my feels" for a bit, spit out a blog post, and go about my life. But now I'm 40, and Judd Apatow has made that some pop culture virginal touchstone, or something. I'm middle aged, or on the cusp of it. Time is finite and I don't have as much as I used to.

The timing would be better once housing court is over and my mother's cancer is no longer a factor. The problem is the former may take years, and the latter won't end until my mother dies. And I would rather that not be for as long as possible. And by then I could be 50 or 60 with the same dilemma.

[Enail]

Ah, that's too bad Moodgym's not free anymore. I hope it's helpful once you get the chance to give it a go.  As far as therapists, I think one who's got a bit more focused an approach would probably better than one that lets you go round and round on scenarios, so that might be another factor to, uh, factor in.

It's understandable to sometimes need to spend my time feeling it. It's not so much that I don't think you shouldn't do that, as that I think it might be a good idea to consciously steer away from planning out dire scenarios and reasons you can't succeed. Maybe just try and notice when you're doing that and acknowledge to yourself that might be anxiety talking, and refocus to something else?

[inbloomer]

Perhaps as an example, I actually do know one woman in my social circle who is single and very much my type; she is also the ex of one of my friends. The problem is that she is very much only interested in LTR's and every few years returns to FB when her latest one implodes or ends poorly and swears off dating anyone. I am not looking for a LTR and feel that deliberately seeking someone out who is, is dishonest. We are at different life stages; she wants to settle down and I want to start up. Those are not compatible.

That's another thing you could do tomorrow. You could contact everyone in your social circle who 1) Is at all plausible as a partner, taking the lowest possible bar; and 2) You've had enough previous contact with that it wouldn't come as a total bolt from the blue; and either try to get a conversation going or suggest meeting up for a coffee or a drink. If none of them lead anywhere then at least that's something concrete you've tried, as opposed to going round yet another loop of pre-emptive "why it wouldn't work" justification.

If you're repeatedly writing long essays about why you've accepted the current state of affairs then you haven't really. But things can only ever change if you're prepared to push outside your comfort zone - and quite possibly endure a fair bit of disappointment, awkwardness and embarrassment before anything goes right. As Enail says, if you really can't do either of those then you probably do need professional help to move forward.

[Datelessman]

Ah, that's too bad Moodgym's not free anymore. I hope it's helpful once you get the chance to give it a go.  As far as therapists, I think one who's got a bit more focused an approach would probably better than one that lets you go round and round on scenarios, so that might be another factor to, uh, factor in.

It's understandable to sometimes need to spend my time feeling it. It's not so much that I don't think you shouldn't do that, as that I think it might be a good idea to consciously steer away from planning out dire scenarios and reasons you can't succeed. Maybe just try and notice when you're doing that and acknowledge to yourself that might be anxiety talking, and refocus to something else?

At $2.50 a month (even if you pay it all annually), Moodgym's pretty close. I mean, a large dinner for two people at a fast food joint can come to nearly $27. In terms of a therapist I probably would need one who was more focused and confrontational without seeming too demeaning or bullying. I also am not even sure what gender of therapist I would be comfortable with. Most are women, including the one I had for a few years in high school (who blamed everything on my mother more than even I did, which only led to me getting defensive). But, not all. Real therapy would mean telling a live human being things I have never said aloud to another person. Even on the extremely rare occasion my virginity is discussed among the few (male) friends of mine who know, it is mostly in reference or allusion. Am I more willing to be as emotionally honest with a male or female therapist? I honestly don't know. I haven't been in that position for at least 22 years, and I wasn't as hung up about that stuff when I was in high school. I'd had a date, eventually; I thought things would sort out.

I know it's my anxiety talking. The problem is it comes with the foundation of actual evidence and lived experience. I've had things go completely wrong in my life at every angle many, many, many times. I have no measure of success with a woman romantically. I may be aware intellectually that anxiety is heightening things, but at the moment "naming it and refocusing" feels like saying, "No, there is no speeding bus coming at me. That is just my eyes feeding visual information to my brain. If I stand here and be confident, nothing bad will happen." I'm interested in what exercises about that Moodgym offers regarding that.

That's another thing you could do tomorrow. You could contact everyone in your social circle who 1) Is at all plausible as a partner, taking the lowest possible bar; and 2) You've had enough previous contact with that it wouldn't come as a total bolt from the blue; and either try to get a conversation going or suggest meeting up for a coffee or a drink. If none of them lead anywhere then at least that's something concrete you've tried, as opposed to going round yet another loop of pre-emptive "why it wouldn't work" justification.

If you're repeatedly writing long essays about why you've accepted the current state of affairs then you haven't really. But things can only ever change if you're prepared to push outside your comfort zone - and quite possibly endure a fair bit of disappointment, awkwardness and embarrassment before anything goes right. As Enail says, if you really can't do either of those then you probably do need professional help to move forward.

The only person in my social circle who meets both criteria is the one woman I mentioned. All the rest are married, engaged, otherwise already in a LTR, or have moved far out of state (like Texas). If this were not true I would have already explored these resources. And I am happy for all of them and have no sour grapes.

And trust me, I have gone back and forth in my mind about that one woman many times. Including trying to justify to myself that I should attempt to pursue her despite knowing she is not seeking "casual" relationships and that she has told me many times (including this month) that she is avidly taking a break from dating. This especially is because she has a predictable pattern; whenever she finds a new beau, she all but vanishes on FB. Then after 1-3 years when it doesn't work out and they break up, she is back and complaining (at times to me personally) how men stink and she is tired and wants a break from dating to focus on herself and her own life. I agree and allow the space. Then in a few months I see her sharing smiling photos of some dude and then her status changes, and I don't hear from her much for a while. I value our friendship and am content with it, and I usually interpret her often blunt statements to me whenever this happens to me that she is "taking a break from dating" as a soft way of saying even if she is not on a break, I am not her type. Which is fine! I just feel it would be selfish and manipulative to try going, "I agree, you should take a break from dating and focus on yourself, and a good way to start would be going on a Schrodinger's Date with me," or words thereabouts. When a woman tells me she doesn't want to date or is seeking only long term commitments, I take her at her word. I'm funny that way. And if those statements change with someone else, that just means I am not her type. That's hardly an unusual outcome.

I can "endure a fair bit of disappointment, awkwardness and embarrassment" in dating. It's all I expect. The thing is, I get a lot of that in the rest of my life without asking for it. Any I receive trying to date people is by choice, that I invite myself. And if I am going to go through that again I want to be prepared to capitalize properly in the event I get the opposite. Because it would be a shame to go through all that and not take a yes for an answer if I ever get one. Then it's all pointless.

Not sure what you meant by "taking the lowest possible bar," though.

[Enail]

I know it's my anxiety talking. The problem is it comes with the foundation of actual evidence and lived experience. I've had things go completely wrong in my life at every angle many, many, many times. I have no measure of success with a woman romantically. I may be aware intellectually that anxiety is heightening things, but at the moment "naming it and refocusing" feels like saying, "No, there is no speeding bus coming at me. That is just my eyes feeding visual information to my brain. If I stand here and be confident, nothing bad will happen." I'm interested in what exercises about that Moodgym offers regarding that.

Okay, what's the bus? Is it you asking out a woman and them saying no/humiliating you? Because, even if that bus is real and not something your brain thinks it has accurate information to know is there but doesn't, that's a bus that can only do anything to you if you do ask them out, right? Which you're not doing at the moment. So what is imagining exactly and in great detail every possible way it could crush you into the sidewalk and exactly why it would be right to hit you, doing to help or protect you, when you're not planning on doing the thing that you're sure will cause a bus to hit you any time soon, every single time you think about anything whatsoever to do with the subject?  

I can think of only one productive thing it could do for you, which is imagine the worst that could happen and how you could deal with it for any given specific action you're deciding whether to do in the near future, once, so that you can use it to decide yes or no if you're willing to risk that worst. Any time you do that that isn't purely focused on making a yes or no decision about a specific course of action, isn't protecting you from anything, because there's nothing whatsoever you can do about "maybe awful things will happen if I do or don't do any number of things I could theoretically do at some point in my life."  Even if the bus is real, thinking about what it could do to you might feel like doing something to protect yourself, but it isn't. The bus isn't going to hit you while you're typing on the internet, and if it was going to, then none of the scenarios you're imagining would protect you from it, that's not even the bus you were imagining!

So, there's that one productive thing it could do for you. And then there's all the other things it does, like use up emotional energy that you could use towards actually doing something you want to do (whether in the dating realm or not), and carve grooves in your brain that make it easier and easier to think those thoughts and harder and harder to think different ones, and convince yourself that they're more and more right, because how could they not be?  As far as your brain knows, you've basically seen them happen a gazillion times, in your imagination.

[inbloomer]

If it's clear in your mind that this person isn't interested and would say no if asked, that's fine, draw a line under it and move on. But if it's the same friend you've talked about before, you've spun out all kinds of long and unnecessary arguments and debates with yourself about it. If dating someone is not a possibility, then going deep into the hypothetical ethics of doing so is just wasted effort - and I am challenging you on whether, deep down, you know there are things you could do but you don't want the discomfort of trying them.

If there are no other possibilities within your current social circle, I absolutely sympathise with that, but then you need to find some ways of meeting some new people, within the constraints your life undoubtedly has. I and others here have suggested various options.

By lowest possible bar I mean that trying to get to know someone a bit better than you currently do should be something you pursue by default, only not if you're really getting a spidey-sense about them. From things you've said before, I somewhat get the feeling that you see the process of dating as a set of formalities to reach a destination that's already been decided upon, as opposed to a run of experiments where the final result will only crystallise as you do them.

[Hielario]

Sigh. I'm SO offering you a blowjob if I'm ever in NY.

Honestly, I can't blame you for being unable to believe something when the universe has been telling you all your life that it can't happen. At this point, it would be like expecting snow in Seville. However, there's something in your posts that has confused me for a while:

The lack of a dating past doesn't do me any favors, either. It isn't just about the lack of experience, which is huge. But it's about what women in my demographics may think about that. I always stuck to the "half your age plus 8" credo of dating. I genuinely do not like dating people who are far younger than me; it makes me feel like a creepy old man. At 33 I did a speed dating event at the NYCC and most of the women there were a day over 21, and I felt like either a vampire or Dorian Grey talking to them. So while it wouldn't be too squicky to date someone who was, say, 28, I would rather stick to someone in their 30's close to my own age. How far in the other direction to I want to go? I don't know; likely not over 50 and even over 45 would cause me to pause a bit. To the point, it is socially considered unusual for a single man over 40 in that demographic to have never been married and have no children. I don't want to say "red flag" because that's negative. But it might invite inquiries, even internally, that are not favorable. The most common is that a guy like that is "immature" or "non-committal." I could place the blame on tending to mom and grandma for years, but that seems like an excuse and I don't think most women would buy it. Most men go through almost superhuman lengths to date. Men date hours before they are being shipped to war, or are dying of cancer, or whose spouse is in the ICU. "What, your mom needed round the clock care?" is the natural follow up question. Sure, from 2020 to now I have Covid and the Conservi-Klan to blame, but what about for the decades before? "I was too shy to try and then life got worse," is not the answer most women want to hear in a bistro.

Dating now would be asking for whatever single woman I happened to encounter to be the first to date a 40 year old virgin who is still living with his mother, is a comic geek, amid an endemic and public anger at the end of Roe. That is a tall, tall, tall lift, man. That's like a no death run of Ninja Gaiden on NES. I never crossed the divide back when Bill Clinton was president. What are the chances I would now, when my cohort of dating partners are older and wiser? I guess that is why some "late bloomers" go way younger (that and as a creepy ego stroke), but that would make me feel guilty, like I was taking advantage of inexperience. A 28 year old woman is no child, but I could easily dismiss any positive attention as, "oh, she just doesn't know any better; it would be cruel to take advantage."

Why do you always treat your whole situation as something they would know immediately?  Outside of my social circle, most of the women I've tried to date never even asked. It's not the kind of thing that comes up in a normal conversation unless you've known each other for a while. Same than my Asperger's, or my miserable school years, or my weird family life, it's a very personal thing.

They don't need to know that.

And if, somehow,  the conversation goes there (or they try to push the question, like the last one I met   ) there's a lot you can do at your hypothetical bistro. You can change the subject, or say:

It's complicated.
It's a private matter and you would like to know each other better first.
You don't want to talk about it because you don't want to go on a boring, miserable rant and sour the mood.
You don't like to talk about it since it involves the private matters of other women (gentlemanly!).
You haven't gotten laid/had a date since the Clinton administration (You can use this one in bed to excuse your clumsiness too, they say it all the time in the movies!).

If you feel bad about lying or obfuscating? Consider the fact you're not doing it to manipulate them or obtain something from them. You're avoiding their prejudice, which is a survival matter for many.  You can give them full disclosure about it at some point in the future, when they know and like enough about the rest of you that it won't be such a big thing. (Or, to be crass, after they've fucked you. Everything sounds perfectly fine in the afterglow). A cultured person like you should know that the impact of a piece of information can be very different depending of when it is communicated. I know you don't want to be one of those, but it's nowhere near some of the lies and tricks I've seen other men use. You can...dosify the truth. I mean, do you seriously think women your age don't have some skeletons of their own in the closet?


Regarding age, I get not wanting to get in social trouble or seem creepy in one extreme, and not being interested in people old enough to be your progenitor, or who would condescend and belittle you, in the other. But other than that, you sound strangely picky for someone who's so frustrated. And your idea that you're somehow "taking advantage" of someone younger feels weirdly condescending. They're capable, rational adults: they can make their own decisions (And sometimes they're turned on by older men).

So you think a relationship with you would be difficult? Don't worry so much about that, because everything in life is difficult. Many relationships, if not all, are difficult. Some of my classmates at university got in worse messes! I mean, you're the son of a single mother, you should have some perspective; Marilyn Hamel had to dedicate an entire chapter to all the problems it brings.

I am familiar with sexual roleplaying; I've dabbled once or twice in it. One of the few women who's ever been interested in being sexual with me liked it. And years after, I've found that it is popular with a certain crowd at the RPG forum I frequent these days (still haven't done much).  For me, the only absurdity is all the other regular people doing it - and their partners seeing nothing wrong with it!

[silly mode on]You should mention on that fetish writing account of yours that you're very frustrated and put a donation link called "get-the-author-laid fund". Kill two birds with one stone! [/silly mode off] (I'd suggest it for real but I suspect it would be against the TOS of a lot of platforms and the laws of several states). Also, regarding the one who lied about her age...I'm confused, how young are we talking about? So young that it would get you in trouble with the law?

Regarding that woman you know...have you ever asked her what's her deal? Or told her that you're worried because she seems to be stuck in a vicious cycle? That's not telling her to date you instead, that's just a considerate friend's behaviour.

Frankly, about the whole "get it done profesionally" thing, I see two possible courses of action if you're actually comfortable with it:

1) Do the Las Vegas thing following as many protection procedures as you can, and replicate decontamination procedures for chemical/nuclear/biological exposure as close as it is possible before seeing your mother again.

2) Figure out how to make it in NY in a way that still feels special for you & as less exploitative as possible.

But I think you should get it done ASAP either way, even if you risk you family's life, because as terrible as it sounds, I don't think any of the external constraints you cite is going to improve in the short term, and you should try to enjoy yourself while you're still able to do it without pharmacological help.

Were I an enterprising prostitute, I'd invest in a door with a nice, comfortable hole and offer services at reduced price through the hole. Maybe put a little peephole so the clients can be sure there's a nude lady with a bottle of lube at the other side and not some maniac with a pair of garden scissors. Covid-safe!

[Datelessman]

Okay, what's the bus? Is it you asking out a woman and them saying no/humiliating you? Because, even if that bus is real and not something your brain thinks it has accurate information to know is there but doesn't, that's a bus that can only do anything to you if you do ask them out, right? Which you're not doing at the moment. So what is imagining exactly and in great detail every possible way it could crush you into the sidewalk and exactly why it would be right to hit you, doing to help or protect you, when you're not planning on doing the thing that you're sure will cause a bus to hit you any time soon, every single time you think about anything whatsoever to do with the subject?  

I can think of only one productive thing it could do for you, which is imagine the worst that could happen and how you could deal with it for any given specific action you're deciding whether to do in the near future, once, so that you can use it to decide yes or no if you're willing to risk that worst. Any time you do that that isn't purely focused on making a yes or no decision about a specific course of action, isn't protecting you from anything, because there's nothing whatsoever you can do about "maybe awful things will happen if I do or don't do any number of things I could theoretically do at some point in my life."  Even if the bus is real, thinking about what it could do to you might feel like doing something to protect yourself, but it isn't. The bus isn't going to hit you while you're typing on the internet, and if it was going to, then none of the scenarios you're imagining would protect you from it, that's not even the bus you were imagining!

So, there's that one productive thing it could do for you. And then there's all the other things it does, like use up emotional energy that you could use towards actually doing something you want to do (whether in the dating realm or not), and carve grooves in your brain that make it easier and easier to think those thoughts and harder and harder to think different ones, and convince yourself that they're more and more right, because how could they not be?  As far as your brain knows, you've basically seen them happen a gazillion times, in your imagination.

I'll admit I didn't think that metaphor through very well, and you most certainly did.

As an update, my debit card situation is resolved and I have started Moodgym. I'm on the first module and it is very early into it. Since it was created by Australian academics, it comes with the side benefit of learning some Aussie slang. "Stuff it up" is akin to "mess up" here, for instance.

If it's clear in your mind that this person isn't interested and would say no if asked, that's fine, draw a line under it and move on. But if it's the same friend you've talked about before, you've spun out all kinds of long and unnecessary arguments and debates with yourself about it. If dating someone is not a possibility, then going deep into the hypothetical ethics of doing so is just wasted effort - and I am challenging you on whether, deep down, you know there are things you could do but you don't want the discomfort of trying them.

If there are no other possibilities within your current social circle, I absolutely sympathise with that, but then you need to find some ways of meeting some new people, within the constraints your life undoubtedly has. I and others here have suggested various options.

By lowest possible bar I mean that trying to get to know someone a bit better than you currently do should be something you pursue by default, only not if you're really getting a spidey-sense about them. From things you've said before, I somewhat get the feeling that you see the process of dating as a set of formalities to reach a destination that's already been decided upon, as opposed to a run of experiments where the final result will only crystallise as you do them.  

I see dating as a process where I have to sacrifice a chunk of my already finite spare time and emotional energy (which is often invested in things like work and tending to my mother) in order to put a presentation of my best self out there in a manner which is appealing without being patently dishonest for a process in which I will be ignored or rejected 99% of the time (and that is an optimistic estimate). For the moment I am most interested in getting to a place where if that 1% comes through, I pounce on it instead of dismissing it out of disbelief. Because if I can't, then the entire exercise is for naught.

I forget when I mentioned this friend in the past, but I've drawn a line under her and moved on a year or so ago. It just was an example I was citing to KMR which was fresh, since she's recently repeated her pattern (she's broken up with her latest steady so she is on my FB feed now, in her "I am not wanting to date but here are all my pics hanging out at local bars having fun" phase). It was only recently when I realized that just because she may tell ME things like "I want to take a break from dating" or "I don't want to date friends," doesn't mean they are absolutes for everyone. And no, there is no one else in my immediate social circle who is available and lives remotely close. I have another recently divorced single friend with two adorable twin girls, but she's in Texas.

[Datelessman]

Sigh. I'm SO offering you a blowjob if I'm ever in NY.

Um...thanks but no thanks. I don't swing that way. But its the thought that counts.

Why do you always treat your whole situation as something they would know immediately?  Outside of my social circle, most of the women I've tried to date never even asked. It's not the kind of thing that comes up in a normal conversation unless you've known each other for a while. Same than my Asperger's, or my miserable school years, or my weird family life, it's a very personal thing.

They don't need to know that.

And if, somehow,  the conversation goes there (or they try to push the question, like the last one I met   ) there's a lot you can do at your hypothetical bistro. You can change the subject, or say:

It's complicated.
It's a private matter and you would like to know each other better first.
You don't want to talk about it because you don't want to go on a boring, miserable rant and sour the mood.
You don't like to talk about it since it involves the private matters of other women (gentlemanly!).
You haven't gotten laid/had a date since the Clinton administration (You can use this one in bed to excuse your clumsiness too, they say it all the time in the movies!).

The opening parts of most first dates are mutually noting basic information about each other, and making sure it synchs up with whatever profile or other information which was glanced at going in. Even in more spontaneous situations, the beginning is always just going over some basic facts. It is not unusual at all to mention if you've been divorced, broken up from a LTR, and/or have children. In fact for my cohort (age 30-45), one or all of those are very common, especially in New York. To be a 40 year old man who has no children and never been married isn't unheard of, but it's different. Against the norm, and not in a cool way, like a unique facial tattoo. And while, no, it's hardly automatic for anyone to pry, it risks them making internal assumptions which do not benefit me.

If I were pressed I'd likely say some combination of many of your examples (with the exception of "not going on a boring, miserable rant and sour the mood," because making it seem like I have an axe to grind somewhere is a bad vibe on a first date, or any date). I'd be willing to cop to not having dated "in a long time" but I wouldn't define that as, "before Obama was elected". I could be a lawyer about it and count speed-dating events as "dating," but that only gets me to pre-Trump. I don't think any of them would really resolve any inquiry and if anything just make it seem like I am hiding something (as few men resist the opportunity to mention a prior relationship), but I'd have no alternatives.

If you feel bad about lying or obfuscating? Consider the fact you're not doing it to manipulate them or obtain something from them. You're avoiding their prejudice, which is a survival matter for many.  You can give them full disclosure about it at some point in the future, when they know and like enough about the rest of you that it won't be such a big thing. (Or, to be crass, after they've fucked you. Everything sounds perfectly fine in the afterglow). A cultured person like you should know that the impact of a piece of information can be very different depending of when it is communicated. I know you don't want to be one of those, but it's nowhere near some of the lies and tricks I've seen other men use. You can...dosify the truth. I mean, do you seriously think women your age don't have some skeletons of their own in the closet?

I know you mean well but I would hesitate to use the term "survival" anywhere near my dating issues. My plight is nowhere near comparable to someone who has to ponder the consequences of revealing their gender and/or sexual orientation to a potential date. The worst I face is some humiliation. Someone who is gay or transgender could be assaulted or killed if they miscalculate. Just dating while straight and female is far riskier.

I don't intend to ever reveal my V-Card ownership to anyone I am dating under any circumstance. My thoughts on that have evolved but that is where they are now. Since I have no interest in how few or many lovers a woman I am interested in has had, I don't consider this hypocrisy (I utterly reject the "Madonna/Whore Baloney"). I won't lie about being more experienced but I don't admit anything either. The advantage to dating at this age is by default, everyone will assume I am NOT a virgin. If I prove to be a lousy lay, well, so are most men. I plan to try my best, be receptive and listen to whatever I am told, but I assume sex is a skill which improves with practice and I've never been good at anything on the first try. I suppose my only contention is that being a virgin is A VALID EXCUSE for being a lousy lay, but I'd have to reveal it to use it, and I'd rather not. Revealing it post-coitus is iffy; it would really depend on the person and the mood. Some women who'd prefer not to sleep with a virgin if they knew could get upset and consider me a liar. I'll probably be very nervous in the events leading up to it. I've never taken off my shirt to anyone besides a doctor, and I am shy even when I do that, for instance. I just assumed I'd gut it out and hope no one notices.

Do some women my age "have some skeletons of their own in the closet?" Sure. I just don't think many of them are that bad in the grand scheme of things. Anxiety about their age, weight, some stretch marks, how they look without makeup or a push-up bra, their kids, having more than one cat, dying their hair to hide grey, etc. Maybe even a disability or chronic condition, or she's secretly a furry. None of that is really anything I would care about or sway me at all one way or another. If I didn't click with someone it wouldn't be for any of those reasons. I had to help my grandmother clean up after going to the bathroom as part of her care in my early 20's; learning my date has diabetes and takes some meds or their "youngest" is 20 isn't going to phase me. At this point the only "secrets" a woman could reveal that would be a hard nope would be either, "I was part of the January 6 uprising and the FBI doesn't know" or "In my spare time I protest at abortion clinics."

Regarding age, I get not wanting to get in social trouble or seem creepy in one extreme, and not being interested in people old enough to be your progenitor, or who would condescend and belittle you, in the other. But other than that, you sound strangely picky for someone who's so frustrated. And your idea that you're somehow "taking advantage" of someone younger feels weirdly condescending. They're capable, rational adults: they can make their own decisions (And sometimes they're turned on by older men).

In fairness, many younger women who are into older guys choose to be so because they feel older guys are more mature, experienced, and economically independent than dudes their age. I suppose I may be mature, but about the rest, well, in Jack Skellington voice, "Boy, won't THEY be surprised!"

It just seems like a power imbalance. I've seen more than a few "late bloomers" who deliberately seek that out and I always found it creepy. I have less in common with women who are too young and they only make me feel older. For example, I got into TMNT when it first came on in 1987. If a woman it too young, she wasn't even born then. Then I feel like I sat up out of a coffin if that comes up.

"Have you heard about GARGOYLES coming back as a comic?"
"No. I think when that show ended, I was in kindergarten."
*Feels myself age 100 years within ten seconds*

I am familiar with sexual roleplaying; I've dabbled once or twice in it. One of the few women who's ever been interested in being sexual with me liked it. And years after, I've found that it is popular with a certain crowd at the RPG forum I frequent these days (still haven't done much).  For me, the only absurdity is all the other regular people doing it - and their partners seeing nothing wrong with it!

[silly mode on]You should mention on that fetish writing account of yours that you're very frustrated and put a donation link called "get-the-author-laid fund". Kill two birds with one stone! [/silly mode off] (I'd suggest it for real but I suspect it would be against the TOS of a lot of platforms and the laws of several states). Also, regarding the one who lied about her age...I'm confused, how young are we talking about? So young that it would get you in trouble with the law?

Yes. As well as morally. I was not thrilled. None of those role plays were explicit, thankfully.

Congratulations on being the first person to comment on that part of my narrative. I genuinely thought those bits would garner the most attention. I guess this forum and DNL's other site are so kink-friendly that it comes off as pretty vanilla! I don't question why a woman who has a BF would also want to roleplay some pretty graphic stuff with her OC. I mean, I would be pretty weird if I had a kink but questioned someone else's. Actors do that stuff all the time.

In terms of the fetish writing on Deviantart, I could actually start a "donation" page or some paywall if I wanted. I'm not big time but if I did I likely would earn more then I ever got writing more general comic reviews. I deliberately haven't because with the inclusion of money comes certain expectations. Some of my donors may expect more stories, or with certain characters over others. So long as it is free and I do it in my spare time, there's no expectation. I'm a weirdo who doesn't always think of monetizing everything I do. I focus on my career only to the extent that I'd like to earn more and/or get promoted by satisfying my bosses and peers, but my job is just what I do for money. It really isn't a part of who I am at my core. I know some guys are like, "I am a stockbroker and if I am not broking stocks WHO AM I!?"

Regarding that woman you know...have you ever asked her what's her deal? Or told her that you're worried because she seems to be stuck in a vicious cycle? That's not telling her to date you instead, that's just a considerate friend's behaviour.

Her "deal" is she is trying to be an intelligent, single professional woman in NY and finding a guy who is able to satisfy her and not turn into a creep or a jerk is very challenging.

Frankly, about the whole "get it done profesionally" thing, I see two possible courses of action if you're actually comfortable with it:

1) Do the Las Vegas thing following as many protection procedures as you can, and replicate decontamination procedures for chemical/nuclear/biological exposure as close as it is possible before seeing your mother again.

2) Figure out how to make it in NY in a way that still feels special for you & as less exploitative as possible.

But I think you should get it done ASAP either way, even if you risk you family's life, because as terrible as it sounds, I don't think any of the external constraints you cite is going to improve in the short term, and you should try to enjoy yourself while you're still able to do it without pharmacological help.

Were I an enterprising prostitute, I'd invest in a door with a nice, comfortable hole and offer services at reduced price through the hole. Maybe put a little peephole so the clients can be sure there's a nude lady with a bottle of lube at the other side and not some maniac with a pair of garden scissors. Covid-safe!

I must say this is the first time anyone has ever referenced the "glory hole" from 1981's "PORKY'S" here. I've never seen that film but it used to be a staple of any mom-and-pop video rental place during the 80's and 90's (usually placed yards away from the section with a curtain in front of it), so I've seen the box many times.

In general, I know that I could visit a sex worker in NY. I know as a "john" my risk of arrest is very low and not every prostitute is enslaved by a violent pimp. And I know that despite the cliche, it is usually in a sex worker's best interest to be as healthy as possible. If I were to do that, I would rather got to Vegas for two reasons. The first being those risks I mentioned actually go down to zero, or far closer than in NY (i.e. legal sex workers there have mandatory health care and scheduled check ups). The second is that turning it into a mini-vacation where I got to a place where "what happens here stays here" would help the experience process into my head. It would hardly be what I ever wanted or intended, and attaching it to an outing will help me process it better than just being able to take the subway home and watch DVD's in my own room after. True, I would have to keep that secret for the rest of my life, but "I visited a sex worker" and "I had a one night stand with a rando at a bar" aren't far removed from each other; it's the social reactions and acceptance which differ. Doing that would mean I would likely have to self-isolate for at least 10 days later, which would mean being away from work and tending to mom for about two weeks. Neither are easily feasible. It's just an option I would explore if Covid wasn't a thing and I didn't have to save cash for a potential eviction. Which is also something I've changed my mind about over the years, if only for self interest.

[Hielario]

Well summarized.

OK, maybe it's the difference in age or a cultural thing. But now I think something escapes me, because simultaneously:
-Almost none of the ladies I tried to date through online sites in my 20s ever asked
-EVERYBODY else thought it was extremely weird when I mentioned that I never had a partner, so clearly it's just as uncommon, at least where I have lived.

You're probably right about the rant thing being a bad idea. I thought it could be a good distraction: since I've heard some women complain about how their date would just go on and on about their terrible ex, they would want to avoid setting off another of those rants/appreciate the good sense and the warning. But then again, you are right, people get bad vibes from anything these days.

But the point is not resolving the inquiry, it is avoiding or getting around the inquiry, a distraction without saying an outright lie. Or constructing a version of the truth that is incomplete but not false, maybe a little hyperbolic. People don't always want to go searching for a detailed, consistent truth, that's a lot of work and there's more important stuff to do.

I tried to highlight the fact that things like that are a necessity of life and therefore not inherently wrong. And as someone who actually has to ponder exactly that kind of matters? I know it's extremely urnorthodox, but I don't see much difference. First, because it is possible to be assaulted and nearly killed for way less than that. Life is inherently dangerous when it involves others. I took my possible queerness in stride because the problems are more or less more of the same but at least a version of me could get laid in exchange. And second, because we're talking of basic needs. Being physically and mentally starved of certain things is not better just because it won't kill you or won't do it directly. And now that I think of it, there's a third: you're actually vulnerable to way worse things than "some humiliation", are you aware of that? Just because you won't be beaten or raped doesn't mean things can't go horribly wrong.

Great! Hold on to that idea. It will help with your worries over being rejected because of your virginity. And it will make avoiding the question easier if they already have some pre-existing notion in their head that benefits you.

Being receptive and listening is already more than a lot of them do, so you have that going for you. And about the revelations, I was just giving you some options in case you felt iffy about keeping it secret or anything I was saying. Although it sounds like a "they" problem if they get angry about it, it's not like you lied about having an incurable STD or a billion dollars. And what I try to say is that people sometimes will excuse "unacceptable" things if they get told about them a posteriori rather than immediately. And that they have their own little lies, because you may not care but a lot of other men absolutely will. Anyway, you do you, it's your secrets.

Oh, do you know something I've found that helps with those worries about nerves? Grabbing an old bra from a female relative and practising how to open and close it without seeing.

I won't deny those reasons (it was vox populi around me that the guy running an academy I went to got a younger second wife due to those), but they aren't the only ones .

First time I hear the other thing, but oddly it makes sense to me. They're trying to use the illusion of the cool older guy, my mother used to recommend me that in high school, but It's not like I had the opportunity. The power imbalance...I recognise it might be there, but I think it's more complicated than that in both directions? Still kind of a mess, though.

Ooof. Good riddance. The things I've heard they do in the US to those convicted of that sort of "unlawful" sexual activity towards a minor are harsh, and it doesn't seem to matter an iota that they were asking for it or lying about their age.

I'm the first? Yay, kudos! Also: FIRST! God I always wanted to do that.

Don't bite the hand that strokes your crotch, huh? Smart. You're still the most normal one to me. I remember hearing someone complain about two druids in Neverwinter who only connected for cybering each other, and I was like "Why not screw each other for real".

And yeah, I understand your reasons for not wishing to monetize it. All of those are very valid. Also, judging from the comments of all the NSFW artists I peruse at twitter, all monetization systems more complicated than ko-fi are terrible headaches.

As americans in webcomics say: And what are you, chopped liver?

Gotta love those situations . Sometimes it makes me wonder if part of the problem for some of us is that we take people's words too seriously.

Would you believe it's by pure accident? I've never seen that one nor its box art. It's just a combination of Czech Fantasy and some ideas from gay porn. Also, the section with a curtain was the pornographic one, right? I've only seen that in american shows, down here it was just the closest shelf to the counter or a big folder on top of it to order them by name. Aaah, video stores...I'm nostalgic for them lately and don't know why. It's not like the movies were that great.

Yeah, I remembered that. I was suggesting you could find some way to achieve that mental effect without leaving NY and its lower contagion rate.

My fault. If it would mean leaving your mother alone for more than a week either way, it is unfeasible indeed.

Speaking of which, this thing I'm going to say is purely to compare attitudes and not an attempt to convince you or anything: Do you ever feel unsafe about the idea going to a completely unknown city for that? Yes, I did it during a trip to another city myself, but it was still a place and neighborhood I know well, since I studied there for years. If things went wrong or they tried to scam me, I knew where to run, where the police stations are, where to hide and/or find a room for the night (in case of losing the bus home), where are the underground stops... Doing that sort of thing in a place where I lack those abilities feels pretty dangerous to me. Is that a relevant factor for you? Why?

[Datelessman]

OK, maybe it's the difference in age or a cultural thing. But now I think something escapes me, because simultaneously:
-Almost none of the ladies I tried to date through online sites in my 20s ever asked
-EVERYBODY else thought it was extremely weird when I mentioned that I never had a partner, so clearly it's just as uncommon, at least where I have lived.  

Its not so much "asking." No woman who isn't a therapist working with a client is going to ask, "So tell me about your last relationship," or words thereabouts. Asking if someone has kids, especially in an older demographic, is more common. Children are a large part of life and part of figuring out compatibility is scheduling. An admission to having kids also implies, by application, that the person has had some kind of relationship before. It can even lead to a question about an ex, or a freely offered comment (i.e. "She takes them on weekends").

Mention of a previous long term relationship without children is rarely specifically asked, either. It is the kind of thing that comes out in general conversations. I've chatted with peers and co-workers of both sexes and different orientations in completely platonic, casual conversations, and eventually some mention of a spouse/ex/lover will come out, even with topics which you'd think weren't prying (i.e. "Oh, that? I saw that with my ex-wife a few years ago"). The difference is on a date both people are more focused on those conversations, and someone who both has no kids and NEVER mentions a previous relationship no matter what, especially if the other person does (again, as part of sharing experiences or opinions about things, not listing off histories), at least in my age group might get noticed more. The 20's are different, even if I didn't feel that way at the time.

For a simple example, when I made my first OKC profile ages ago (albeit in a fit of depression and self loathing), it freely admitted to my virginity. At the time the approach, so much as I had one, was to be TOO honest and either state or admit most of my self perceived flaws in the profile and all but dare someone to message me anyway. It was in the 2000's and I was about 23-24. I actually got my second ever date off of it, despite my best efforts. And to the woman's credit, she was pretty flirty despite the photograph I had being unflattering (she also admitted to having nude photographs of herself taken, without any prompting from me, which I didn't realize was a subtle hint at being open for such sexy times until nearly a decade later). I botched it out of disbelief, and nerves; I either came off as disinterested or too much effort to her. As a 23-24 year old, that kind of profile and admission made me potentially fascinating to that demographic. I was against the bell curve, but not so much that it was too weird for a small portion of single women. In retrospect, I should have been more tenacious. A part of me still hasn't forgiven myself for botching that date. I was an adult; I had no excuse. It is my case example that my disbelief is the date-killer.

Well, now I am 40, seeking 30-45 year olds (approximately). That same kind of profile with the same admissions would be seen as that of a basket case, and more of a repellant. I am no longer off the bell curve; I've fallen off the social romantic expectation cliff. The only kinds of people who are virgins at my age anyone ever hears about are spree shooters, serial killers, or fictional villains (or Red Herring characters) in crime dramas. The "adorkable" example of Andy from Judd Apatow's film has mostly faded from public consciousness in exchange to a seething army of woman-hating creeps online (and off, or in Congress, or the Supreme Court). Much like with fashion or exercise routines, what works in your 20's usually won't work a decade or two later. Lord knows bars and clubs are full of guys around my age who still think they're in their 20's and apply the same approaches, usually with poor results.

But the point is not resolving the inquiry, it is avoiding or getting around the inquiry, a distraction without saying an outright lie. Or constructing a version of the truth that is incomplete but not false, maybe a little hyperbolic. People don't always want to go searching for a detailed, consistent truth, that's a lot of work and there's more important stuff to do.

You're right that I shouldn't think of it about "resolving" the inquiry permanently. Sometimes I get caught up on thinking in absolutes. If you're a legendary artist like Steve Ditko, that just makes you "eccentric," but if you're a regular guy, its a bad habit to unlearn. I can't completely control what someone thinks of me and it'd be creepy if I could; the best I can do is steer it a little with presentation.

I tried to highlight the fact that things like that are a necessity of life and therefore not inherently wrong. And as someone who actually has to ponder exactly that kind of matters? I know it's extremely urnorthodox, but I don't see much difference. First, because it is possible to be assaulted and nearly killed for way less than that. Life is inherently dangerous when it involves others. I took my possible queerness in stride because the problems are more or less more of the same but at least a version of me could get laid in exchange. And second, because we're talking of basic needs. Being physically and mentally starved of certain things is not better just because it won't kill you or won't do it directly. And now that I think of it, there's a third: you're actually vulnerable to way worse things than "some humiliation", are you aware of that? Just because you won't be beaten or raped doesn't mean things can't go horribly wrong.

Your experience as someone who is bi-curious is certainly different and potentially more dangerous than mine as a cis straight male.

Life can be dangerous; from childhood into young adulthood I've been mugged at least 4-5 times. Two incidents were somewhat violent; once, when I was in junior high, a mugger put a boxcutter to my throat. A second incident around that period saw me get socked in the jaw by two assailants, who were arrested and I testified at their trial. Perhaps those incidents traumatized me more than I think and that could be part of the anxiety and over-planning.

I know in theory a date can potentially end violently for a man; some women are capable of being violent assailants, and a date (especially online) which turns into a trap for a robbery with one or more colluding dudes isn't unheard of. But they're statistically low enough that I don't avidly worry about them, beyond always meeting in public for that first date (or three). In contrast, most women who are attacked, murdered, and/or sexually assaulted are victims of a man they know, so any potential date has the not-insignificant odds of ending that way if things go horribly wrong. By and large, the majority of crime is male dominated (or encouraged within a society built and managed by men).

Great! Hold on to that idea. It will help with your worries over being rejected because of your virginity. And it will make avoiding the question easier if they already have some pre-existing notion in their head that benefits you.

It benefits by making it unlikely that any woman would guess as to how romantically inexperienced I really am. It hinders because her alternative conclusions are that I am immature and/or commitment phobic. Such things are hardly rare in guys, but it could require having to counteract that by being more impressive. Which then invites the question, "Okay, if this guy seems funny and pretty normal, why the **** has no other woman grabbed him yet?" But maybe not all women are as wary and jaded as I imagine, or as some of my friends who are women can project themselves to be.

This could be a case of me reading too much into Tumblr, magazine articles, and Twitter, but there can sometimes be a sense among many urban-centered women that "no good man goes wasted." That if a guy is a catch someone, somewhere will recognize him and lap him up, because "good men" are a minority. This element comes into play with dating while older, as a sort of general fog. Many men, of course, have even worse opinions about unmarried single women past a certain age, especially with kids, and I am not dismissing that or saying the gender reverse is worse. It just exists.

Oh, do you know something I've found that helps with those worries about nerves? Grabbing an old bra from a female relative and practising how to open and close it without seeing.

That's not a bad idea, but few of my female relatives wear bras. I could always buy a pair to practice on. Although I wonder if a better approach if such a situation was unfolding would be to entice the woman to remove it herself.

And yeah, I understand your reasons for not wishing to monetize it. All of those are very valid. Also, judging from the comments of all the NSFW artists I peruse at twitter, all monetization systems more complicated than ko-fi are terrible headaches.

Patreon's pretty simple and user friendly. There may be others but that is the one I'm familiar with. There's also PayPal, but that is usually for one-time payments, like if I took commissions. For the moment it is really about me wanting to explore it and enjoy the freedom of it without attaching things like "deadlines" or "editorial expectations" on it. Especially since I know a large chunk of my readership seems to like it when I use particular characters and if I started monetizing it, I'd be writing those characters 80% of the time with no breaks. Some stories with certain characters score about 2,000-3,000 views, and others with different ones can see 10,000+ views. Part of the fun is getting to play with different characters; I'm a weirdo who prefers to tell a cohesive story regardless of the kink portion. I do cater to the audience a bit (since I am among them), but if I monetized it, I'd be mostly writing the same 2-3 characters all the time.

As americans in webcomics say: And what are you, chopped liver?

Gotta love those situations   .  Sometimes it makes me wonder if part of the problem for some of us is that we take people's words too seriously.

As a 40 year old virgin, I have to work my way up to chopped liver.

I prefer to take people at their word, especially women in any situation which could lead to romance. Crossing boundaries is rarely a good way to enter any relationship, even a platonic one. Yes, it may be possible that my friend is telling me one thing and hoping I'll try the opposite. But that verges into what DNL calls "d***ful thinking". And in my opinion, the types of women who "say one thing but want another" are not as common as a lot of men claim. If only because a woman who "says no but means yes" is literally putting her life in her hands. As her friend, who knows she's intelligent and at least moderately mature, I trust her to say what she means. And if she almost goes overboard to signal to me that she "doesn't want to date right now" or "doesn't want to date long term friends," then who am I to insist otherwise?

Would you believe it's by pure accident? I've never seen that one nor its box art. It's just a combination of Czech Fantasy and some ideas from gay porn. Also, the section with a curtain was the pornographic one, right? I've only seen that in american shows, down here it was just the closest shelf to the counter or a big folder on top of it to order them by name. Aaah, video stores...I'm nostalgic for them lately and don't know why. It's not like the movies were that great.

That was kind of the point. Back in the "video rental store era," critical reviews weren't as easily accessed. Unless you avidly read a newspaper or a magazine, or watched an occasional TV show (of which "SISKEL & EBERT" were the peak), you weren't bombarded. Ads were limited to TV commercials or print ads. So many times you may not have heard something was out or was available until you saw a poster or that box art at the shop, especially if it was less than mainstream. And more to the point...sometimes you (universal you) are in the mood for "good crap." Anyone in Hollywood can produce an overly expensive action blockbuster with famous people, and it's usually done while they're high or drunk. But making some grungy flick about a rubber suited alien who poses as a dentist and kills fraternity bros? That's the kind of garbage you could only find at a video rental place (which is why Quentin Tarantino was so inspired working at one). There was a sense of more free time then, especially since many of us were younger then. Now? If you want to find some "good crap" you have to scroll Netflix and feel lucky.

(As a related aside, I am rewatching the 1987 TMNT cartoon on a whim, and there are tons of references to B-movies there. Sometimes they even invent some. One fake movie title which is seen on the sign of a movie theater for many seasons is "KUNG-FU COMMANDOS VS. CHAINSAW CHEERLEADERS." I would SO watch that if it existed in real life.)

I'm sure the "glory hole" stuff was older than "PORKY's". The writer/director of those flicks based it on experiences he and his pals went through in the 1950's, for instance. It was just an easy reference for me.

Speaking of which, this thing I'm going to say is purely to compare attitudes and not an attempt to convince you or anything: Do you ever feel unsafe about the idea going to a completely unknown city for that? Yes, I did it during a trip to another city myself, but it was still a place and neighborhood I know well, since I studied there for years. If things went wrong or they tried to scam me, I knew where to run, where the police stations are, where to hide and/or find a room for the night (in case of losing the bus home), where are the underground stops... Doing that sort of thing in a place where I lack those abilities feels pretty dangerous to me. Is that a relevant factor for you? Why?

I hadn't thought about it or committed to it deeply enough to feel anxious about being in an unfamiliar place. I actually haven't ever vacationed anywhere without family so a part of me is just eager to do that. The other factor is that Las Vegas and other areas which cater to tourists also have heavy police and/or an infrastructure which aids tourists at almost every turn. Lost tourists who missed their bus are pretty common in those areas. And yes, there is a risk of being targeted by crooks, which is why it isn't smart to dress like you have cash. Many of the legal brothels there take this into account, and you can literally book a car service from the airport to one. Many of them have more than just the women; they have bars which serve food so you can make an evening of it. Besides, c'mon, like many of the folks who work in the touristy areas of Vegas or anywhere where there is legal prostitution (like the Netherlands) don't know that a good chunk of the dudes visiting won't "explore" those services.

Yes, you do hear about tourists being targeted and robbed sporadically on the news. But if was any kind of epidemic, those areas wouldn't be so heavily traveled. It took a FOR REAL epidemic to slow down tourism to Vegas. Locals are at greater risk of being targeted since the police presence is heavily concentrated on the usually better off tourists. Which is horrible, but it is a fact.

[Enail]

Oh, do you know something I've found that helps with those worries about nerves? Grabbing an old bra from a female relative and practising how to open and close it without seeing.

That's not a bad idea, but few of my female relatives wear bras. I could always buy a pair to practice on. Although I wonder if a better approach if such a situation was unfolding would be to entice the woman to remove it herself.

Third option, fumble it, which I still do at times despite being a woman with close to 30 years experience with my own bras and being married to the same woman, with generally similar bras throughout that time, for 20.

[Datelessman]

Oh, do you know something I've found that helps with those worries about nerves? Grabbing an old bra from a female relative and practising how to open and close it without seeing.

That's not a bad idea, but few of my female relatives wear bras. I could always buy a pair to practice on. Although I wonder if a better approach if such a situation was unfolding would be to entice the woman to remove it herself.

Third option, fumble it, which I still do at times despite being a woman with close to 30 years experience with my own bras and being married to the same woman, with generally similar bras throughout that time, for 20.

That could work, as a team building exercise! Both of us versus the bra!

But yeah, it's been an old joke with some of my relatives that many items of clothing made for women are designed by men, who then never have to wear them.

[Hielario]

I prefer to take people at their word, especially women in any situation which could lead to romance. Crossing boundaries is rarely a good way to enter any relationship, even a platonic one. Yes, it may be possible that my friend is telling me one thing and hoping I'll try the opposite. But that verges into what DNL calls "d***ful thinking". And in my opinion, the types of women who "say one thing but want another" are not as common as a lot of men claim. If only because a woman who "says no but means yes" is literally putting her life in her hands. As her friend, who knows she's intelligent and at least moderately mature, I trust her to say what she means. And if she almost goes overboard to signal to me that she "doesn't want to date right now" or "doesn't want to date long term friends," then who am I to insist otherwise?

[Enail]

<Mod> Hielario, it is not acceptable to assert that women can't be trusted to or that you get to decide for them what they really want and try to push them into it. That's an incredibly sexist, and potentially assault-y view that is absolutely not okay to express on this site. You have said things along these lines before, and if you keep it up, this could become a banning offense, as much as I hate to ban one of the few people still talking here. People sometimes change their minds or express themselves indirectly, that doesn't mean it's okay for you to "insist" on what you believe they want.</mod>

[Hielario]

If that is what you read in my words I'll erase them.

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