My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:19 pm
Just to put a stamp on it, because I think it is a relevant, related point, is that one thing that a lot of socially awkward guys like me have to learn is that what one particular person (regardless of gender or orientation) says at any given moment is not only NOT a universal be-all decree for all members of their group, it isn't even a universal be-all decree for their entire lives moving forward. It is something they may believe or feel at that time with that given person or audience which is always subject to change as per their feelings and life experiences (not by being badgered, negged, or harassed), since change is constant. And it is something which I still struggle to do, but which I feel I have made strides in compared to where I was as a teenager or in my twenties or early 30's.
To use my friend as an example, since that triggered all this, her statements to me about "wanting to take a break from dating" or "not wanting to date long term friends" don't become automatically inconsistent just because she may or may not choose to date someone else. She may genuinely feel such things at the moment (especially coming out of a breakup), and that can change when she takes some personal time to emotionally recover. And, most importantly, she may code those messages to ME because she doesn't want me to attempt to ask her out, because she just is not interested in me that way -- which is totally fine. Off the top of my head, I am (or was) one of the best friends to one of her exes, and that might remind her of bad times without either of us meaning it. That isn't to say such things can't be frustrating, and while I don't think I ever handled similar situations with other friends who were women badly (i.e. I never melted down or acted bitter or mean to them or got angry at them), there were definitely years I used that frustration to beat myself up or make "why am I Ivar the Un****able!?" moans of woe. I don't do that so much anymore, partly due to maturity and partly due to learned helplessness due to my love life.
The other element of it is there being a time or place for everything, and reading a room. When a friend of mine comes to me in some kind of distress, emotional or otherwise, my first inkling is not to turn it to my advantage to get something. My first inkling is to help. This has nothing to do with romance, i.e. if a friend of mine, say, needed me to do him a favor or was in some kind of crisis, I am not thinking, "well, now is my opportunity to borrow that CD or get a free ride to the movies next weekend" or so on. That inkling doesn't change for me just because the friend in need is a woman who may or may not be my type. Even if this is a common pattern for her, my inkling isn't, "Suggest that the cure to her dating woes is to date me, because somehow I am totally different." Taking advantage of people is wrong, especially when they are vulnerable. Between working jobs or experiencing unemployment and applying for things like food stamps or dealing with housing court, I know what it's like to be kicked around by someone who has some advantage over you and I don't like doing that to other people -- especially those I care about. I always figure at best, in the immediate crisis to be supportive and helpful and then to allow for her mood to shift and allow her time to emotionally recover, and then at best I take a shot when and if she signals that is okay. I am not Louie DePalma from "TAXI" (I know I am showing my age with that reference) who deliberately trolls for vulnerable women. It's just usually I only know when my pal has reached that state when she's sharing photos of her and some new beau she met at the bar/work/running errands.
It is absolutely a disadvantage that my well of "warm approaches" has dried up. Aside for her everyone in my social circle has coupled off or moved way out of state. And I know a long term solution is to do MeetUps or whatnot and make some new friends in the hopes that social cycles wind through and they recommend someone. That may be fun, but it's a long term project which won't bare fruit for a long time. I may be 50 by the time that pans out. And I know, I should have been doing that stuff 5+ years ago when people recommended it, and I didn't, and I was dumb (or distracted/warn down/stressed out, etc). But that doesn't change the here and now.
I am still in the early days with Moodgym. Certain intervals ask for taking a week or so to ponder a lesson and write notes/homework and I keep trying to do that, which does slow things down. It's about noticing behaviors and identifying them and trying to label and organize them so they have less power over you. I've done this with other aspects of my life. I.E. I used to get very envious of my friends and by college I realized this was an ugly, bitter habit so I deliberately forced myself to change it over a few years. If I got a thought like that, I'd go, "No, this isn't true, this is just my envy and I should be happy for him," and by and large that's gone now. Haven't been able to do that with disbelief in regards to dating, though, which is my focus now. If I can't understand success as a concept, I can't succeed unless I just rely on dumb luck. And c'mon, it's implied that as a 40 year old virgin I didn't ever get lucky. That and just having the mental bandwidth to go thru a lot of effort just to be ignored or rejected most of the time (which happens with most people). Just if I can't capitalize on a rare nugget of success then there's no point, so I have to fix that in myself. Time's just more against me now than it was before, and the social environment between Covid-19/bad economy/end of Roe does me no favors.
To use my friend as an example, since that triggered all this, her statements to me about "wanting to take a break from dating" or "not wanting to date long term friends" don't become automatically inconsistent just because she may or may not choose to date someone else. She may genuinely feel such things at the moment (especially coming out of a breakup), and that can change when she takes some personal time to emotionally recover. And, most importantly, she may code those messages to ME because she doesn't want me to attempt to ask her out, because she just is not interested in me that way -- which is totally fine. Off the top of my head, I am (or was) one of the best friends to one of her exes, and that might remind her of bad times without either of us meaning it. That isn't to say such things can't be frustrating, and while I don't think I ever handled similar situations with other friends who were women badly (i.e. I never melted down or acted bitter or mean to them or got angry at them), there were definitely years I used that frustration to beat myself up or make "why am I Ivar the Un****able!?" moans of woe. I don't do that so much anymore, partly due to maturity and partly due to learned helplessness due to my love life.
The other element of it is there being a time or place for everything, and reading a room. When a friend of mine comes to me in some kind of distress, emotional or otherwise, my first inkling is not to turn it to my advantage to get something. My first inkling is to help. This has nothing to do with romance, i.e. if a friend of mine, say, needed me to do him a favor or was in some kind of crisis, I am not thinking, "well, now is my opportunity to borrow that CD or get a free ride to the movies next weekend" or so on. That inkling doesn't change for me just because the friend in need is a woman who may or may not be my type. Even if this is a common pattern for her, my inkling isn't, "Suggest that the cure to her dating woes is to date me, because somehow I am totally different." Taking advantage of people is wrong, especially when they are vulnerable. Between working jobs or experiencing unemployment and applying for things like food stamps or dealing with housing court, I know what it's like to be kicked around by someone who has some advantage over you and I don't like doing that to other people -- especially those I care about. I always figure at best, in the immediate crisis to be supportive and helpful and then to allow for her mood to shift and allow her time to emotionally recover, and then at best I take a shot when and if she signals that is okay. I am not Louie DePalma from "TAXI" (I know I am showing my age with that reference) who deliberately trolls for vulnerable women. It's just usually I only know when my pal has reached that state when she's sharing photos of her and some new beau she met at the bar/work/running errands.
It is absolutely a disadvantage that my well of "warm approaches" has dried up. Aside for her everyone in my social circle has coupled off or moved way out of state. And I know a long term solution is to do MeetUps or whatnot and make some new friends in the hopes that social cycles wind through and they recommend someone. That may be fun, but it's a long term project which won't bare fruit for a long time. I may be 50 by the time that pans out. And I know, I should have been doing that stuff 5+ years ago when people recommended it, and I didn't, and I was dumb (or distracted/warn down/stressed out, etc). But that doesn't change the here and now.
I am still in the early days with Moodgym. Certain intervals ask for taking a week or so to ponder a lesson and write notes/homework and I keep trying to do that, which does slow things down. It's about noticing behaviors and identifying them and trying to label and organize them so they have less power over you. I've done this with other aspects of my life. I.E. I used to get very envious of my friends and by college I realized this was an ugly, bitter habit so I deliberately forced myself to change it over a few years. If I got a thought like that, I'd go, "No, this isn't true, this is just my envy and I should be happy for him," and by and large that's gone now. Haven't been able to do that with disbelief in regards to dating, though, which is my focus now. If I can't understand success as a concept, I can't succeed unless I just rely on dumb luck. And c'mon, it's implied that as a 40 year old virgin I didn't ever get lucky. That and just having the mental bandwidth to go thru a lot of effort just to be ignored or rejected most of the time (which happens with most people). Just if I can't capitalize on a rare nugget of success then there's no point, so I have to fix that in myself. Time's just more against me now than it was before, and the social environment between Covid-19/bad economy/end of Roe does me no favors.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Hielario Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:10 am
Just to put a stamp on it, because I think it is a relevant, related point, is that one thing that a lot of socially awkward guys like me have to learn is that what one particular person (regardless of gender or orientation) says at any given moment is not only NOT a universal be-all decree for all members of their group, it isn't even a universal be-all decree for their entire lives moving forward. It is something they may believe or feel at that time with that given person or audience which is always subject to change as per their feelings and life experiences (not by being badgered, negged, or harassed), since change is constant. And it is something which I still struggle to do, but which I feel I have made strides in compared to where I was as a teenager or in my twenties or early 30's.
That's what I've believed all my life, for the record, but it's starting to get more and more difficult to uphold thanks to the behaviour of most people I've met. Your friend is just another sad reminder of the same, to me. Maybe I'm just tired and bitter.
The other element of it is there being a time or place for everything, and reading a room. When a friend of mine comes to me in some kind of distress, emotional or otherwise, my first inkling is not to turn it to my advantage to get something. My first inkling is to help. This has nothing to do with romance, i.e. if a friend of mine, say, needed me to do him a favor or was in some kind of crisis, I am not thinking, "well, now is my opportunity to borrow that CD or get a free ride to the movies next weekend" or so on. That inkling doesn't change for me just because the friend in need is a woman who may or may not be my type. Even if this is a common pattern for her, my inkling isn't, "Suggest that the cure to her dating woes is to date me, because somehow I am totally different." Taking advantage of people is wrong, especially when they are vulnerable. Between working jobs or experiencing unemployment and applying for things like food stamps or dealing with housing court, I know what it's like to be kicked around by someone who has some advantage over you and I don't like doing that to other people -- especially those I care about. I always figure at best, in the immediate crisis to be supportive and helpful and then to allow for her mood to shift and allow her time to emotionally recover, and then at best I take a shot when and if she signals that is okay. I am not Louie DePalma from "TAXI" (I know I am showing my age with that reference) who deliberately trolls for vulnerable women. It's just usually I only know when my pal has reached that state when she's sharing photos of her and some new beau she met at the bar/work/running errands.
OK, this is not arguing, it's a warning: I see a serious problem underlying what you just said. It looks like you're stuck on an unnecessary and unrealistic moral binary the same way I used to be. You CAN care about someone's welfare and want to help them, and ALSO want them to do something that you want, it's not one or the other. To keep with your example, there would be nothing wrong with going to the movies together next weekend to help take their head out of things. You're helping them AND getting something you want, nobody gets hurt. This whole concept or definition of "taking avantage of someone vulnerable" sounds like it comes from the same societal place which gave us the horrible belief that if your only or principal interest in a person is sexual, you don't give a shit about them as people and you see them as a piece of meat.
And for the record: you ARE different than the others. Look at yourself: you're ardently defending and justifying the behaviour of someone who is, by your description, a living illustration of that saying: "actions speak louder than words". If anything, she'd be trading up. <(EDIT: This is merely meant as a purely theoretical estimation of what would happen if they got together as a way to argue with Datelessman's self-belittling, not an argument in favor of pushing her because she doesn't know what's good for her and we do, Enail, in case you're getting those ideas again)>.
Also, human behaviour doesn't follow all of those neat and tidy states. If they did, political science would be akin to bricolage and you could sway an election in an evening.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:47 am
Hielario wrote:That's what I've believed all my life, for the record, but it's starting to get more and more difficult to uphold thanks to the behaviour of most people I've met. Your friend is just another sad reminder of the same, to me. Maybe I'm just tired and bitter.
Bitterness can be a tough habit to break, and is usually unhelpful. It can even be a "date-killer," as DNL and many others have said. It's something I have struggled with that I actively work on within myself. I'm not always successful, but I'm involved in trying to keep it in line.
I get the weariness and exhaustion which can come with struggling with these things so long, though.
Hielario wrote:OK, this is not arguing, it's a warning: I see a serious problem underlying what you just said. It looks like you're stuck on an unnecessary and unrealistic moral binary the same way I used to be. You CAN care about someone's welfare and want to help them, and ALSO want them to do something that you want, it's not one or the other. To keep with your example, there would be nothing wrong with going to the movies together next weekend to help take their head out of things. You're helping them AND getting something you want, nobody gets hurt. This whole concept or definition of "taking avantage of someone vulnerable" sounds like it comes from the same societal place which gave us the horrible belief that if your only or principal interest in a person is sexual, you don't give a shit about them as people and you see them as a piece of meat.
There is a difference between theoretically wanting something and deliberately trying to steer things in that direction, especially if the signals you're reading suggest its undesired.
You see it in many of the letters DNL gets. How something "just happened" and now they're in a can of worms, and DNL will point out how they actively set up the situation where the "something" was very likely to happen as a consequence.
You are right, it is possible to want to do right by someone for altruistic reasons as well as simultaneously having romantic feelings for them. The trick is determining when or if one begins to effect the other. Thanks to social pressures and norms, men in particular are pretty infamous for "steering" things in that direction even without being fully aware of it, because it's so commonly accepted and justified. If efforts to "help" someone also conveniently have the end goal of "getting something" out of someone, then it ceases to be done for altruism anymore and just becomes a means to an end. I'll concede that while I usually reject a lot of "experts" who blame things on men being raised by single mothers (another romance "guru," Frank Kermit, is pretty infamous for this), one consequence of having no real "male role model" in my childhood was that I likely attached to some fictional, unrealistic examples.
Would I like to date my friend if she wasn't in some sort of emotional crisis (or resolution) and signaled to me that such a thing would be okay? Sure, to a point. The other big problem is she's clearly gunning for a LTR or commitment at this stage in her life and that is simply not where I am yet. I can't honestly tell someone I am dating at this stage of my life that I am aiming to settle down or get married anytime soon. If I did claim such things they'd be self serving lies to keep someone around, which would be wrong. Now, I know not all women in their late 30's are at that stage in dating or want to do such things, but she is. And a 40 year old guy whose answer to a commitment question is, at best, "I don't know" or "I'm not ready" can be seen as immature -- one of her pet peeves in men. I feel I have a good reason for not being ready, but reasons don't matter to most people. For the record, she is not one of the few friends who knows/knew about my "secret," and I have no intention to ever tell her. Or anyone, outside of online anonymity or, at best, professional therapy and/or sexual services (i.e. if I ever went to a Vegas "bunny ranch," I sure as heck will tell them I am a virgin because they usually have special programs for them and/or workers who specialize).
But when my friend has already clearly signaled to me that she is not interested in me romantically and/or would rather I not try with her, on top of showing some emotional vulnerability, that is different. She's already signaled that at least in my circumstance, she is not wanting to date or date longer term friends. Bypassing that for "just as friends non-dates" feels like crossing a line, or at least tapdancing on it until one of us "happens" to fall over. And that'd be great for me but manipulative to her.
Hielario wrote:And for the record: you ARE different than the others. Look at yourself: you're ardently defending and justifying the behaviour of someone who is, by your description, a living illustration of that saying: "actions speak louder than words". If anything, she'd be trading up. <(EDIT: This is merely meant as a purely theoretical estimation of what would happen if they got together as a way to argue with Datelessman's self-belittling, not an argument in favor of pushing her because she doesn't know what's good for her and we do, Enail, in case you're getting those ideas again)>.
Also, human behaviour doesn't follow all of those neat and tidy states. If they did, political science would be akin to bricolage and you could sway an election in an evening.
For the record at this stage I regret even bringing this up to KMR because I am getting uncomfortable having debates about this friend. They feel judgmental even if that is not my intent and I don't feel it is yours, either. I only brought it up as an example because she was on my FB feed again.
I don't feel my friend's "actions" are that inconsistent with her words. Simply because she tells me certain things or gives me certain signals doesn't mean those are or should be universal blanket things she gives everyone. With another person she knows from work, other friends, or a bar she may feel very differently. That's life, and that's dating! As you yourself said, "human behavior doesn't follow all of those neat and tidy states." Its ignoring that when some men hear a woman say she "doesn't want to date" yet get morally offended or angry when or if they see her dating someone who is not them. "Hey, she said she doesn't wanna date! Women are liars!" No, that just meant she didn't want to date a particular person at a particular time, and that could change with another person. My friend has the right to have me as a friend while dating other men.
I appreciate your flattery regarding what kind of person I seem to be, but even you must admit that an opinion of, "I would be a better man to date her than the ones she usually dates, even if she doesn't know it," is a biased, self-serving opinion. It also is likely an incorrect opinion. Setting aside the signals I feel she's clearly told me regarding her unwillingness to pursue anything romantic with me, my friend desires worldly, intelligent, mature, self-sufficient men (who like cats). That's her type, and she's been pretty consistent about that since college. The ones she breaks up with either can't hit that bar in one area or another, or cheated on her. Compatibility is a thing and I don't quite hit those slots. Now I know someone might say, "well, if she has so predictable a dating pattern of love-and-bust, maybe she needs to reexamine certain things." And maybe she should. But that's on her, and if she doesn't want to, then that is her choice. Suggesting she "try" to be more "flexible" regarding some of her desires in men which, hey, by sheer coincidence match up with me, seems manipulative. I personally don't find her criteria to be unreasonable, and I know most women could attest to the challenges of finding someone decent to date or have a LTR with, period. Heck, many men could, too; that's why there's a whole industry revolving around it. We're chatting on a forum set up for fans of someone who earns a living at it!
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Enail Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:19 pm
<mod> Datelessman's said it, but just to underline that, the discussion about his friend is done. Thanks all! </mod>
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:33 pm
To try to stay on (my) topic but shift things in a different direction, I'll essentially pose a topic I once blogged about: Whatever would I put in a dating profile, anyway?
While I know that in theory, my best options are to continue to use Moodgym to see if this helps me get past my "disbelief" syndrome while also expanding my social network with MeetUps or other social functions. The more friends I acquire, the more chances for soft approaches or being "recommended" to someone. In practice, this will take many years and there's no guarantee that any "new friends" would be any more willing to set me up with any of their single friends/relatives than my old friends are. In all likelihood my next foray into trying to date again, if I am ever serious, would be setting up new accounts at OKC and/or Plenty Of Fish and seeing what, if anything, bites.
The angle of a dating site profile is to essentially construct something that in the sales world is called "a pitch." The idea is to come up with an engaging and enticing Bio which causes at least some women on the site to go, "Hmm, I wouldn't mind trying that." The trick is to come up with one which feels like it captures the essence of me, whatever that is, without being dishonest, condescending, or simply listing all of my flaws. This is an exercise I have seriously not done since college.
In college, back when OKC was new (and ironically, the algorithms made it easier to message people), I constructed a Bio in a fit of depression. Not only was I honest to a fault, the entire tone of the thing was almost combative, as if daring someone to want to date me despite my own Bio. I was blunt about how lonely I was, my taste in black clothing, and how rarely I went out on Friday or Saturday nights. I called myself "a momma's boy" when I mentioned my handicapped mother. There was some bitter mocking judgement about the types of men I perceived women preferred (I think I used terms like, "spikey haired jocks" or so on). My one highlight was a top ten list of why women should message me, but most of them were not terribly funny (or perpetuated ugly stereotypes, such as a joke implying some women are gold-diggers). I even admitted to being a virgin, at a time when I was still in my early-mid 20's. My approach, if I even had one, was to be unlike "typical guys" by admitting my faults right off so that if a woman wanted to date me anyway, she was well informed and under no delusions. Top that with a pretty unflattering photograph, and the question wasn't so much that it was unsuccessful, but how I managed to land one date in spite of all that!
(For what its worth, the woman who did ask me out despite that Bio claimed it was "one of the most interesting ones I'd ever seen." She called me "cutie" in messaging more than once, and then on the date itself volunteered the fact that she'd done some nude photography without any prompting from me. I, of course, was in disbelief I was even on a date and was probably too boring for her as a result, and absolutely did not catch those signals. My first reaction was a variant of the usual one I've given when a woman agrees to a date with me: a message that all but asks, "Are you sure!?")
Eventually I realized how negative the whole thing was, and I would sporadically update it or edit it every few years. But no amount of tinkering really fixed the core messaging, which was not positive at all. The foundation of it was wrong, and I needed to scrap it and start over. But I never did. I don't think I've logged into OKC in almost a decade.
So, obviously, this time I am not depressed and I need to write a more positive Bio that highlights my good points, with updated photographs. I'm heavier now than I was, which is bad, but it is what it is. I know I don't need to be an Adonis to land dates, because none of my friends were and I have eyes and see couples on the street. That said, my Bio isn't the kind where I am going to garner any attention on my looks; physically I am average at best. No more handsome or hideous than the average schmuck. Which means if the Bio is to be successful I have to win people over with personality. While I no longer want to list all my flaws and dare people...I do not want to outright mislead people either. One of the many problems with lacking in confidence is that focusing on my positives seems dishonest to me. Part of what fuels my disbelief is the inflexible belief that no woman would ever want me if she really knew me. Any positive reaction is just a misunderstanding or error on her part, and if I capitalize, I am a cad. That's why a woman giving me a disgusted look in gym class is something I remembered forever, but a woman calling me "cutie" on OKC is the sort of thing I didn't realize was flirting until nearly a decade later.
More to the point, my two greatest and most appealing traits are the kind which have to be shown, and not merely stated. I have a sense of humor, and I write well. Obviously, if I just state that in a Bio, that's underwhelming at best. Its like someone saying, "I'm tall," when photographs or a listed height can clearly show that. If I want to show I am funny then I have to write a funny Bio. And if I want to show I write well, then my Bio has to be properly planned and drafted, paced and so on. And not meander too long; DNL posted some OKC factoids once, and one was that every section needed to have about 93 words or less to maximize potential. Verbosity is my curse. I'll probably be still be talking weeks after I'm dead. Yet in a Bio which is aiming to be funny, it also has to honestly state things which are true about me, and also not come off as deceptive, snarky, or condescending. I could not pull that off in my 20's, but then again, I didn't try very hard. I would be more open about my geekness; in the earlier 2000's that stuff was more niche than it is now. It is fair to mention tending to my mother, but that needs to be spun as a positive. And I would not admit to virginity in a Bio; that is too heavy a topic to admit so cavalierly, and I am old enough that its considered socially weird and I would limit my matches. Yet I don't want to mislead someone into thinking I am a lounge lizard. "I haven't dated in a while," or some such seems to be a good compromise, while also being technically true.
On the other other hand (I think I am on about five hands now), if I make it too jokey or funny, it may read like a sitcom sketch or that I am a standup comedian looking for material. Although I usually come off like a dour basket case on forums, in real life I never have a problem making someone laugh if I want to. Its almost ridiculously easy. At work I have to deliberately tone it back to get work done or be serious with clients. The problem is convincing women I am more than a clown. That stuff is just hard to get across in a Bio. And there is still that encroaching fear that I succeed too well, and women think I am way cooler than I actually am, as if that would be a bad thing. I am always fretting that if I succeed in making an enticing Bio and attract some dates, the women will be in for a bit of a shock when I kiss like a dead fish and fumble like I've never touched a woman's arm in my life -- because I haven't. But maybe I am getting too ahead of myself. I've seen many people claim that if a woman actually likes me she will "help me along" or "forgive some mistakes," but I have read and heard of just as many women dumping a guy nearly immediately because he was a bad kisser or wasn't smooth about touching. Which is their right, I just want to avoid being skeevy or underwhelming by accident or ignorance. I realize I may be asking for a contradictory thing: wanting the sort of mea culpas a woman might give someone who she knows is a virgin, without actually admitting virginity.
"Jeez, you kiss like a 12 year old."
"Well, I said it'd been a while!"
I know there is an old topic for discussions about OKC Bios, but that's for when or if I post one or have a draft. This is just brainstorming, so I figure here is fine.
While I know that in theory, my best options are to continue to use Moodgym to see if this helps me get past my "disbelief" syndrome while also expanding my social network with MeetUps or other social functions. The more friends I acquire, the more chances for soft approaches or being "recommended" to someone. In practice, this will take many years and there's no guarantee that any "new friends" would be any more willing to set me up with any of their single friends/relatives than my old friends are. In all likelihood my next foray into trying to date again, if I am ever serious, would be setting up new accounts at OKC and/or Plenty Of Fish and seeing what, if anything, bites.
The angle of a dating site profile is to essentially construct something that in the sales world is called "a pitch." The idea is to come up with an engaging and enticing Bio which causes at least some women on the site to go, "Hmm, I wouldn't mind trying that." The trick is to come up with one which feels like it captures the essence of me, whatever that is, without being dishonest, condescending, or simply listing all of my flaws. This is an exercise I have seriously not done since college.
In college, back when OKC was new (and ironically, the algorithms made it easier to message people), I constructed a Bio in a fit of depression. Not only was I honest to a fault, the entire tone of the thing was almost combative, as if daring someone to want to date me despite my own Bio. I was blunt about how lonely I was, my taste in black clothing, and how rarely I went out on Friday or Saturday nights. I called myself "a momma's boy" when I mentioned my handicapped mother. There was some bitter mocking judgement about the types of men I perceived women preferred (I think I used terms like, "spikey haired jocks" or so on). My one highlight was a top ten list of why women should message me, but most of them were not terribly funny (or perpetuated ugly stereotypes, such as a joke implying some women are gold-diggers). I even admitted to being a virgin, at a time when I was still in my early-mid 20's. My approach, if I even had one, was to be unlike "typical guys" by admitting my faults right off so that if a woman wanted to date me anyway, she was well informed and under no delusions. Top that with a pretty unflattering photograph, and the question wasn't so much that it was unsuccessful, but how I managed to land one date in spite of all that!
(For what its worth, the woman who did ask me out despite that Bio claimed it was "one of the most interesting ones I'd ever seen." She called me "cutie" in messaging more than once, and then on the date itself volunteered the fact that she'd done some nude photography without any prompting from me. I, of course, was in disbelief I was even on a date and was probably too boring for her as a result, and absolutely did not catch those signals. My first reaction was a variant of the usual one I've given when a woman agrees to a date with me: a message that all but asks, "Are you sure!?")
Eventually I realized how negative the whole thing was, and I would sporadically update it or edit it every few years. But no amount of tinkering really fixed the core messaging, which was not positive at all. The foundation of it was wrong, and I needed to scrap it and start over. But I never did. I don't think I've logged into OKC in almost a decade.
So, obviously, this time I am not depressed and I need to write a more positive Bio that highlights my good points, with updated photographs. I'm heavier now than I was, which is bad, but it is what it is. I know I don't need to be an Adonis to land dates, because none of my friends were and I have eyes and see couples on the street. That said, my Bio isn't the kind where I am going to garner any attention on my looks; physically I am average at best. No more handsome or hideous than the average schmuck. Which means if the Bio is to be successful I have to win people over with personality. While I no longer want to list all my flaws and dare people...I do not want to outright mislead people either. One of the many problems with lacking in confidence is that focusing on my positives seems dishonest to me. Part of what fuels my disbelief is the inflexible belief that no woman would ever want me if she really knew me. Any positive reaction is just a misunderstanding or error on her part, and if I capitalize, I am a cad. That's why a woman giving me a disgusted look in gym class is something I remembered forever, but a woman calling me "cutie" on OKC is the sort of thing I didn't realize was flirting until nearly a decade later.
More to the point, my two greatest and most appealing traits are the kind which have to be shown, and not merely stated. I have a sense of humor, and I write well. Obviously, if I just state that in a Bio, that's underwhelming at best. Its like someone saying, "I'm tall," when photographs or a listed height can clearly show that. If I want to show I am funny then I have to write a funny Bio. And if I want to show I write well, then my Bio has to be properly planned and drafted, paced and so on. And not meander too long; DNL posted some OKC factoids once, and one was that every section needed to have about 93 words or less to maximize potential. Verbosity is my curse. I'll probably be still be talking weeks after I'm dead. Yet in a Bio which is aiming to be funny, it also has to honestly state things which are true about me, and also not come off as deceptive, snarky, or condescending. I could not pull that off in my 20's, but then again, I didn't try very hard. I would be more open about my geekness; in the earlier 2000's that stuff was more niche than it is now. It is fair to mention tending to my mother, but that needs to be spun as a positive. And I would not admit to virginity in a Bio; that is too heavy a topic to admit so cavalierly, and I am old enough that its considered socially weird and I would limit my matches. Yet I don't want to mislead someone into thinking I am a lounge lizard. "I haven't dated in a while," or some such seems to be a good compromise, while also being technically true.
On the other other hand (I think I am on about five hands now), if I make it too jokey or funny, it may read like a sitcom sketch or that I am a standup comedian looking for material. Although I usually come off like a dour basket case on forums, in real life I never have a problem making someone laugh if I want to. Its almost ridiculously easy. At work I have to deliberately tone it back to get work done or be serious with clients. The problem is convincing women I am more than a clown. That stuff is just hard to get across in a Bio. And there is still that encroaching fear that I succeed too well, and women think I am way cooler than I actually am, as if that would be a bad thing. I am always fretting that if I succeed in making an enticing Bio and attract some dates, the women will be in for a bit of a shock when I kiss like a dead fish and fumble like I've never touched a woman's arm in my life -- because I haven't. But maybe I am getting too ahead of myself. I've seen many people claim that if a woman actually likes me she will "help me along" or "forgive some mistakes," but I have read and heard of just as many women dumping a guy nearly immediately because he was a bad kisser or wasn't smooth about touching. Which is their right, I just want to avoid being skeevy or underwhelming by accident or ignorance. I realize I may be asking for a contradictory thing: wanting the sort of mea culpas a woman might give someone who she knows is a virgin, without actually admitting virginity.
"Jeez, you kiss like a 12 year old."
"Well, I said it'd been a while!"
I know there is an old topic for discussions about OKC Bios, but that's for when or if I post one or have a draft. This is just brainstorming, so I figure here is fine.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Hielario Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:08 pm
First idea that comes to my mind is to put a very blatant warning about how you have an elderly, handicapped relative living with you. Because that is a matter that, whether they like you or not, will condition your relationship and what you can do. EDIT: That is a way to "twist it", now that I think of it. You don't "still live with your mother"; you're the one bringing money, taking care of her and handling important matters, aren't you? Then it is perfectly faire to say that "your mother lives with you". You can claim that and it will be perfectly justified. And, that way, you will avoid some negative connotations related to lack of maturity or independence.
Second one is saying you're okay with them having children like you mentioned. That is a positive no matter what since it adresses one of the most common issues with dating over a certain age.
Third...Okay, this started as a joke, but the more I think of it, the more it seems like could actually be good for you. You work in phone attention, so you're familiar with business b.s., right? How about writing it in the style of a ridiculous commercial? It might help your tendence to self-deprecate by twisting your description into ridiculous affirmations AND allows you to be funny:
"With his mostly-black wardrobe, you'll be ready for any impromptu funeral, halloween party or intimidation of solicitors!"
"Big! Huggable! Save in pillows!"
"Don't worry about cheating: other women will only look at him with disgust!"
"Physically starved and can't say the last time he had sex! Mold him into your ideal bedmate! Guaranteed to be kink-friendly."
"Call now, and in addition to this amazing partner, you will get a free* handicapped mother-in-law."
Even if you don't ever use it, I think it would be fun to try!
EDIT: fourth idea! if you have good photos of you wearing those cool costumes you mentioned in the other thread, put them in the profile. Those will communicate good things about you: you get out of the house, you can be creative, your hobbies/your enjoyment of them isn't entirely passive... Don't worry about them obscuring your face: tons of women have some photographies in their profiles where they're absolutely unrecognizable, it used to be one of my pet peeves at Tinder.
(This outburst has been inspired by a tumblr post where I saw a woman ardently defending fish pictures for very logical reasons).
Second one is saying you're okay with them having children like you mentioned. That is a positive no matter what since it adresses one of the most common issues with dating over a certain age.
Third...Okay, this started as a joke, but the more I think of it, the more it seems like could actually be good for you. You work in phone attention, so you're familiar with business b.s., right? How about writing it in the style of a ridiculous commercial? It might help your tendence to self-deprecate by twisting your description into ridiculous affirmations AND allows you to be funny:
"With his mostly-black wardrobe, you'll be ready for any impromptu funeral, halloween party or intimidation of solicitors!"
"Big! Huggable! Save in pillows!"
"Don't worry about cheating: other women will only look at him with disgust!"
"Physically starved and can't say the last time he had sex! Mold him into your ideal bedmate! Guaranteed to be kink-friendly."
"Call now, and in addition to this amazing partner, you will get a free* handicapped mother-in-law."
Even if you don't ever use it, I think it would be fun to try!
EDIT: fourth idea! if you have good photos of you wearing those cool costumes you mentioned in the other thread, put them in the profile. Those will communicate good things about you: you get out of the house, you can be creative, your hobbies/your enjoyment of them isn't entirely passive... Don't worry about them obscuring your face: tons of women have some photographies in their profiles where they're absolutely unrecognizable, it used to be one of my pet peeves at Tinder.
(This outburst has been inspired by a tumblr post where I saw a woman ardently defending fish pictures for very logical reasons).
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:38 pm
Hielario wrote:First idea that comes to my mind is to put a very blatant warning about how you have an elderly, handicapped relative living with you. Because that is a matter that, whether they like you or not, will condition your relationship and what you can do. EDIT: That is a way to "twist it", now that I think of it. You don't "still live with your mother"; you're the one bringing money, taking care of her and handling important matters, aren't you? Then it is perfectly faire to say that "your mother lives with you". You can claim that and it will be perfectly justified. And, that way, you will avoid some negative connotations related to lack of maturity or independence.
Second one is saying you're okay with them having children like you mentioned. That is a positive no matter what since it adresses one of the most common issues with dating over a certain age.
Thank you, these are good pointers. Yes, I am considered the "head of the household" for tax purposes and have been since my late 20's (at worst), and my mother is my "dependent." If its good enough for the IRS, it should be good enough for dates. That is a good way to reword it to try to eliminate some of the stigma. Admittedly, part of that is regional; back when I was on the main forums, someone who was from the Midwest or south claimed that "momma's boy" wasn't quite seen as a negative over there. And in Japan, working adults (even sons) who didn't take care of their parents are usually seen negatively. But I am in New York, so...
I always found it a little absurd that a lot of men had problems with dating women who had kids. If you're dating above a certain age, its very common. And the stereotype of a single mom who is overeager to "trap" a man to pay for her and her kids is just that, a stereotype. Yes, sometimes kids say the darnedest things. Way back in the 80's when I was about 6 I woke up one morning when my mother's "man of the evening" was eating breakfast with her and I asked, "So when am I getting a baby brother?" She was amused; he was horrified and they never dated again. If the situation was reversed and some kid was asking me that, I'd probably quip, "Only if you're good," or some such. I mean obviously if a single mother wanted me to shell out a lot of stuff for her kids on our first date or so on, that might be a problem, but honestly I feel that sort of thing is very uncommon and overstated by men who just don't like having to admit the women in their lives dated before they met. I don't have any problems with that sort of thing. If anything its a relief; it means at least one of us would know what we're doing!
Another thing worth adding to a profile is that I like cats. Supposedly concerns about pets are such a thing that I heard OKC has some questions regarding it. A lot of men don't like cats and there is still some minor stigma about them (especially because they're not usually as obedient as dogs). Considering how I usually act at friends' houses who had cats, its not improbable that if I was invited to a woman's place and she had one, I'd get distracted wanting to pet that and not her.
Hielario wrote:Third...Okay, this started as a joke, but the more I think of it, the more it seems like could actually be good for you. You work in phone attention, so you're familiar with business b.s., right? How about writing it in the style of a ridiculous commercial? It might help your tendence to self-deprecate by twisting your description into ridiculous affirmations AND allows you to be funny:
"With his mostly-black wardrobe, you'll be ready for any impromptu funeral, halloween party or intimidation of solicitors!"
"Big! Huggable! Save in pillows!"
"Don't worry about cheating: other women will only look at him with disgust!"
"Physically starved and can't say the last time he had sex! Mold him into your ideal bedmate! Guaranteed to be kink-friendly."
"Call now, and in addition to this amazing partner, you will get a free* handicapped mother-in-law."
Even if you don't ever use it, I think it would be fun to try!
That is an interesting idea. There's a fine line between self-parody and seeming like I lack confidence or am being deceptive, but it isn't a bad idea. Self-depreciating humor is best done sparingly, because it can quickly be used to just make the "jerkbrain" sound funnier. I mean, it doesn't always have to sound like Tom Hardy voicing Venom, does it? But it is an idea worth exploring for a "theme." I kind of feel like Jon Tapper from BAR RESCUE every time he goes on about "a concept," but that may not be a bad thing here.
The line I bolded, though, is likely something I'd probably never put near an OKC/POF Bio. It isn't so much the vague allusion to being a virgin, although threading the needle on "acknowledging inexperience" with being too honest is subjective. But I'd never admit to anything kinky in a Bio. I realize that does sound absurd considering I have a moderately thriving Deviantart page revolving around it, but I'm way shier about that then almost anything else. Maybe this is a bad thing, I don't know honestly. Historically I've always been too weird for the norms, and too normal for the freaks. Like I would be WAY too vanilla for FetLife or some such.
Hielario wrote:EDIT: fourth idea! if you have good photos of you wearing those cool costumes you mentioned in the other thread, put them in the profile. Those will communicate good things about you: you get out of the house, you can be creative, your hobbies/your enjoyment of them isn't entirely passive... Don't worry about them obscuring your face: tons of women have some photographies in their profiles where they're absolutely unrecognizable, it used to be one of my pet peeves at Tinder.
(This outburst has been inspired by a tumblr post where I saw a woman ardently defending fish pictures for very logical reasons).
Yes, I do have some cosplay photos and would include them in a Bio gallery. The downside is some of them are pretty old (like 7 years), but the upside is they're some good pictures. But so long as I don't make an old photo the MAIN image or so on, I'm not being dishonest. And yes, I know men are not the only ones online who may post old, inaccurate photos of themselves, but I would bet money its mostly men.
I'd been debating some photo mocking the "man with a fish" cliche. It seems so easy that its almost irresistible.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:54 pm
This isn't a rebuttal to anyone specific, just a related thing that I noticed which relates to some of the themes/kvetches I've noted in this thread.
DNL has usually tried to sooth the angst that many virgins (older or otherwise) feel by diminishing its importance and comparing it to simply lacking "any other particular experience, such as riding a roller coaster" (to paraphrase). He notes it is a social construct and one which has all sorts of vague technicalities and is hardly an indicator of who is "worthy" of sex and/or capable of offering "satisfying" sex. At best he seems to disagree with, if not underestimate, the considerably negative social opinion of older virgins, especially older male virgins, that exists in greater society and pop culture. He notes its almost entirely a male-invented, male-enforced thing, but seems to treat it as barely more relevant than not liking sushi.
I and some others have disagreed with that assessment, at best, and the topic of "how important is elder male virginity in the grand scheme of dating" has been debated ad infinitum here.
Well, as at least one exhibit of evidence that "fretting about virginity or its negative social reputation," is not just in my head, I submit this article from CBR, regarding a recent She-Hulk TV episode. SPOILERS!
https://www.cbr.com/mark-ruffalo-apologizes-chris-evans-reveal-big-mcu-secret/
Now my point wasn't entirely to comment on some geek update (although I did because I AM a geek and can't help myself). My point is to indicate that even after 11 years, billions of box office dollars, hours of entertainment, and reams of commentary and reviews, there still was interest somewhere in Disney's production team regarding the virginity of a fictional superhero. That the producers and writers deliberately crafted a scene where their star heroine laments that a superhero died an older male virgin and his peer had to amend this assumption. That "correcting" the bedroom status of one of the primary heroes of the MCU so that he didn't wait until his 30's (at least) and a time travel jaunt to lose his virginity at the 11th hour to his first and only love was some essential thing which was worth spending millions to write, direct, film, produce, etc.
In the grand scheme of things...what does it matter? Captain America is a fictional character. More to the point, he's one of the greatest and purest heroes in superhero fiction; the type of man even Spider-Man wants to emulate. He saved the world and the universe many times. What does it matter when or if he was a virgin? Well, apparently to the people who literally help mold our pop culture, it mattered enough to craft an entire scene about it here (without getting into prior films' scenes, such as when Natasha at one point asks, "Was that your first kiss since 1945?"). It mattered to one of the Internet's primary comic book "news" websites (I say "news" but CBR is really just about promotional stuff 99% of the time). And it presumably matters to the millions if not billions of people who will watch SHE-HULK across the globe. And this moment was not the first where fictional characters fretted about this, just the latest example.
It reminds me of the time, during the 10 seasons SMALLVILLE was airing on The CW, that fans used to nickname Clark Kent "Supervirgin," either out of mockery or fondness. Due to his powers and social awkwardness, sex proved difficult for him, and the show essentially said that Clark was more or less a grown adult in his 20's by the time he lost it (to Lois Lane). Again, why should the sexual status of a fictional character matter? Well, it does matter. Major studios and the audiences they cater to seem to invest a lot in this, as if eager to not have their heroes be virgins, or virgins past "a certain age" unless they're locked in a dungeon or something.
Yes, both Steve Rogers and Clark Kent were elder virgins, supposedly, due to their choice and focus on their missions, not a lack of connecting to women. But these negative opinions of their "status" and the zeal to somehow "avenge" it still stand in the eyes of those who produce/write/direct/perform this stuff. If anything, it makes it more absurd that its still something producers care about. And that's not even getting into similar laments over various adaptations of Spider-Man.
So maybe DNL is wrong (or just seeing the world through an optimistic lens) when he believes this stuff doesn't matter. That some of us who spill tons of digital ink fretting about this are not just navel gazing; we have entire international studios, at the very least, believing that elder virginity is a negative, or worthy of mockery or "vindicating." And that a not insignificant chunk of their audience/customer base, if not a likely majority, share this belief. That maybe my belief that acknowledging I am a 40 year old virgin to a potential date on an OKC/POF Bio or on a fourth date or even shortly before a potential sexual encounter is a risky thing isn't solely in my head or a result of my nerves, but is a real thing that many real people invest opinions in. Yes, some of this is immaturity and/or some of the fanbase catering to a low denominator. But not all.
I wasn't "triggered," I just saw this article and thought it would be a scrap of evidence to my claim of, "See, its not just my anxiety alone."
DNL has usually tried to sooth the angst that many virgins (older or otherwise) feel by diminishing its importance and comparing it to simply lacking "any other particular experience, such as riding a roller coaster" (to paraphrase). He notes it is a social construct and one which has all sorts of vague technicalities and is hardly an indicator of who is "worthy" of sex and/or capable of offering "satisfying" sex. At best he seems to disagree with, if not underestimate, the considerably negative social opinion of older virgins, especially older male virgins, that exists in greater society and pop culture. He notes its almost entirely a male-invented, male-enforced thing, but seems to treat it as barely more relevant than not liking sushi.
I and some others have disagreed with that assessment, at best, and the topic of "how important is elder male virginity in the grand scheme of dating" has been debated ad infinitum here.
Well, as at least one exhibit of evidence that "fretting about virginity or its negative social reputation," is not just in my head, I submit this article from CBR, regarding a recent She-Hulk TV episode. SPOILERS!
https://www.cbr.com/mark-ruffalo-apologizes-chris-evans-reveal-big-mcu-secret/
- Spoiler:
- The gist is that in one scene, Jennifer Walkers/She-Hulk presses Bruce Banner/Hulk to divulge when or if Captain America/Steve Rogers ever lost his virginity. Notably, he was a sickly 90 lb weakling before becoming a super soldier, and then getting frozen for decades, before essentially carrying a torch for Peggy Carter, who he crushed on and kissed but never was shown on screen sleeping with. During a few of the Captain America films, Steve has more than one woman flirt with him (Sharon Carter and Black Widow specifically), but declines to capitalize on either. At the end of 2019's AVENGERS: ENDGAME, Rogers goes back in time and secretly lives a happily ever after married life with Peggy, where writer Stephen McFeely confirms resulted in two children. So the implication was that Rogers did not lose his virginity until that Time jaunt.
Well, in the SHE-HULK TV show, Banner (played by Mark Ruffalo, who jokingly apologizes to actor Chris Evans about it on Twitter) "revealed" that Steve Rogers lost his virginity to an unnamed woman "in 1943 on the USO tour." For those who may forget details from a 2011 film, the original "CAPTAIN AMERICA" saw Steve Rogers begin his "service" in the military on the USO tour as a propaganda performer once circumstances resulted in him being the only super-soldier, instead of the first of a squadron of them. It certainly is a plausible explanation, but it does suggest a "retcon" of stuff from a film from over a decade prior. This was in response to Walters lamenting that Rogers "died a virgin."
Now my point wasn't entirely to comment on some geek update (although I did because I AM a geek and can't help myself). My point is to indicate that even after 11 years, billions of box office dollars, hours of entertainment, and reams of commentary and reviews, there still was interest somewhere in Disney's production team regarding the virginity of a fictional superhero. That the producers and writers deliberately crafted a scene where their star heroine laments that a superhero died an older male virgin and his peer had to amend this assumption. That "correcting" the bedroom status of one of the primary heroes of the MCU so that he didn't wait until his 30's (at least) and a time travel jaunt to lose his virginity at the 11th hour to his first and only love was some essential thing which was worth spending millions to write, direct, film, produce, etc.
In the grand scheme of things...what does it matter? Captain America is a fictional character. More to the point, he's one of the greatest and purest heroes in superhero fiction; the type of man even Spider-Man wants to emulate. He saved the world and the universe many times. What does it matter when or if he was a virgin? Well, apparently to the people who literally help mold our pop culture, it mattered enough to craft an entire scene about it here (without getting into prior films' scenes, such as when Natasha at one point asks, "Was that your first kiss since 1945?"). It mattered to one of the Internet's primary comic book "news" websites (I say "news" but CBR is really just about promotional stuff 99% of the time). And it presumably matters to the millions if not billions of people who will watch SHE-HULK across the globe. And this moment was not the first where fictional characters fretted about this, just the latest example.
It reminds me of the time, during the 10 seasons SMALLVILLE was airing on The CW, that fans used to nickname Clark Kent "Supervirgin," either out of mockery or fondness. Due to his powers and social awkwardness, sex proved difficult for him, and the show essentially said that Clark was more or less a grown adult in his 20's by the time he lost it (to Lois Lane). Again, why should the sexual status of a fictional character matter? Well, it does matter. Major studios and the audiences they cater to seem to invest a lot in this, as if eager to not have their heroes be virgins, or virgins past "a certain age" unless they're locked in a dungeon or something.
Yes, both Steve Rogers and Clark Kent were elder virgins, supposedly, due to their choice and focus on their missions, not a lack of connecting to women. But these negative opinions of their "status" and the zeal to somehow "avenge" it still stand in the eyes of those who produce/write/direct/perform this stuff. If anything, it makes it more absurd that its still something producers care about. And that's not even getting into similar laments over various adaptations of Spider-Man.
So maybe DNL is wrong (or just seeing the world through an optimistic lens) when he believes this stuff doesn't matter. That some of us who spill tons of digital ink fretting about this are not just navel gazing; we have entire international studios, at the very least, believing that elder virginity is a negative, or worthy of mockery or "vindicating." And that a not insignificant chunk of their audience/customer base, if not a likely majority, share this belief. That maybe my belief that acknowledging I am a 40 year old virgin to a potential date on an OKC/POF Bio or on a fourth date or even shortly before a potential sexual encounter is a risky thing isn't solely in my head or a result of my nerves, but is a real thing that many real people invest opinions in. Yes, some of this is immaturity and/or some of the fanbase catering to a low denominator. But not all.
I wasn't "triggered," I just saw this article and thought it would be a scrap of evidence to my claim of, "See, its not just my anxiety alone."
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by KMR Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:20 am
Thing is, DNL's argument about virginity not being that big a deal isn't intended to be a statement of objective truth. The question of whether DNL's claim is right or wrong isn't really the point.
What he's advocating for is about cultivating a mindset. If you can get yourself to perceive your virginity as not that big a deal, that mindset is likely to improve your mental health, boost your confidence, and help you have more dating success compared to holding on to (and further reinforcing) your anxieties and insecurities about it. Because the mindsets and beliefs we hold shape our self-identity and influence our behavior, which in turn can influence how people perceive and react to you.
Because this is a nebulous thing. Regardless of the overall public perception about older virgins, when dealing with any given individual, your virginity may matter to them and it may not. You won't know for sure until it comes up. And people can hold different opinions and attitudes about a thing when dealing with an individual they have gotten to know personally versus what their general attitude is on a broader, hypothetical level. So even if the chances are skewed one way or another, no specific outcome is guaranteed in any given situation. In that context, it doesn't really matter which claim ("people care a lot about someone's virgin status" vs. "people aren't that concerned with someone's virgin status") is more "correct" or not.
Having anxieties about people's perceptions of virginity is completely understandable and valid, especially since society does indeed convey and reinforce those attitudes in certain ways, such as with the examples you describe and personal experiences you've had with people. I'm not saying you're wrong about it being a thing that exists, or even that you're blowing it out of proportion. I'm saying that it isn't so important to be right or wrong about this. But if holding the mindset of worrying about your virginity and how other people might perceive you for it is unproductive--or even counterproductive--in terms of your success and happiness with your dating life, then it's ultimately better to work on changing that mindset to a more positive one.
That's really the essence of DNL's argument, as I see it.
What he's advocating for is about cultivating a mindset. If you can get yourself to perceive your virginity as not that big a deal, that mindset is likely to improve your mental health, boost your confidence, and help you have more dating success compared to holding on to (and further reinforcing) your anxieties and insecurities about it. Because the mindsets and beliefs we hold shape our self-identity and influence our behavior, which in turn can influence how people perceive and react to you.
Because this is a nebulous thing. Regardless of the overall public perception about older virgins, when dealing with any given individual, your virginity may matter to them and it may not. You won't know for sure until it comes up. And people can hold different opinions and attitudes about a thing when dealing with an individual they have gotten to know personally versus what their general attitude is on a broader, hypothetical level. So even if the chances are skewed one way or another, no specific outcome is guaranteed in any given situation. In that context, it doesn't really matter which claim ("people care a lot about someone's virgin status" vs. "people aren't that concerned with someone's virgin status") is more "correct" or not.
Having anxieties about people's perceptions of virginity is completely understandable and valid, especially since society does indeed convey and reinforce those attitudes in certain ways, such as with the examples you describe and personal experiences you've had with people. I'm not saying you're wrong about it being a thing that exists, or even that you're blowing it out of proportion. I'm saying that it isn't so important to be right or wrong about this. But if holding the mindset of worrying about your virginity and how other people might perceive you for it is unproductive--or even counterproductive--in terms of your success and happiness with your dating life, then it's ultimately better to work on changing that mindset to a more positive one.
That's really the essence of DNL's argument, as I see it.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by inbloomer Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:44 am
KMR is right. At the most basic level, people are always a bit unpredictable - sometimes an interaction you're really worried about having with someone turns out totally fine, sometimes something you expected to be harmless they take very personally.
I just think the time to worry about how to handle it is when you've actually got to make those decisions in the near future, as opposed to spending hours and hours trying to plan for a hypothetical person's reactions.
I just think the time to worry about how to handle it is when you've actually got to make those decisions in the near future, as opposed to spending hours and hours trying to plan for a hypothetical person's reactions.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:43 pm
KMR wrote:Thing is, DNL's argument about virginity not being that big a deal isn't intended to be a statement of objective truth. The question of whether DNL's claim is right or wrong isn't really the point.
- Spoiler:
Because this is a nebulous thing. Regardless of the overall public perception about older virgins, when dealing with any given individual, your virginity may matter to them and it may not. You won't know for sure until it comes up. And people can hold different opinions and attitudes about a thing when dealing with an individual they have gotten to know personally versus what their general attitude is on a broader, hypothetical level. So even if the chances are skewed one way or another, no specific outcome is guaranteed in any given situation. In that context, it doesn't really matter which claim ("people care a lot about someone's virgin status" vs. "people aren't that concerned with someone's virgin status") is more "correct" or not.
Having anxieties about people's perceptions of virginity is completely understandable and valid, especially since society does indeed convey and reinforce those attitudes in certain ways, such as with the examples you describe and personal experiences you've had with people. I'm not saying you're wrong about it being a thing that exists, or even that you're blowing it out of proportion. I'm saying that it isn't so important to be right or wrong about this. But if holding the mindset of worrying about your virginity and how other people might perceive you for it is unproductive--or even counterproductive--in terms of your success and happiness with your dating life, then it's ultimately better to work on changing that mindset to a more positive one.
That's really the essence of DNL's argument, as I see it.
I appreciate your clarification and elaboration of DNL's argument (and as always, your well thought out replies). There are times where it almost sounds like an objective statement during the course of his usual letter answering format (which is the majority of his website/column at this point). It is worth a reminder that he advocates it as a mindset, like "the abundance mindset" and so on.
That said, while adopting a positive mindset and bolstering confidence are worthwhile goals, basing that on a mindset which is more about self-convincing and less about the world that is actually outside always feels, to me at least, like a variant of Dumbo's Magic Feather. You're relying on a mindset about something which is only true in your own mind and which might be unraveled with, essentially, any negative experience. Perhaps training wheels are a better comparison, but that doesn't avoid the fact that relying on them means a likely fall when they come off.
I've always preferred the model of reasonable expectations and preparation. I was always the person who took notes and studied course material, even as a grown up when I get workplace training. And I reference that when I get stuck in progress, which happens until you master something. You're right; people vary and not every reaction can be predictable. And while people can have differing opinions about a subject in both broad versus personal terms, in my experience, many people (not singling out women, just speaking of people, and not excluding myself) are very close minded and do not change their minds easily. In fact, a hostile reaction to someone challenging a fundamental belief is not uncommon. As such, it is more likely that such a revelation would cause anxiety in the other person, or cognitive dissonance, and neither are positive things for dating.
I wouldn't react that way, no. But for obvious reasons I have a lot of experience in such things, and thus a different perspective.
Acknowledging and planning for the majority social opinion of older virginity, or any cultural subgroup, to me isn't a bad thing. I think DNL's mindset strategy about virginity really only works for someone who wants to lose it to someone who fundamentally, spiritually, and personally connects with them on some deep level. Someone who is told and is one of those people who either are understanding or have a fetish for it. And that is fine, and lovely! But it means deliberately risking offering a fact which will likely lead to a rejection with many people who might otherwise be fine lovers if they didn't know this one thing.
On the other hand, an older virgin who isn't looking for some deep spiritual bond with someone and just wants to lose it as soon as possible to anyone who is mutually compatible, it is actually wise to be aware of that mainstream negative opinion and plan accordingly. DNL either assumes most virgins are in the former camp or should shift there, and I think that's presumptuous. I would prefer that DNL hammers this point in and adjusts the advice accordingly. Because self-meditating until you believe "there is no spoon" only works until you meet a spoon you can't bend mentally. Then its useless. Just because someone thinks their own elder virginity is no big deal doesn't mean it is no big deal, and being cavalier about it means risking turning off someone who may have otherwise been down to clown (to use modern slang). Or at least adding a heap of drama on it, assumed or not. And I would not advise anyone to use a strategy which may cause them to be single or a virgin longer unless they are willing to do that in order to find a more idealized lover.
Not having had sex past a certain age (especially past 30) is just not the same as never having ridden a roller coaster or seen STAR WARS. It just isn't. Breaking that self shame loop is very difficult, and expecting to limit ones lover pool to those who don't hold that extremely common belief is only adding further challenge and complication to a process which, by definition, is challenging and complicated. My strategy moving forward is to never admit it to anyone, no matter the circumstance or context, and do my best to muddle through my anxiety if things ever progress to an unfamiliar arena (which is nearly everything after a first date). That is why Moodgym may be helpful to try to tackle negative thoughts as they come (instead of pretending they don't exist or that society doesn't help breed them).
While I would certainly wouldn't mind meeting a woman who was open minded about this sort of thing and willing to lend a helping hand and encouraging demeanor, I am not going to bet my entire romantic future, what little of it there is, on the quest to find her. So long as I meet a woman I get along with, who likes me, and who isn't a raging MAGA fanatic, pro-lifer, or destructively selfish, I would be perfectly willing to pursue her. That may not be where all older virgins are, but it's where I am, and I just feel tailoring advice a little versus an idealized mindset would be more helpful to that community. Or any community, really.
inbloomer wrote:KMR is right. At the most basic level, people are always a bit unpredictable - sometimes an interaction you're really worried about having with someone turns out totally fine, sometimes something you expected to be harmless they take very personally.
I just think the time to worry about how to handle it is when you've actually got to make those decisions in the near future, as opposed to spending hours and hours trying to plan for a hypothetical person's reactions.
My problem is that if I ever am in that kind of situation, I am worried that my lack of experience will tip them off and ruin the experience.
I don't just mean in terms of emotional baggage. I have never taken my shirt off in front of another person. I have never applied lube. I have never kissed anyone, or held hands. I have never experienced this myself and it may feel bizarre the first time. People in my age group are not used to having to deal with that kind of thing. I have to prepare myself to a degree, or risk being naked out there in more ways than one.
Yes, "adorkable" is a thing. But there's being adorkable and then there's having to be coaxed out of a bordering nervous breakdown. And I frankly think DNL and most people overestimate how many woman are into "adorkable" men who aren't fictional characters, and are over 35.
I would need to be walked thru, step by step, as if I had never had sex before in my life (because I haven't). And I fear no amount of claiming "it's been a while since I dated" will counteract that. I would have to hope that the person I am in that situation with genuinely likes me enough that they are willing to deal with a LOT of that stuff (especially since it runs counter to my usual sardonic demeanor; "Oh, so now Mr. Funny has nothing to say, huh?"). And that is a slight, faint hope.
So trying to prepare myself with realistic, not idealized information is how I best prepare.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by inbloomer Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:54 am
I realise we're different people and have different views on this. It's just been my experience that even women who have relatively low standards in general will still quickly filter out people they feel are too different from them. It's one of the most fundamental forces: working to find common ground with someone where there's little of it is cognitively draining - people can do it when it's their job, but in their private life they prefer to be around people like them, with whom they feel they can totally be themselves.
I just don't see that trying to fool someone who would otherwise not like you for you is going to be an easier option than finding someone who does.
I just don't see that trying to fool someone who would otherwise not like you for you is going to be an easier option than finding someone who does.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:08 am
inbloomer wrote:I realise we're different people and have different views on this. It's just been my experience that even women who have relatively low standards in general will still quickly filter out people they feel are too different from them. It's one of the most fundamental forces: working to find common ground with someone where there's little of it is cognitively draining - people can do it when it's their job, but in their private life they prefer to be around people like them, with whom they feel they can totally be themselves.
I just don't see that trying to fool someone who would otherwise not like you for you is going to be an easier option than finding someone who does.
It's only natural that some of the things people do for work differ from what they do during their off time. You can't choose your coworkers/managers/bosses/clients/customers after all, and we all have to eat. It would be unrealistic to expect people to accept a "wider range" of people to date just because they can do that for their jobs.
Here is the thing, though; is being a virgin part of my identity, or just something I am "afflicted" with? I am sure some people might say that I've made it part of my identity whether I wanted to or not. But to me personally, it doesn't feel that way. The part which may be a part of my identity, from forced experience, is the notion that I am romantically unappealing to women. But that doesn't have to mean I am a virgin; there are plenty of people who have had sex (even many times!) who can't connect to people and have unsatisfying love lives. I see it as akin to the curse of the werewolf or a vampire, only nowhere near as cool as being a werewolf or a vampire. It is something I am suffering from, not distinctly a part of my true self, which doesn't have to be permanent.
As such, I feel it is possible to connect to someone, to have that commonality with them, to sync up with them on an emotional and/or intellectual level enough that mutual limerence or lust might occur without having to reveal my affliction. I have a lipoma (non cancerous fat tumor) on my back, which is far more immediate, for example. In fact, as I was arguing above, because of the negative social opinions about older virgins (even within the audience of MCU/comic fans who, in theory, should be more understanding but usually aren't), that by NOT revealing such information ever, I actually increase the odds of connecting to a perfectly compatible person who just happens to share the negative opinion of that one thing. To me someone isn't "a jerk" as DNL might call them if they reject someone for their virginity; they merely are sharing the majority social opinion on a subject, which is a tough thing to avoid doing. I mean, I myself can't shake that negative opinion either; it's unfair to just deem someone negatively just because they share that belief, too. Someone can reject me without me having to demonize them, and I actually don't care for it when DNL vaguely encourages older virgins to harbor any negative feelings towards someone who rejects them, at least so long as they weren't abnormally cruel about it. It's better when he says stuff like, "they self select out of your dating pool" on the subject and not "a-holes gonna a" or whatever. Like there is a difference between, "Jeez, I'm sorry but I really don't want to sleep with a virgin" versus "Eww, get away from me you loser!" And yes, I know realistically, neither things would likely happen, and if a woman felt that way she'd likely come up with a soft rejection and then ghost me.
And when I say I wouldn't reveal is under any circumstance, I mean it. I recently asked myself, "What if we were chatting about movies or TV shows we each like and she volunteered stuff like, 'THE 40 YEAR OLD VIRGIN' or 'JANE THE VIRGIN,' which are things that exist and that some people like. Would I use that to ease into revealing it?" And the answer was no, I wouldn't. People like slasher movies too, that doesn't mean they want to star in one.
Now, I get on an intellectual level how some of this stuff is supposed to link up. In theory, the reason why DNL or others might encourage being honest about that, at least after a few dates or before sex, is so that the experience is more satisfying and/or less stressful. In theory if you find someone more understanding, the anxiety might go down and any mistakes might be easier to gloss over because the context is known. And has KMR, DNL and others have said, there are a notable minority of women who either don't care about older male virgins and/or actually fetishize it and find it a turn on. They might argue, "well, you've waited 25 years and avoided having all of the regretful, trial-and-error sex that the people you envy had in their youths before they found better lovers. It can't hurt to spend a little more time finding a truly great and understanding lover so your first time is more enjoyable for the both of you." And I even get how hiding this "affliction" from someone, especially someone I otherwise connect with, can ironically lead to the sort of anxiety wracked performance and potential bedroom shock/rejection that I am afraid of. I get all of it. It isn't a lack of understanding.
But my argument is that while it isn't a bad suggestion to "limit" one's dating pool only to those more understanding of it, doing so extends the time one is a virgin. And maybe some of us don't care of it is perfect or 100% satisfying, and if anything, get anxious about sharing so personal a secret to a relative stranger who is not a therapist (and sometimes even to a therapist). We just want it to end. I've befriended many women who, if circumstances were different could have been lovers. I am certain almost every one of them would have been surprised, at least, to learn my secret. That surprise would have likely ended negatively, or at least forever shaped how they think of me in private. The beauty of Facebook once allowed me to see how some of my longest and dearest friends, including a former crush, treat my secret as a shared in-joke because they all were among the few people who knew. If people I have known since high school weren't able to see me beyond my one secret at least sometimes, what can I expect of strangers? That still doesn't take away from the majority of the other things I may have in common with new people. It isn't that I can't make connections to women; I've just never made a romantic one, and I have to amend my own perceptions and negative thoughts so that if I do, I recognize it and capitalize instead of disbelieving it.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by inbloomer Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:50 am
We definitely differ on that. My feeling is that anyone who got to know me well and wasn't a complete idiot would put two and two together that a) if I'd ever had a long-term girlfriend, I'd have mentioned her by now; and b) I'm not likely to have ever been into sex without a strong connection (e.g. I'm touch-sensitive). So, if it got to the point of discussing it directly, it shouldn't be too far off what they were expecting. I guess I do see it as more of my identity - albeit with bad luck definitely a major contributing factor - than a curse or dark secret in the way you do.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by KMR Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:58 am
To be clear, I don't actually advocate for you to disclose your virginity to the people you're dating, nor was I trying to imply that in my post. I think you (or anyone else in your position) can choose whether to disclose it or not, whichever you are most comfortable with and feel better about doing. I would recommend not outright lying about it if asked directly, but I think it's perfectly fine to not volunteer that kind of information. At your age, people in your dating pool will generally just assume you've had some past experience with sex and relationships and may not even bother to ask about it.
I still think cultivating a mindset where you don't worry about this quite so much would be beneficial, regardless of whether it changes your decision to disclose or not disclose that information to others.
I still think cultivating a mindset where you don't worry about this quite so much would be beneficial, regardless of whether it changes your decision to disclose or not disclose that information to others.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:11 pm
inbloomer wrote:We definitely differ on that. My feeling is that anyone who got to know me well and wasn't a complete idiot would put two and two together that a) if I'd ever had a long-term girlfriend, I'd have mentioned her by now; and b) I'm not likely to have ever been into sex without a strong connection (e.g. I'm touch-sensitive). So, if it got to the point of discussing it directly, it shouldn't be too far off what they were expecting. I guess I do see it as more of my identity - albeit with bad luck definitely a major contributing factor - than a curse or dark secret in the way you do.
Don't get me wrong; I can relate to some of that, especially a). I stated in an earlier diatribe that a 40 year old man who has no children and has never been married or divorced is a bit unusual for my age cohort. I totally am anxious about a woman possibly sorting something out just from that basic information. I don't think not being into sex "without a strong connection" is automatically a bad thing. It could be spun as being a guy who isn't into one night stands or laser focused on it, which could be refreshing. But, if you feel it is part of your identity, I can't assert otherwise.
That said, while it is probable that a woman might figure out that you are inexperienced and/or on an extended "dry spell," it is still doubtful she'd predict you were a virgin just because it is still seen as a rare, nearly fictional thing of people at a certain age. Part of why it comes up more in high school and college is, well, it's more common for teenagers or young adults to still be virgins.
For me I see it as a symptom of my identity. It is the unquestionable proof of my identity. But such things can be hidden.
KMR wrote:To be clear, I don't actually advocate for you to disclose your virginity to the people you're dating, nor was I trying to imply that in my post. I think you (or anyone else in your position) can choose whether to disclose it or not, whichever you are most comfortable with and feel better about doing. I would recommend not outright lying about it if asked directly, but I think it's perfectly fine to not volunteer that kind of information. At your age, people in your dating pool will generally just assume you've had some past experience with sex and relationships and may not even bother to ask about it.
I still think cultivating a mindset where you don't worry about this quite so much would be beneficial, regardless of whether it changes your decision to disclose or not disclose that information to others.
Thanks for the clarification.
I don't intend to lie about it if asked directly. However, I figure that such a direct question is exceedingly rare outside of college that the odds of facing it are near zero. Although knowing myself, if asked directly I would probably give a cheeky admission which isn't literally an admission like, "I'm going to assert my Fifth Amendment privilege." But as you said, such a thing is rare and it's far more probable that people will assume I have had sex regardless, specifically because the only examples most people know are fictional characters, or mass shooters. And so long as I act like neither, I should be okay.
I acknowledge that sometimes I seem to be trying to ask for two things which can't co-exist without the other. I want the sort of understanding and mulligans a woman might be willing to extend to a guy literally doing it for the first time, without actually admitting it and giving her the chance of full context. I get that it is an illogical desire. Which is why the best I hope for is keeping it a secret and if in the position, muddling thru as best I can. That apparently communication or wanting to cuddle or engage in foreplay is so damn rare in men my age that she'll overlook that I am a fumbling moron about it. Of course, they don't write romance novels titled, "THE GUY WHO AT LEAST TRIED."
As I have mentioned before, the main source of fretting is that I likely won't be terribly gifted in the kissing and/or lovemaking departments my first time out, and will be an absolute bundle of nerves. Now, there are many people like that who aren't virgins. Many comedians have made their living about being neurotic. The downside is that without the foreknowledge, a lady might assume I am just lousy, which is also not uncommon of single men at any age (but especially over 30). And while I don't doubt that there is a learning curve with every new lover because people like different things and methods of touch, I DO doubt how understanding or even aware the average person is regarding that. After all, an evening of Netflix with the cat or lattes with pals are far better than experimenting with a lay that is looking to be lousy. I am aware that once many women genuinely "like" a guy romantically, they can have "love goggles" on and be more forgiving than usual, even to a fault (lord knows DNL gets plenty of letters from women like this, as does any advice columnist). I just never experienced that, don't know what it is like, and would probably struggle to realize it if I saw it unless she was very, very blunt. Which is why I am trying to work on my disbelief, because it does me no favors. Aside for avoiding being Catfished. I would probably be the most amusing guest star of an episode of that ever. 100% immunity to being Catfished!
"Hey, cutie, want to meet for coffee?"
"If you think I'm cute, we should probably meet at Pearle Vision instead."
"C'mon, you can't be that bad."
"My face is registered as a lethal weapon in at least ten states."
"Your witty dialogue is turning me on."
"You're not getting my credit card number or PayPal account."
Seriously, though, I do get that cultivating a more positive mindset about my virginity wouldn't hurt. I simply feel that doing so is risking ignoring reality, to the point that aforementioned major studios feel the need to address such "negative opinions" in regards to the sexual histories of fictional characters like Steve Rogers or Clark Kent (or Peter Parker or others I could mention). It's tough to see it as a positive when even freaking Disney thinks it's not (which is absurd since Disney is arguably the source of a lot of post modern "virginity purity myths" in pop culture with their Disney princess stuff; virginity is pure and wonderful if it's Cinderella or Aurora but its something to be "explained away" if its Steve Rogers? Did Cinderella ever punch Thanos?). If not even legendary superheroes can escape it, it's tough for us mere mortals to.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Enail Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:27 pm
I agree with KMR here that there's no particular need to disclose it unless you wanted to do so for yourself, but that just not focusing on it so much would be really, really beneficial to you. Again, it's just something you're using to take endless tours through all the negative stuff you think about yourself and your detailed projections of how others will react based on your fears, and none of that actually is actually useful to you in terms of navigating the situation.
You've thought out how you'd want to respond to various questions that touch on inexperience or virginity, you've considered and prepared yourself for the possibility that people will react negatively (oh boy have you considered it
): you have already done everything that you can do for which thinking about the fact that virgins can be viewed negatively, can be useful to you. So at this point the only useful approach is to focus on the fact that some people won't have a problem with it, and take action.
True and not true, pouring over scraps of evidence and trying to parse exactly what the objective reality is between blustering optimism and endless anxiety, is honestly irrelevant for situations like this. What's true only matters to the degree that it helps you make a decision, and it sounds like you've already made one, right? You want to try? So to continue thinking in a way that's useful for getting where you want to be, trying to develop a mindset that it's not a big deal is going to be more productive than staying focused on it.
You've thought out how you'd want to respond to various questions that touch on inexperience or virginity, you've considered and prepared yourself for the possibility that people will react negatively (oh boy have you considered it
): you have already done everything that you can do for which thinking about the fact that virgins can be viewed negatively, can be useful to you. So at this point the only useful approach is to focus on the fact that some people won't have a problem with it, and take action. True and not true, pouring over scraps of evidence and trying to parse exactly what the objective reality is between blustering optimism and endless anxiety, is honestly irrelevant for situations like this. What's true only matters to the degree that it helps you make a decision, and it sounds like you've already made one, right? You want to try? So to continue thinking in a way that's useful for getting where you want to be, trying to develop a mindset that it's not a big deal is going to be more productive than staying focused on it.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:25 am
Enail wrote:I agree with KMR here that there's no particular need to disclose it unless you wanted to do so for yourself, but that just not focusing on it so much would be really, really beneficial to you. Again, it's just something you're using to take endless tours through all the negative stuff you think about yourself and your detailed projections of how others will react based on your fears, and none of that actually is actually useful to you in terms of navigating the situation.
You've thought out how you'd want to respond to various questions that touch on inexperience or virginity, you've considered and prepared yourself for the possibility that people will react negatively (oh boy have you considered it
True and not true, pouring over scraps of evidence and trying to parse exactly what the objective reality is between blustering optimism and endless anxiety, is honestly irrelevant for situations like this. What's true only matters to the degree that it helps you make a decision, and it sounds like you've already made one, right? You want to try? So to continue thinking in a way that's useful for getting where you want to be, trying to develop a mindset that it's not a big deal is going to be more productive than staying focused on it.
That bolded portion may win the Pulitzer for "Understatement of the Year."
My "considerations" of it are only slightly less than the manuscript to WAR & PEACE.Jokes aside, the primary reason I posted that stuff about She-Hulk was the absurdity of it mixed with my usual dissatisfaction with DNL's advice to older virgins (which comes up a lot in his letter column) because I think it verges on offering unrealistic expectations and false hope without him realizing it.
I realize on an intellectual level the absurdity of getting "extra" emotional about yet another "birthday as a virgin" just because it coincides with a film from almost 20 years ago. My problems in that area are just the same now as they were when I was 38 or 39 and will probably be the same when I am 41 or 42. That film hit the zeitgeist, though, and its title has been repeated endlessly about that subject.
Yes, I would like to "try," ideally at a time when I am not "distracted" from very real stress revolving around things that have nothing to do with dating (my mother's cancer, our never ending, downward spiraling housing court case) and the greater impacts on society and dating in general die to an endemic and the end of Roe (both of which had nothing to do with any of us). Maybe I am learning how short life can be and having regrets stinks. Unfortunately a lot of the things which are taking up a lot of emotional bandwidth are things I have minimal control over. Trying to resolve my disbelief in positive outcome I feel is the one thing I can try to get a handle on. It won't be easy, because my virginity is, to use DNL's terms, the Primary Evidence Exhibit of my Jerkbrain. No amount of positive self talk can overcome, "You have never succeeded in dating. This is the absolute proof that no woman wants you. Do you really think this time, out of all times, will be any different?" And my answer is always, "No." At the moment there is absolutely nothing a woman can do or say to amend this. Nothing. If anything it would make me more suspicious. I can't control the endemic or housing court much, nor the political upheavals. But maybe with some help I can try to control the disbelief, to at least get it under control that I can put an earnest effort out there. At least to draft an online dating Bio which captures my personality without reading like a warning label. I literally do not have the time to shoot down any success I may get. Lord knows I (like most people who try to date) will be ignored or rejected most of the time. That comes with the territory. But if I ever get a nibble, by god I have to yank that sucker like there is no tomorrow.
I will never develop a mindset that my own virginity is "no big deal." I am sorry but that is a level of faith in humanity or ignorance of social trends and opinions that I cannot embrace. Not even superhero TV shows will let me. The world around me has decided it IS a big deal, the sort of secret which can instantly torpedo a positive experience. However, I do believe I can adopt a mindset that if I can conceal it, get my disbelief under control, put out some honest effort and properly capitalize on any positive momentum should I ever receive any, I may be able to do this. If there is one thing I have learned from my years at call centers, it is that acting like you know what you are doing well enough to convince the other person can smooth over a lot, including buying time to figure out something I don't genuinely know. I know that if I ever were on the verge of a sexual experience, or even kissing, I will be absolutely petrified. It will simultaneously be the best and worst moment of my romantic life, with a ton of pressure. I think I can adopt a mindset that I can handle that.
Some of DNL's better advice which I need to keep at my forefront more is the concept of neurotic messes like me making good the enemy of the perfect. I am probably far worse of a judge of myself than any woman I encounter will be (outside a courtroom). The things I worry about in myself many women won't notice or not care so much about, so long as I am not an idiot or a creep. Dating over 40 is hard for anyone and the low ratio of men my age who give a passionate damn about sexual performance alone may help counteract the effect my nerves and fumblings have on the situation. A lot of the men who are just "lousy" at kissing or sex don't want to change or improve and may get upset when a woman mentions preferences; I'd be grateful for any instruction and I take direction well. Women who date men vastly younger than they are are often called "cougars," and while some may genuinely be into vastly younger guys, I think a lot of them if not a majority would be fine dating men closer to their own age, if more of those men were interested and/or not so fundamentally broken. There are a lot of lonely, frustrated women out there over 35 and maybe I could appeal to that niche despite my many faults. Maybe women, even in NYC, are not as cynical as I believe them to be and genuinely wouldn't get too suspicious of finding a 40 year old guy who has no kids and was never married. Maybe some of them would just be grateful and run with it.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Enail Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:20 pm
I guess the thing to me is that by focusing on it so much and so obsessively, you're making it an endlessly big deal to yourself. You don't have to believe it's not a big deal in the sense of believing that telling a date about it will probably go well, but I think you very badly need to work on treating it as "not a big deal" in the sense of just not thinking so much about it at all. Don't give it such a big space in your life.
The growing inequality in society is a big deal in the sense that it's a massive problem, but if I think about it so much it's taking up three quarters of my brainspace while I'm trying to calculate my personal budget, it's being a big deal to me to an unhealthy degree.
And that means when you run into something that claims it isn't a big deal, or see something that confirms your belief that it is, don't start crafting a case for why that is or isn't correct or what it means in terms of societal views or the ways you'll get around it if someone asks (this one I think is useful to a point, but you're well past that point) or exactly how they're likely to react or any of that. When you run into something that makes you think about it, you pick up your thoughts and put them down on a different track. If your thoughts go back to them and you start writing an article in your head, again, pick your thoughts up and put them somewhere else. Until eventually you find you can not think about it that much even if you are considering asking someone out or meeting new people or whatever. Whatever the reality is or isn't, the degree to which you think about it is crippling you.
The growing inequality in society is a big deal in the sense that it's a massive problem, but if I think about it so much it's taking up three quarters of my brainspace while I'm trying to calculate my personal budget, it's being a big deal to me to an unhealthy degree.
And that means when you run into something that claims it isn't a big deal, or see something that confirms your belief that it is, don't start crafting a case for why that is or isn't correct or what it means in terms of societal views or the ways you'll get around it if someone asks (this one I think is useful to a point, but you're well past that point) or exactly how they're likely to react or any of that. When you run into something that makes you think about it, you pick up your thoughts and put them down on a different track. If your thoughts go back to them and you start writing an article in your head, again, pick your thoughts up and put them somewhere else. Until eventually you find you can not think about it that much even if you are considering asking someone out or meeting new people or whatever. Whatever the reality is or isn't, the degree to which you think about it is crippling you.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:58 pm
Enail wrote:I guess the thing to me is that by focusing on it so much and so obsessively, you're making it an endlessly big deal to yourself. You don't have to believe it's not a big deal in the sense of believing that telling a date about it will probably go well, but I think you very badly need to work on treating it as "not a big deal" in the sense of just not thinking so much about it at all. Don't give it such a big space in your life.
The growing inequality in society is a big deal in the sense that it's a massive problem, but if I think about it so much it's taking up three quarters of my brainspace while I'm trying to calculate my personal budget, it's being a big deal to me to an unhealthy degree.
And that means when you run into something that claims it isn't a big deal, or see something that confirms your belief that it is, don't start crafting a case for why that is or isn't correct or what it means in terms of societal views or the ways you'll get around it if someone asks (this one I think is useful to a point, but you're well past that point) or exactly how they're likely to react or any of that. When you run into something that makes you think about it, you pick up your thoughts and put them down on a different track. If your thoughts go back to them and you start writing an article in your head, again, pick your thoughts up and put them somewhere else. Until eventually you find you can not think about it that much even if you are considering asking someone out or meeting new people or whatever. Whatever the reality is or isn't, the degree to which you think about it is crippling you.
Because I am a dork and can't help myself, I am going to start by paraphrasing Colossus' monologue in 2016's "DEADPOOL:"
"Everyone thinks being an older male virgin is a full-time job. Wake up a virgin. Brush your teeth a virgin. Go to work a virgin. Not true. Over a season or two, there are only four or five moments that really bring it up. Moments when you're offered a choice - to make an online dating profile, determine if a friend likes you, try asking out a woman at a bar or club, or even plot out a strategy for doing any of these things. In these moments, everything else falls away. And then you are reminded of what you are."
It isn't that I can't focus on other areas of my life. A major chunk of the reason why I am where I am is because I have. I abandoned or gave up on any dating prospects because of my workload, or stress, or limited emotional bandwidth for years worth of time. It actually took me a very long time -- until my mid 30's at least -- to realize that I simply find bars and clubs to be overwhelming and that in smaller groups I can flourish, and that maybe that is just who I am and not some negative reason to hate myself. Having financial responsibilities, a sick mother and/or landlord problems does a lot to sap dating interest or will. I can settle into routine just fine without thinking about it. Part of the reason why I text bomb the Entertainment Joys topic because that is genuinely what I enjoy doing; writing about geek media.
It's only when I dabble into this one area of my life which I have always found unfulfilling, frustrating, and unsuccessful that it comes up. It's the background reminder, at best, that I have no experience to fall back on and no expectations for anything positive. I can psych myself up all I want, but in the end it is just...there. You have a point, I can manage it better, but in the end it will always be there, at the bottom of the cellar. If I could spin it into a positive that would be helpful, but that would only work in more devoted religious groups (which typically lean conservative) that I am not a part of nor do I want to be. Even my mother has repeatedly claim I lie and say I "used to be religious" if it ever came up, which I think is horrible advice. It is hard to be confident in an area where you've always failed, and failed harder than about 99% of the population. And it only really comes up when, ironically, I'm trying to make steps to stop failing, or at least fail in better and more recent ways for the sake of my ego. I'm confident in other areas of my life and work, and in some areas where I am not, I can even fake it to a minimal degree. But with dating that's kind of lost. I am much better with talking to people (women included) now than when I was younger and am much better at reading cues. I almost take for granted that I can make people laugh at will. But when it comes time to make that pivot toward something romantic, I have nothing. Because I, well, have nothing. That's where it gets crippling. It's like trying to have faith in yourself to fly a plane when you've never had a lesson, or touched a wheel, or seen an engine outside of a movie.
Call it a midlife crisis at this point, I guess, only in this one area it's like a neverlife crisis. Usually the side of me which just focuses on managing the rest of my life and putting this aside prevails. But every now and then, usually around birthdays it resurfaces. And this time I had a pop culture reference behind it. I am literally a punchline now. It somehow feels different.
I can try to manage the virginity thing as I try to move forward. I think managing or handling my sense of disbelief is more important. I know they're kind of linked, but sometimes if you can't cut off the head of the dragon, settling for a tail or a wing can still win the battle, or at least make it more winnable. I know I don't need to self cure it all; I just need to manage it a little better that I can get out there again and if I actually get a positive reaction back (which is no guarantee and not something anyone is entitled to get) that I don't self sabotage it. I don't have the time for that anymore.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Enail Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:19 pm
Datelessman wrote:
It's only when I dabble into this one area of my life which I have always found unfulfilling, frustrating, and unsuccessful that it comes up. It's the background reminder, at best, that I have no experience to fall back on and no expectations for anything positive. I can psych myself up all I want, but in the end it is just...there. You have a point, I can manage it better, but in the end it will always be there, at the bottom of the cellar. If I could spin it into a positive that would be helpful, but that would only work in more devoted religious groups (which typically lean conservative) that I am not a part of nor do I want to be. Even my mother has repeatedly claim I lie and say I "used to be religious" if it ever came up, which I think is horrible advice. It is hard to be confident in an area where you've always failed, and failed harder than about 99% of the population. And it only really comes up when, ironically, I'm trying to make steps to stop failing, or at least fail in better and more recent ways for the sake of my ego. I'm confident in other areas of my life and work, and in some areas where I am not, I can even fake it to a minimal degree. But with dating that's kind of lost. I am much better with talking to people (women included) now than when I was younger and am much better at reading cues. I almost take for granted that I can make people laugh at will. But when it comes time to make that pivot toward something romantic, I have nothing. Because I, well, have nothing. That's where it gets crippling. It's like trying to have faith in yourself to fly a plane when you've never had a lesson, or touched a wheel, or seen an engine outside of a movie.
You're doing it again right here. I don't mean that it's getting in the way of other parts of your life, so much as it's getting in the way of this part. You can't outthink this. And honestly, I feel like even commenting on your posts is kind of just giving you more jumping off points to go round on round on this and wear down that track even deeper. So I think I'm gonna stop here.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:57 pm
Enail wrote:
You're doing it again right here. I don't mean that it's getting in the way of other parts of your life, so much as it's getting in the way of this part. You can't outthink this. And honestly, I feel like even commenting on your posts is kind of just giving you more jumping off points to go round on round on this and wear down that track even deeper. So I think I'm gonna stop here.
Given the topic of the thread, it can be tough to avoid. I hadn't started a topic like this revolving around my romantic status or goals in at least a year, though.
I see it as a net positive, honestly. Like I said at the start, I have a blog where I can kvetch all I want and remain unchallenged. Yet even there, I've not felt the need to post there more than once a month (and sometimes once every other month) for quite a few years now. I am still doing the Moodgym as per your recommendation. I am trying to take it slow and soak it in, since it is not a game to be "binged" through.
If/when I start drafting an OKC/POF Bio, I'll either post it here or revive the old OKC advice thread for it.
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:14 pm
Considering how many libraries full of text I've posted here and the original DNL forum years ago regarding some of my half baked "ideas" about dating or my own personal philosophy about it, I figure it's appropriate to post in a topic like this of when some of them get challenged by life experiences. And that happened for two of my long held beliefs at one of my best (male) friend's birthday BBQ's over the summer. It is a big social gathering for me which is an annual tradition, and this one was bigger than most since it was at a more public venue and not in front of his apartment building.
1). One of my long held "beliefs" which usually doesn't paint me in a great light but I've typed about at length is the idea, to be blunt, that I "deserve" the opportunity to pursue the sorts of poor relationship choices in order to "get laid" that many others do when younger due to inexperience in the name of fairness. By that I mean I'd gone on about how while I won't date just ANYONE, that I would be willing to date someone who was into me even if their personalities were awful if they were "my type" physically. The example of an "awful personality" I commonly used was a far-right Trump supporter, since even in NY, it is not rare to run into a zealous conservative. They just don't have the twang. I also sometimes expressed my willingness to go along with a toxic, selfish, or dominating woman due to a lack of better options, even if I know this going in (i.e. from a first date). I've been told many times that is a horrible thing to do and it's not worth it, but I usually dismissed that as, essentially, a position of privilege. "It's easy for YOU to suggest a 40 year old virgin wait indefinitely longer for someone perfect, Mr./Mrs. Happy Relationship," my Id might whisper. "You're not the ones who compare human touch to science fiction."
Well, my pal invited a few of his far younger coworkers (he's the middle manager of a chain pharmacy) to the party and I basically got a front row seat to how living with this kind of dynamic works. And since these folks were relative strangers, I didn't have any biases (as I might for a longer term friend or associate I knew well). A 21 year old dude was dating a 19 year old woman, and despite being younger, she was clearly the dominant personality. Even in the context of a social gathering she was ordering him around or acting a bit demeaning toward him. And as a zealous conservative, she couldn't even get through a BBQ without political arguments and throwing Fox "News" talking points and so on, even though none of us were there to talk politics (we were there to eat food, drink beers, and chill). At one point after being ordered around for hours, the dude replied to someone who said something to the effect of, "Look at me, she's way more attractive than me and I'd never do better easily," since he's overweight and not tall. No one was in a panic about this since they're young; likely having their first relationship which lasted beyond a month or two. It's expected to run it's course; it isn't an abusive 10 year marriage.
Still, as a neutral observer I found dealing with someone that incompatible in terms of personality/mindset exhausting. I couldn't imagine myself dealing with it all with a straight face for even an entire date, much less weeks or months. Even being demeaned or dominated would ware thin; I was getting annoyed just watching it as a spectator. Could the sex really be that good? When I was 21 I could have seen myself acting similar; I kind of always assumed I would be appealing to a woman who wanted to dominate a schlub for her own reasons. But seeing it play out in front of me at 40, I don't imagine I could deal with it for longer than a one night stand, and even that would mean one or two entire dates. If I did I doubt I could endure it for longer than the purely mercenary task of ending my near eternal sexual futility, but even that might be more stressful than a day at the office. And should sex be that stressful?
One thing which doesn't get said a lot, at least by me, about the older virgin thing is how many "experienced" people regret some of their past relationships or encounters. I am not talking about people who were raped/molested/passive aggressively manipulated into sex; they are survivors of crimes. But I am talking about people who regretted taking on a lover due to things like youthful ignorance or peer pressure. One of the few advantages someone like me has in my position is a better ability to pick and choose a more compatible lover. That doesn't mean I have to wait until I found someone absolutely perfect for me...but I could, a lot easier than someone going through hormonal development in high school or college. Most people I know would probably erase one person from their black books if they could. I have the benefit of finding someone who is not themselves going through juvenile development and extreme peer pressure (not to say it ends for adult women, but it isn't the same as high school or college). Are four lousy relationships worth more than one good one? And while all of us "round up" with a lover (no one ever gets 100% of what they want in another human), is it worth it to "settle" out of desperation? I guess the difference is people who are 19-21 have the time for a negative experiment and to move on and grow; I don't. But conversely, if I do have a finite time period, do I want to spend it with someone that exhausting or miserable to deal with just because she's willing to sleep with me and is "my type" physically? I thought I was, but seeing it up close and in vivid color, I...have my doubts. I mean, what's the worst that can happen; I get dumped and get no sex for setting a boundary? Baby, I could do "no sex" standing on my head. I'm the Prime Minister of No Sex.
2). Another thing that happened was my best friend was involved with his close friend (who may be his ex) who wanted to set him up with a woman, and had introduced the pair. My pal is 40 like me, but unlike me, his friends and family are more actively concerned with him being single and actually do tangible things about it. He's not a virgin but I doubt he's had many lovers and he hasn't had a relationship in many years, if not a decade. They were discussing a woman she'd set my pal up with and he had a big problem: he considered her gorgeous, but "stupid." At this stage I am very hesitant to consider a woman "stupid" so I tried to probe and ask if it was just having different mindsets or hobbies. But even the person who set this up seemed to readily admit the woman "isn't that smart." The woman was reportedly a nice person, so in my geeky attempt to come up with a positive example I compared her to Sailor Moon (who may be the anime poster woman for an airhead with a heart of gold). My pal was really struggling about this (he claimed at being unable to have meaningful discussions with her on most things), and basically wanted advice from me, as one of his oldest friends. I told him that it depends on what he is looking for; if he is looking for someone long term like a wife and a "gap in intelligence" was that fundamental a problem, then no, he shouldn't pursue. But if he isn't and she is a nice person, then it may be worth it to give things a try, since nice people who won't hurt others are rare. I also told him, as someone who turned 40 earlier, that regrets become more of a thing and that they're best to avoid.
This felt similar but different than his younger coworkers. I wondered what I would do in his shoes. This isn't someone with a negative personality or zealous political opposition; just someone "less intelligent." I keep using quotes because I consider that stuff relative and subjective and I really don't like using obviously negative terms about women. Women have been facing the "dumb bombshell" stereotype/social expectation since we fell out of the trees, so I am very sensitive about that. I try not to consider myself that much smarter than others, but I've been told I can come off as condescending and I don't suffer fools for long at work (at least before I moved to another department where I don't deal with callers). My problem is I have so much negative self-talk that if I did meet a woman who liked me but I sensed some genuine "intelligence gap," it would be super easy for my jerkbrain to go, "Oh, she is literally too dumb to realize how lame you are. It would violate your moral code to take advantage of her." I basically asked myself, "Would I date a 30-something year old Sailor Moon?" I felt that if I were in my friend's position I would pursue things, but partly due to not looking for anything long term so I am more flexible. Nice people are rare. And I suppose a healthier way of looking at it is IF I did meet someone in which there was an objective "intelligence gap" and it wasn't just having differing experiences or something, is that she could be looking for someone who doesn't treat her badly just because she's not a PhD and is willing to explain stuff or help her navigate when need be. That if anything it might make it "more justifiable" if it wasn't just a woman taking pity on me but she actually got something meaningful out of me, too. I kind of...struggle to accept the concept that I could deliver anything meaningful to a relationship beyond a warm body and a sense of humor. That is where the angst about performance comes from, I think from others too. The idea of, "well, at least I'd better satisfy her sexually," since being inexperienced means it is tough accepting the concept of another person gaining meaningful emotional or intellectual satisfaction otherwise with me.
So TL:DR a recent social gathering made me rethink some of my long held beliefs. I may be less desperate to pursue a toxic relationship just for looks and to end my plight, but I would likely be willing to pursue someone even if we were different so long as she was genuinely a sweet person.
And no, the time was not right to ask my friend's friends to set me up. It was HIS birthday party. You don't upstage the birthday boy.
1). One of my long held "beliefs" which usually doesn't paint me in a great light but I've typed about at length is the idea, to be blunt, that I "deserve" the opportunity to pursue the sorts of poor relationship choices in order to "get laid" that many others do when younger due to inexperience in the name of fairness. By that I mean I'd gone on about how while I won't date just ANYONE, that I would be willing to date someone who was into me even if their personalities were awful if they were "my type" physically. The example of an "awful personality" I commonly used was a far-right Trump supporter, since even in NY, it is not rare to run into a zealous conservative. They just don't have the twang. I also sometimes expressed my willingness to go along with a toxic, selfish, or dominating woman due to a lack of better options, even if I know this going in (i.e. from a first date). I've been told many times that is a horrible thing to do and it's not worth it, but I usually dismissed that as, essentially, a position of privilege. "It's easy for YOU to suggest a 40 year old virgin wait indefinitely longer for someone perfect, Mr./Mrs. Happy Relationship," my Id might whisper. "You're not the ones who compare human touch to science fiction."
Well, my pal invited a few of his far younger coworkers (he's the middle manager of a chain pharmacy) to the party and I basically got a front row seat to how living with this kind of dynamic works. And since these folks were relative strangers, I didn't have any biases (as I might for a longer term friend or associate I knew well). A 21 year old dude was dating a 19 year old woman, and despite being younger, she was clearly the dominant personality. Even in the context of a social gathering she was ordering him around or acting a bit demeaning toward him. And as a zealous conservative, she couldn't even get through a BBQ without political arguments and throwing Fox "News" talking points and so on, even though none of us were there to talk politics (we were there to eat food, drink beers, and chill). At one point after being ordered around for hours, the dude replied to someone who said something to the effect of, "Look at me, she's way more attractive than me and I'd never do better easily," since he's overweight and not tall. No one was in a panic about this since they're young; likely having their first relationship which lasted beyond a month or two. It's expected to run it's course; it isn't an abusive 10 year marriage.
Still, as a neutral observer I found dealing with someone that incompatible in terms of personality/mindset exhausting. I couldn't imagine myself dealing with it all with a straight face for even an entire date, much less weeks or months. Even being demeaned or dominated would ware thin; I was getting annoyed just watching it as a spectator. Could the sex really be that good? When I was 21 I could have seen myself acting similar; I kind of always assumed I would be appealing to a woman who wanted to dominate a schlub for her own reasons. But seeing it play out in front of me at 40, I don't imagine I could deal with it for longer than a one night stand, and even that would mean one or two entire dates. If I did I doubt I could endure it for longer than the purely mercenary task of ending my near eternal sexual futility, but even that might be more stressful than a day at the office. And should sex be that stressful?
One thing which doesn't get said a lot, at least by me, about the older virgin thing is how many "experienced" people regret some of their past relationships or encounters. I am not talking about people who were raped/molested/passive aggressively manipulated into sex; they are survivors of crimes. But I am talking about people who regretted taking on a lover due to things like youthful ignorance or peer pressure. One of the few advantages someone like me has in my position is a better ability to pick and choose a more compatible lover. That doesn't mean I have to wait until I found someone absolutely perfect for me...but I could, a lot easier than someone going through hormonal development in high school or college. Most people I know would probably erase one person from their black books if they could. I have the benefit of finding someone who is not themselves going through juvenile development and extreme peer pressure (not to say it ends for adult women, but it isn't the same as high school or college). Are four lousy relationships worth more than one good one? And while all of us "round up" with a lover (no one ever gets 100% of what they want in another human), is it worth it to "settle" out of desperation? I guess the difference is people who are 19-21 have the time for a negative experiment and to move on and grow; I don't. But conversely, if I do have a finite time period, do I want to spend it with someone that exhausting or miserable to deal with just because she's willing to sleep with me and is "my type" physically? I thought I was, but seeing it up close and in vivid color, I...have my doubts. I mean, what's the worst that can happen; I get dumped and get no sex for setting a boundary? Baby, I could do "no sex" standing on my head. I'm the Prime Minister of No Sex.
2). Another thing that happened was my best friend was involved with his close friend (who may be his ex) who wanted to set him up with a woman, and had introduced the pair. My pal is 40 like me, but unlike me, his friends and family are more actively concerned with him being single and actually do tangible things about it. He's not a virgin but I doubt he's had many lovers and he hasn't had a relationship in many years, if not a decade. They were discussing a woman she'd set my pal up with and he had a big problem: he considered her gorgeous, but "stupid." At this stage I am very hesitant to consider a woman "stupid" so I tried to probe and ask if it was just having different mindsets or hobbies. But even the person who set this up seemed to readily admit the woman "isn't that smart." The woman was reportedly a nice person, so in my geeky attempt to come up with a positive example I compared her to Sailor Moon (who may be the anime poster woman for an airhead with a heart of gold). My pal was really struggling about this (he claimed at being unable to have meaningful discussions with her on most things), and basically wanted advice from me, as one of his oldest friends. I told him that it depends on what he is looking for; if he is looking for someone long term like a wife and a "gap in intelligence" was that fundamental a problem, then no, he shouldn't pursue. But if he isn't and she is a nice person, then it may be worth it to give things a try, since nice people who won't hurt others are rare. I also told him, as someone who turned 40 earlier, that regrets become more of a thing and that they're best to avoid.
This felt similar but different than his younger coworkers. I wondered what I would do in his shoes. This isn't someone with a negative personality or zealous political opposition; just someone "less intelligent." I keep using quotes because I consider that stuff relative and subjective and I really don't like using obviously negative terms about women. Women have been facing the "dumb bombshell" stereotype/social expectation since we fell out of the trees, so I am very sensitive about that. I try not to consider myself that much smarter than others, but I've been told I can come off as condescending and I don't suffer fools for long at work (at least before I moved to another department where I don't deal with callers). My problem is I have so much negative self-talk that if I did meet a woman who liked me but I sensed some genuine "intelligence gap," it would be super easy for my jerkbrain to go, "Oh, she is literally too dumb to realize how lame you are. It would violate your moral code to take advantage of her." I basically asked myself, "Would I date a 30-something year old Sailor Moon?" I felt that if I were in my friend's position I would pursue things, but partly due to not looking for anything long term so I am more flexible. Nice people are rare. And I suppose a healthier way of looking at it is IF I did meet someone in which there was an objective "intelligence gap" and it wasn't just having differing experiences or something, is that she could be looking for someone who doesn't treat her badly just because she's not a PhD and is willing to explain stuff or help her navigate when need be. That if anything it might make it "more justifiable" if it wasn't just a woman taking pity on me but she actually got something meaningful out of me, too. I kind of...struggle to accept the concept that I could deliver anything meaningful to a relationship beyond a warm body and a sense of humor. That is where the angst about performance comes from, I think from others too. The idea of, "well, at least I'd better satisfy her sexually," since being inexperienced means it is tough accepting the concept of another person gaining meaningful emotional or intellectual satisfaction otherwise with me.
So TL:DR a recent social gathering made me rethink some of my long held beliefs. I may be less desperate to pursue a toxic relationship just for looks and to end my plight, but I would likely be willing to pursue someone even if we were different so long as she was genuinely a sweet person.
And no, the time was not right to ask my friend's friends to set me up. It was HIS birthday party. You don't upstage the birthday boy.
Datelessman- Posts : 479
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by Datelessman Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:34 pm
So as an update (not a virginity-freak-out post, I promise), over the last month or two I have stepped up my efforts at text role-playing within the Deviantart community who shares the fetish which I will never reveal. Prior examples cited above usually resulted from someone else contacting me at random across various platforms (even Facebook under my alter ego account). This time I am the one fishing for willing partners and making initial Private Message style introductions. I've only been on Deviantart for about 1.5 years yet I still feel I am only beginning to learn the norms and slang of the (mostly) younger people on it. Such as, learning what a "Prompt" means in context (i.e. an "ad" on someone's profile saying it is okay to send someone a message regarding this).
This seems like a self serving exercise in gratification, and sometimes it is. But I also feel I am learning (and practicing!) some valuable lessons in the greater context of dating, and in a format where it is "safer" than, say, trying out pick up lines at a bar or a club (environments where I have never thrived, and finally have reached acceptance within myself for never thriving in them).
The first thing doing this has drilled into my head is the rule of Communication. Supposedly it is key to good sex -- I say "supposedly" because sex is still within the realm of science fiction to me. But to any kind of text role play, it is essential. Many people will flat out state it in their "Prompts" that they want to "brainstorm" or "chat about our plans" beforehand. But even when they don't, I have never and would never do a text roleplay without it. In a way I have known this for a few years, ever since I stumbled onto my first sessions of this stuff, but it wasn't until now that I made this connection. The gap between discussing things like, say, plot, characters, likes, dislikes, etc. for a text roleplay and going over turn on's/turn off's before sex isn't very large. In the openly fetish community, it is even more mandatory, but it's likely that way in real life. I suppose the difference is I have enough experience within the fetish that I know all the terms, the slang, the details, but with actual sex I am lost. "Do you like to give or get head?" someone might ask. What the heck could I reply? "I dunno. Wanna try both?" It sounds non committal. But at least I know it is a key step that exists and that, at least for me, is something which is a near mandatory precursor to sex. Even if such a session in real life would be awkward and nerve wracking for me, it would be better than none at all; just diving in blind.
I've learned that it is a way to "feel out" a text role player before anything plot-wise starts, and I imagine that is also translatable. I learn what their style is, what they are comfortable with, and some "Hard No's." Yes, those exist in text role plays, too, and I feel getting used to going over those is good practice. I imagine, or would hope, communicating before sex (whether immediately before or, perhaps, the date before) in real life with more "standard" situations is similar. If dating is getting to know someone in general, then pre-coitus communication is kind of like a rehearsal, where you get stage directions and the like.
The second thing which I have discovered is some degree of Flexibility. I imagine every fetish is like this, where there is a "soft" or "moderate" level and then there is an "extreme kink" level. I won't go into further detail because I know this site is kink-friendly and I would rather someone not guess (even if you did, even in a PM, I would not admit it here). It might shock people to know (kidding) that much as in real life, I am in the middle or "moderate," which means a lot of the Communication is in order to gauge compatibility. On Deviantart at least, I have found many of those who offer "Prompts" are way, way, WAY more hardcore than I am, and into things which make me uncomfortable. When I first started doing this in earnest over the summer, I was a lot less discerning, and I found one text roleplay partner who was very receptive and interactive (i.e. someone who would reply in a chatroom many times over hours versus once or twice a day in a private message). I thought focusing on the things we both liked and ignoring some of her extremes was workable. But eventually she got bored and kind of challenged me to up the ante, and I did, writing something I was not comfortable with. In the end all that did was delay the inevitable, but I learned I'd compromised too far and I wouldn't do it again. On the other end of the spectrum, I also encountered a person whose "Hard No" was actually something I usually considered essential, but she was nice and imaginative enough that I was willing to plow thru anyway. But the lesson is that it is tough to find someone on the exact same wavelength, so it is a matter of how much someone is willing to flex to be compatible, at least for a session.
I imagine this more than applies to real sex. In text role plays I acknowledge different moods and tastes, or sometimes liking a challenge or something different. For real life interactions, I am far less confident, but I would have "Hard No's," such as anal sex (giving or receiving). I would be willing to try a lot of things, but one lesson I guess I can take to heart is that if something is REALLY making me uncomfortable or if I am iffy on it severely, then it usually is not worth doing. I just hope to tell the difference between, "this is something I am uncomfortable with" versus "I am so nervous I am about to pass out." On the positive side, I am learning that much like my comedy style, I work better when I am responsive -- working with what someone gives me versus dictating. I am better at ad libbing than straight "three men walk into a bar" style jokes. I often see it as a challenge to work with whatever a role player is throwing at me, and I hope that is a healthy mindset for real sex.
The third thing I learned is to get used to Impersonal Ghosting. Yes, ghosting happens in text role plays too -- in fact I'd argue it is the norm. People just fall off and stop replying, or suddenly reappear after a month or so. I've known this for a long time -- the young woman I took to a movie for my first ever date in high school essentially "ghosted" me while the modern Internet was still new -- but these sessions are drilling it into my head now. So many dudes take issue with this and DNL gets letters about it at least once or twice a month. And I specifically included the word "impersonal" because I am learning a lot of times it is not specifically about someone. As a case-in-point, one person I was text roleplaying with was very active for a week or so, and then dropped off. She would later post a message to her profile that she had taken on some five dozen role play's and got overwhelmed, so she was cutting it all off. Her drop off had zero to do with me specifically, and assuming that I and I alone was "the straw that broke the camel's back" would be a drastic leap and a bit egotistical. Ghosting happens all the time in real dating and I imagine a lot of it happens for the same reasons -- not always directly personal. Sometimes, of course, it IS personal, and ghosting is just the easiest, least confrontational way to ditch someone who isn't clicking for them. I mean, I COULD torment myself with the idea that all the role players who dropped off just decided they hated me, but that's an assumption without direct evidence, and ultimately a waste of time. It isn't always about safety (though for women that can't be dismissed), but can also be about just not wanting to have an awkward conversation with a relative stranger. Life is full of unavoidable awkward conversations (i.e. a work "performance review").
If there is one thing which I regretted once I hit 40, almost more so than my virginity, it was taking all of my rejections or never-were's in my youth so darn personally. Not only did I take every rejection personally in high school and college, I took every "she doesn't know I exist" non-factors personally. How could I take it personally when she didn't even know me as a person? I had a lot of "woe is me" moments because I wasn't charming and/or handsome enough to just attract people or entice someone to give clear signals like my friends experienced, but ultimately that did me no good. It isn't so much that I think my love life would have been any better (I remain convinced I suffered from bad luck and few opportunities, combined with bigger concerns like family matters), but it would have spared me a lot of emotional baggage I didn't need. So getting a crash course in a safe venue that ghosting just happens and to treat it like water off a duck's back isn't a bad thing.
Fourth thing is Imagination. More than anything, it goes a long way.
Lastly is being Discerning. Much like with real dating, if I just did a "cold approach," i.e. mass spams of anyone's account remotely linked to the fetish without any indication they were "open," it would only waste time and piss off a lot of people. The basic is to find people who are looking; DNL covers this with his "go where your tribe is" kind of mantra. In real life my tribe are comic/anime geeks and that is a community OVERFLOWING with thirsty dudes, so finding it isn't so much the issue; it would be remaining within one long enough that I am not seen as yet another hostile stranger and more of a peer where things can grow organically. And, of course, to seek out venues of people who are looking, such as online dating or single's mixers, versus cold approaching people outside as some schmucks do.
I do wonder if separating this part of my sexuality and burying it even more than my virginity from personal, honest discussion is a good thing. But so far I think I am getting a crash course in some useful things which will only help when, or if, I take further steps.
This seems like a self serving exercise in gratification, and sometimes it is. But I also feel I am learning (and practicing!) some valuable lessons in the greater context of dating, and in a format where it is "safer" than, say, trying out pick up lines at a bar or a club (environments where I have never thrived, and finally have reached acceptance within myself for never thriving in them).
The first thing doing this has drilled into my head is the rule of Communication. Supposedly it is key to good sex -- I say "supposedly" because sex is still within the realm of science fiction to me. But to any kind of text role play, it is essential. Many people will flat out state it in their "Prompts" that they want to "brainstorm" or "chat about our plans" beforehand. But even when they don't, I have never and would never do a text roleplay without it. In a way I have known this for a few years, ever since I stumbled onto my first sessions of this stuff, but it wasn't until now that I made this connection. The gap between discussing things like, say, plot, characters, likes, dislikes, etc. for a text roleplay and going over turn on's/turn off's before sex isn't very large. In the openly fetish community, it is even more mandatory, but it's likely that way in real life. I suppose the difference is I have enough experience within the fetish that I know all the terms, the slang, the details, but with actual sex I am lost. "Do you like to give or get head?" someone might ask. What the heck could I reply? "I dunno. Wanna try both?" It sounds non committal. But at least I know it is a key step that exists and that, at least for me, is something which is a near mandatory precursor to sex. Even if such a session in real life would be awkward and nerve wracking for me, it would be better than none at all; just diving in blind.
I've learned that it is a way to "feel out" a text role player before anything plot-wise starts, and I imagine that is also translatable. I learn what their style is, what they are comfortable with, and some "Hard No's." Yes, those exist in text role plays, too, and I feel getting used to going over those is good practice. I imagine, or would hope, communicating before sex (whether immediately before or, perhaps, the date before) in real life with more "standard" situations is similar. If dating is getting to know someone in general, then pre-coitus communication is kind of like a rehearsal, where you get stage directions and the like.
The second thing which I have discovered is some degree of Flexibility. I imagine every fetish is like this, where there is a "soft" or "moderate" level and then there is an "extreme kink" level. I won't go into further detail because I know this site is kink-friendly and I would rather someone not guess (even if you did, even in a PM, I would not admit it here). It might shock people to know (kidding) that much as in real life, I am in the middle or "moderate," which means a lot of the Communication is in order to gauge compatibility. On Deviantart at least, I have found many of those who offer "Prompts" are way, way, WAY more hardcore than I am, and into things which make me uncomfortable. When I first started doing this in earnest over the summer, I was a lot less discerning, and I found one text roleplay partner who was very receptive and interactive (i.e. someone who would reply in a chatroom many times over hours versus once or twice a day in a private message). I thought focusing on the things we both liked and ignoring some of her extremes was workable. But eventually she got bored and kind of challenged me to up the ante, and I did, writing something I was not comfortable with. In the end all that did was delay the inevitable, but I learned I'd compromised too far and I wouldn't do it again. On the other end of the spectrum, I also encountered a person whose "Hard No" was actually something I usually considered essential, but she was nice and imaginative enough that I was willing to plow thru anyway. But the lesson is that it is tough to find someone on the exact same wavelength, so it is a matter of how much someone is willing to flex to be compatible, at least for a session.
I imagine this more than applies to real sex. In text role plays I acknowledge different moods and tastes, or sometimes liking a challenge or something different. For real life interactions, I am far less confident, but I would have "Hard No's," such as anal sex (giving or receiving). I would be willing to try a lot of things, but one lesson I guess I can take to heart is that if something is REALLY making me uncomfortable or if I am iffy on it severely, then it usually is not worth doing. I just hope to tell the difference between, "this is something I am uncomfortable with" versus "I am so nervous I am about to pass out." On the positive side, I am learning that much like my comedy style, I work better when I am responsive -- working with what someone gives me versus dictating. I am better at ad libbing than straight "three men walk into a bar" style jokes. I often see it as a challenge to work with whatever a role player is throwing at me, and I hope that is a healthy mindset for real sex.
The third thing I learned is to get used to Impersonal Ghosting. Yes, ghosting happens in text role plays too -- in fact I'd argue it is the norm. People just fall off and stop replying, or suddenly reappear after a month or so. I've known this for a long time -- the young woman I took to a movie for my first ever date in high school essentially "ghosted" me while the modern Internet was still new -- but these sessions are drilling it into my head now. So many dudes take issue with this and DNL gets letters about it at least once or twice a month. And I specifically included the word "impersonal" because I am learning a lot of times it is not specifically about someone. As a case-in-point, one person I was text roleplaying with was very active for a week or so, and then dropped off. She would later post a message to her profile that she had taken on some five dozen role play's and got overwhelmed, so she was cutting it all off. Her drop off had zero to do with me specifically, and assuming that I and I alone was "the straw that broke the camel's back" would be a drastic leap and a bit egotistical. Ghosting happens all the time in real dating and I imagine a lot of it happens for the same reasons -- not always directly personal. Sometimes, of course, it IS personal, and ghosting is just the easiest, least confrontational way to ditch someone who isn't clicking for them. I mean, I COULD torment myself with the idea that all the role players who dropped off just decided they hated me, but that's an assumption without direct evidence, and ultimately a waste of time. It isn't always about safety (though for women that can't be dismissed), but can also be about just not wanting to have an awkward conversation with a relative stranger. Life is full of unavoidable awkward conversations (i.e. a work "performance review").
If there is one thing which I regretted once I hit 40, almost more so than my virginity, it was taking all of my rejections or never-were's in my youth so darn personally. Not only did I take every rejection personally in high school and college, I took every "she doesn't know I exist" non-factors personally. How could I take it personally when she didn't even know me as a person? I had a lot of "woe is me" moments because I wasn't charming and/or handsome enough to just attract people or entice someone to give clear signals like my friends experienced, but ultimately that did me no good. It isn't so much that I think my love life would have been any better (I remain convinced I suffered from bad luck and few opportunities, combined with bigger concerns like family matters), but it would have spared me a lot of emotional baggage I didn't need. So getting a crash course in a safe venue that ghosting just happens and to treat it like water off a duck's back isn't a bad thing.
Fourth thing is Imagination. More than anything, it goes a long way.
Lastly is being Discerning. Much like with real dating, if I just did a "cold approach," i.e. mass spams of anyone's account remotely linked to the fetish without any indication they were "open," it would only waste time and piss off a lot of people. The basic is to find people who are looking; DNL covers this with his "go where your tribe is" kind of mantra. In real life my tribe are comic/anime geeks and that is a community OVERFLOWING with thirsty dudes, so finding it isn't so much the issue; it would be remaining within one long enough that I am not seen as yet another hostile stranger and more of a peer where things can grow organically. And, of course, to seek out venues of people who are looking, such as online dating or single's mixers, versus cold approaching people outside as some schmucks do.
I do wonder if separating this part of my sexuality and burying it even more than my virginity from personal, honest discussion is a good thing. But so far I think I am getting a crash course in some useful things which will only help when, or if, I take further steps.
Datelessman- Posts : 479
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Re: My Current Life as a 40 Year Old Virgin (WARNING: LONG)
by inbloomer Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:26 pm
I think you're doing the right thing in actively seeking out like minds, in the places they congregate, and all communication practice is helpful. As you note, the risk seems to be that you might get really good at communicating but only within a specific, anonymous environment.
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