Re: The fear of "Too Late"

[Enail]

I don't totally trust your judgement on that right now, but if you're finding it useful to discuss things now, then it doesn't really matter what I think, so carry on!

[Werel]

There's nothing I have to offer that the world can't find somewhere else

There's you. I know you don't think that's something valuable, but you're wrong about that.

Yeah. Agreed. (Maybe a handful of people aren't "the world," but nobody's valuable to the whole world.)

At some point this is going to go away. And then the calculation becomes basically sacrificing most comfort and the tiny bits of happiness to... survive for no reason. There's like 7000 different problems I have to solve to get that point, and the reward for that is lower quality of life, no free time, infinitely more mental stress, and forced endless hours in a world I consider hostile to me being in it.

Once the current setup goes away, you won't have any comfort to sacrifice, right? It'll just be about attaining new comfort from a starting point of zero. The idea behind thinking about this stuff now is to make that eventual transition as easy as possible. (Or: move to Hawaii, be homeless here, it's a reasonably good gig if you don't mind sunshine )

I went for a walk to the convenience store in a chilled-wind-whipping rainstorm today because it feels nice coming inside out of the rain and the experience was short.

There's an effect like this with work, actually. Playing video games after a mediocre day of work > playing video games all day, because hedonic treadmill = we primarily register pleasure in contrast to displeasure. So, uh, super-Pollyanna mode engage!, but doing stuff you don't enjoy that much can produce heightened enjoyment levels of stuff you do enjoy.

There's no winning. There's just choosing which way to lose and what the timetable for losing is gonna look like

For all of us, winning = a maximal degree of choice over when and how to lose. The point of all this preparing is to secure as much choice for yourself as possible.

[bomaye]

Once the current setup goes away, you won't have any comfort to sacrifice, right? It'll just be about attaining new comfort from a starting point of zero. The idea behind thinking about this stuff now is to make that eventual transition as easy as possible.

I kind of doubt that anything I do in that situation would ever get me remotely close to whatever comforts I have right now, it kind of seems like killing yourself scrambling one way just so you can die slowly another.

There's an effect like this with work, actually. Playing video games after a mediocre day of work > playing video games all day, because hedonic treadmill = we primarily register pleasure in contrast to displeasure. So, uh, super-Pollyanna mode engage!, but doing stuff you don't enjoy that much can produce heightened enjoyment levels of stuff you do enjoy.

Yeah, I do recognize it to a degree, but you can also end up so poor that you're basically just working to afford to eat and be able to sleep with a roof over your head most of the time. The amount of doing things you don't like way way way way way outweighs the amount of doing things you enjoy :p

For all of us, winning = a maximal degree of choice over when and how to lose. The point of all this preparing is to secure as much choice for yourself as possible.

Choice

[Werel]

I kind of doubt that anything I do in that situation would ever get me remotely close to whatever comforts I have right now, it kind of seems like killing yourself scrambling one way just so you can die slowly another.

Yeah, attaining "zero responsibilities, all needs met" levels of comfort after leaving the nest is pretty unlikely. It might help to try and see having maintained it for 29+ years as an astonishing feat of luck, not a baseline. Attaining "got more money to buy more and better comforts and distractions for my off-hours while feeling mostly neutral about my work hours" is pretty damn feasible, though; isn't that a preferable outcome to "homeless"? And aren't there currently 8 hours each day that you feel mostly neutral about, rather than every day being nonstop recreational joy? What do you really face losing here?

Choices

The lol is merited in many cases, but not all

But I'm reminded of all the positive psychology research that says individuals with an internally-oriented locus of control (i.e. people who believe choices are a real thing) are happier. As somebody asked me recently: "would you rather be right or be happy?"

[bomaye]

Yeah, attaining "zero responsibilities, all needs met" levels of comfort after leaving the nest is pretty unlikely. It might help to try and see having maintained it for 29+ years as an astonishing feat of luck, not a baseline. Attaining "got more money to buy more and better comforts and distractions for my off-hours while feeling mostly neutral about my work hours" is pretty damn feasible, though; isn't that a preferable outcome to "homeless"?

I refuse to be homeless, so it's more asking "would you rather not exist, or would you rather exist in an endless, unhappy rat-race that you're never going to win or even place well in." I wouldn't know the difference with the former, so the latter is not always the top answer.

And aren't there currently 8 hours each day that you feel mostly neutral about, rather than every day being nonstop recreational joy? What do you really face losing here?

No, there aren't 8 hours a day I feel neutral about. There's always something else to do, some idea to explore or research, something new on the internet to pique interest. There isn't enough hours in the day to fit in everything I'm interested in. I'd probably have to entirely give up three or four interests forever if I got a job, because there'd be no time for it. It would be a time-quality downgrade in every possible way.

But I'm reminded of all the positive psychology research that says individuals with an internally-oriented locus of control (i.e. people who believe choices are a real thing) are happier. As somebody asked me recently: "would you rather be right or be happy?"

I'd rather be right, because happy isn't a thing that happens to me anyways.

Also, did the study control for circumstances? I.E. if someone generally has their choices work out for them, of course they're going to be happier, random chance works in their favour.

[Enail]

No, there aren't 8 hours a day I feel neutral about. There's always something else to do, some idea to explore or research, something new on the internet to pique interest. There isn't enough hours in the day to fit in everything I'm interested in. I'd probably have to entirely give up three or four interests forever if I got a job, because there'd be no time for it. It would be a time-quality downgrade in every possible way.

If it helps any, I really value my time and was worried that working would deprive me of that, but now having gone back and forth between having tons of free time and not much a few times, it always takes a few weeks, and then time sort of adjusts itself and there's barely any difference between them in amount of time I spend on things I like or in general feel of "enough/not enough time" - right now, not working, I have just as hard a time packing in the things I want to do than I did when I was working full-time and resent extra demands on my time just as much.  Somehow I just sort of unconsciously spread out how I do things when I've got time or become more efficient when I don't; you might find that happens for you too.

EDIT:Wow I used the word "time" a lot there.

[bomaye]

Yeah, that's entirely possible. I didn't feel too different when I was doing stuff a few hours a day for a neighbour

[Enail]

It's really bizarre how that works, isn't it?

[bomaye]

It's probably more of that "enjoying free time more when there's something shitty to weigh it against." You shed the excess and unimportant and get down to it ASAP, whereas right now I do kind of just float a bit more between things

[Enail]

Even if it's not shitty stuff I'm weighing it against, though (like say in times when I was really enthusiastic about all my classes), it still has that effect. I think being in the habit of doing lots of things does it, or being in the mindset of having however much time you want makes it hard to fit things into it.

[bomaye]

Probably less time for detail too. Like the difference between reading a headline and reading an article

I can't even watch sports live anymore because I feel the commercials eating away at my time, and that's without any responsibilities going on :p

[sky]

Wait, they have a ton of stuff available to people just coming out of high school, who are basically still kids, and they don't tell them how to do any of it or that they even have access to it?

They tell 'em. Orientations, career counselors, advisors, etc. are in charge of that, with varying success rates. Lots of kids are just kids and don't figure it out. But you have the advantage of not being 18, not expecting to be hand-held, and being aware that inaction = falling through the cracks.

If it makes the prospect of maybe attending college any less daunting:
I worked at my university's help desk for five years while I was a student, and in my experience the following things are true.

Everything comes with an instruction manual. How to apply for financial aid, how to register for classes, how to find and apply for jobs on campus, how to ask for extra help with any class or subject, how to join clubs, serve in the student government, etc. The trick is just knowing to look for the instructions because they aren't always in what you would think is the most logical place. The school's website is usually a good resource, and whichever building on campus has all of the main administrative offices in it. They usually have lots of flyers explaining how to do all the things people always ask them about.

They also let all sorts of idiots into college. Since you aren't an idiot, you won't stand out as having no idea what you're doing, even if that's how you feel. There will be lots of people there who don't know what they're doing and how the system works, and all the offices are used to people asking questions about how to do things. If you can think of just one logical place that the answer to your question or problem might be written down and look there before you give up and assume it's impossible to solve, you are already more capable than hundreds of students, and even some of the faculty. We frequently had parents call in with questions on behalf of their students who weren't even able to ask for help all by themselves.

[kath]

Yeah, navigating systems isn't about being able to charm people or get people to like you. It's all about figuring what someone wants you to do to get them to do something else, and then doing it. That list of examples Enail gave is exactly what I'm thinking of, with the addition of "and follow up after" (so, you find out that someone forgot to actually submit your application to transfer to the program you actually want to be in which is preventing you form registering for all of your courses, and can get them to resubmit it. This happened to me. I was Most Displeased.). Figuring out how to do your taxes is a great example. They do give you the instructions right there on the tax form. But it's actually pretty hard to read all of the instructions and follow them slowly and accurately, and then follow up to make sure you get your rebate / pay your taxes owed on time.

Put me in a situation where I have to deal with other human beings to get anything accomplished, I pretty much start hating the entire human race :p

Well, you're going to have to figure this one out, because being a human necessarily normally involves a fair amount of dealing with other humans. And I'm not someone who really likes dealing with humans within systems, where I also get frustrated with them ("THEY'RE MAKING ME FOLLOW THE RULES, WHY ISN'T EVERYONE FOLLOWING THEM?!" is a source of rage I am pretty given to). And I generally like humans.

Working in tourism is a definite no, I'm not a people-person. Also I think most of the "tourist" type stuff around here is outdoorsy like canoeing or things like that.

Tourism is a big industry, there are lots of jobs that will pay you money that comes from tourists without you dealing with the tourists yourself. They range from cooking to janitorial work to marketing and programming and accounting. But it makes it easier to find those jobs if you're paying attention to what types of companies are likely to be doing well, and when they are likely to need extra people. For you, they probably need more hands on deck (in many capacities) during the summer. I was thinking you might have a lot of skiing, but maybe not?

It's day-to-day having to figure out what this next fool getting up in your face is going to do and how to apparently trick other human beings into allowing you to have the things you want that's the really hard stuff

A lot of this advice is about learning how to do that. Except it's mostly not tricking them, it's mostly being a part of the economy and social systems we've set up as a society. You kinda gotta be a joiner to make life work. Or independently wealthy, or a criminal, I guess.

I shut down because I don't want to do it and there's no desperate need to do it at the moment.

Yes, there is a desperate need to do it, you need to do these things to get out of your current situation.

I'm not sure that advice from us can help you in finding motivation to do anything to change your situation. I mean maybe, but most of our advice is going to involve ... doing things. And there could totally be a hack that once you know it, you can make yourself do all the things (maybe it's as simple as pretending you actually like people, or making it into a game), but you are going to have to try different things that might work before you can find the hack that does make you feel better.

One to start with I guess is power posing: https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en

It's also the things at the end of those pathways (taking a bus to have to get to work or search for a job or something like that, going to school to get a job meaning having to be around and have to deal with a ton of people) that lead to the shut-down. It takes a bit to absorb and get comfortable with the environment around me, other human beings in that environment makes things much worse

They do make it harder. That's why going in small doses is probably going to be at least somewhat helpful for you. If you get used to having other human beings in your environment, even if you find them irritating and you get used to being irritated, that will make it more bearable once you get on campus, and more bearable when it's at school, and then more bearable when it's at work. Just going out into your town and walking around and sitting in a cafe or whatever and getting used to the low-level, sustained discomfort or having people around could actually be a useful thing for you to do.

Since you've ruled out purely online work a few times (various types of which has been suggested to you), there is no job you are going to find that doesn't involve dealing with some people. You can make it so you are dealing with a few people who are mostly known quantities if you don't get a customer service job, but even if you pretty much just deal with your immediate coworkers, they are still going to be irritating people, and you are going to need to deal with them effectively.

That's why it's important to do stuff even if it doesn't seem absolutely necessary to do right now. It actually IS necessary to do these things RIGHT NOW, because they are stopping you from doing anything else.

[reboot]

Bomeye, if you do not actually want to change anything, you do not have to. I think you said earlier that your parents are not kicking you out of the house, so there is no pressure to change except what you are putting on yourself. My dad has a cousin who was in your shoes and he just lived at home until his parents died when he was in his 60s. Because he was there as caretaker, my great aunt was able to stay in her house, so it is not like he was "useless" or anything. By the time she died he learned how to deal with all the systems, including Medicare, a hideously baffling system. He is getting by now on social security and some money from the sale of the house. I know there is a lot of societal pressure to do something different, but you do not have to succumb to it. You just need to build up some armor against people that are going to judge you for it like my dad and the other cousins judged the cousin in the story.

[bomaye]

You kinda gotta be a joiner to make life work. Or independently wealthy, or a criminal, I guess.

Kinda hard to be a joiner when the general message from the world has always been "we don't want you joining us."

I'm not sure that advice from us can help you in finding motivation to do anything to change your situation. I mean maybe, but most of our advice is going to involve ... doing things. And there could totally be a hack that once you know it, you can make yourself do all the things (maybe it's as simple as pretending you actually like people, or making it into a game), but you are going to have to try different things that might work before you can find the hack that does make you feel better.

One to start with I guess is power posing: https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en

I've tried hacks before, they're about as useful as placebos are. I used to slouch when I walked, I changed it to a straight, confident walk, it didn't alter anything, as a personal example.

Or like the one "just smiling can make you happier and improve your mood". It kind of just ends up like this

Since you've ruled out purely online work a few times (various types of which has been suggested to you),

Because you can't make a living off of that, otherwise everyone would be doing it :p

That's why it's important to do stuff even if it doesn't seem absolutely necessary to do right now. It actually IS necessary to do these things RIGHT NOW, because they are stopping you from doing anything else.

Even when I was doing things, I was being stopped from doing anything else, either by social exclusion, which is not going to go away now, or by parental mandate. I was either not good enough, not desirable enough, or not free enough to even try to get the things I wanted.

It gets kind of frustrating talking about these things because no one else seems to understand that there are actually people in this world who are 100% disposable. It's like being cajoled into getting in life at the movie theater when you're deaf and blind, "if you just look and listen hard enough, you'll enjoy the movie!"

There's also other gender-based frustrations that I'm not totally certain I'm allowed to get into, so I'll kind of just say "those exist too."

[reboot]

I definitely get the concept of people being disposable. My dad, uncles, and older cousins were disposed of when copper prices tanked in the 1980s. Now, with copper and gold mining booming (but looking like a bust is coming), some are working in the mines, but most everyone else is low-level service (e.g. call center, big box retail, food service, janitorial/housekeeping) or, as the British call it, NEET (not in education, employment or training). I also know the gender component you are talking about, but I will not give my opinion on it because it will piss you off

EDIT: Only reason I am different is because I am ugly and had a lot of pressure to get an education since I was not going to be able to find someone to support me (my family is old, old school). It was not some great intellectual passion or talent that drove me to school. It was wanting to get away from home.

[Enail]

Okay, so what are you actually looking to get out of this thread at this point? We can try and give you suggestions how to get around obstacles, we can give you advice on things that can help you avoid being disposable, we could probably think up some advice on how to manage if you decide not to try and change your situation, we can cheerlead for you.

We can't make it easier for you, we can't make you want to do things, we can't make you not feel like it's hopeless, most of us are probably not ever going to agree with you that it's 100% hopeless. So, what do you want out of this thread now?

(And modly note: yeah, you're almost certainly not allowed to get into the gender-based stuff, though depending on the specifics there is some chance, so PM one of us if you want to check for sure)

[bomaye]

I also know the gender component you are talking about, but I will not give my opinion on it because it will piss you off

What you said in the edit? I don't really get super-mad about these things as much as just lamenting a certain thing or two because of things I don't want to say because of personal mod restrictions.

Okay, so what are you actually looking to get out of this thread at this point? We can try and give you suggestions how to get around obstacles, we can give you advice on things that can help you avoid being disposable, we could probably think up some advice on how to manage if you decide not to try and change your situation, we can cheerlead for you.

We can't make it easier for you, we can't make you want to do things, we can't make you not feel like it's hopeless, most of us are probably not ever going to agree with you that it's 100% hopeless. So, what do you want out of this thread now?

I dunno. Someone to prove me wrong somehow or to make it make sense that doesn't rely on regular normal-people platitudes that normal people tell each other because they don't know what else to say or don't want to tell a discouraging truth.

I mean, when you put things like that, this is a stupidly good support system which I don't otherwise deserve, but there's nothing to support. The other message has been louder, for longer and reinforced by the masses.

[Enail]

I dunno. Someone to prove me wrong somehow or to make it make sense that doesn't rely on regular normal-people platitudes that normal people tell each other because they don't know what else to say or don't want to tell a discouraging truth.

I don't think we really can prove you wrong, because you reject things that don't fit with what feels true, and because a lot it's the kind of stuff that can only be proven wrong by you doing those things and having them work out, right?

We can try different ways of saying things to see if any of them make sense - tbh, sometimes the things that do land up resonating with you sound just as much like platitudes to me as any of the other things - but ultimately, either you can believe there's enough chance of it being worth it to try to get it to make sense and do these things, or you can't. We can try to show you there's a path you can travel, and good places it might lead, but you're the one who decides if you're going to take those steps and find out if we're right.

I mean, when you put things like that, this is a stupidly good support system which I don't otherwise deserve, but there's nothing to support. The other message has been louder, for longer and reinforced by the masses.

A message can be loud and long and reinforced, and still be a crappy, untrue message - and now you know there's at least one alternate message out there.

[bomaye]

I don't think we really can prove you wrong, because you reject things that don't fit with what feels true, and because a lot it's the kind of stuff that can only be proven wrong by you doing those things and having them work out, right?

That's kind of it. If I do things, and they don't work out, then I'm proven right, and I'm way more likely to be proven right than wrong

Even putting out resumes and not getting calls back, which is statistically more likely anyways, proves the rightness.

We can try different ways of saying things to see if any of them make sense - tbh, sometimes the things that do land up resonating with you sound just as much like platitudes to me as any of the other things   - but ultimately, either you can believe there's enough chance of it being worth it to try to get it to make sense and do these things, or you can't. We can try to show you there's a path you can travel, and good places it might lead, but you're the one who decides if you're going to take those steps and find out if we're right.

I don't know how to believe it when I don't otherwise feel it. Like the thing I bring up is the delusion thing, you can keep telling yourself something but if the world doesn't reflect it back at you, you're not that thing. And if personal experience means anything, I'm definitely not that thing.

A message can be loud and long and reinforced, and still be a crappy, untrue message - and now you know there's at least one alternate message out there.

A tiny whisper next to a crowd using bullhorns to yell as loud as they can. And that crowd is more likely to control your standing in life or where you can possibly get than the whisper can.

[Werel]

I don't think we really can prove you wrong, because you reject things that don't fit with what feels true, and because a lot it's the kind of stuff that can only be proven wrong by you doing those things and having them work out, right?

This. And proving somebody "wrong" through dueling lived experience is tough. "I did X and it turned out great. You did the same X and it ended up badly. ONE OF US IS OBJECTIVELY RIGHT"

Even putting out resumes and not getting calls back, which is statistically more likely anyways, proves the rightness.

Discouraging Truth: your evaluation/confirmation system is all fucked up and you know it.

The good news is that you're really good at building strong internal narratives. If you could tweak the content of the narrative to be a little more in your favor, and believe it as doggedly as you believe the current one, you could be a juggernaut.

Like the thing I bring up is the delusion thing, you can keep telling yourself something but if the world doesn't reflect it back at you, you're not that thing.

There are things which the world reflects at you which you don't believe; it's not like you put full faith in all external reflections, just the negative ones. Cherry-picking like that will lead to a bulletproof perception that you suck and things suck and you're usually right; it's a good way to be right, but a shit way to be happy.

Btw,

No, there aren't 8 hours a day I feel neutral about. There's always something else to do, some idea to explore or research, something new on the internet to pique interest

I'd rather be right, because happy isn't a thing that happens to me anyways

Proved you wrong, you're happy, you're describing happiness, that is the happiness of the life of the mind, I win, you're wrong

(Jk with semantics police, but that really does sound like you're describing a relatively happy life. That can be scary to confront because it means "happiness" isn't this soaring, frothing, unfamiliar thing that only other people get, but instead something you do have and that clashes with self-perception as an unhappy person?)

A tiny whisper next to a crowd using bullhorns to yell as loud as they can. And that crowd is more likely to control your standing in life or where you can possibly get than the whisper can.

Do you have a defiant streak you can put into play here? Is there a scowling middle finger somewhere inside you? The bullhorns are the thing to use it on, especially when you're not trying to get anything/anywhere they control.

[bomaye]

Discouraging Truth: your evaluation/confirmation system is all fucked up and you know it.

The good news is that you're really good at building strong internal narratives. If you could tweak the content of the narrative to be a little more in your favor, and believe it as doggedly as you believe the current one, you could be a juggernaut.

This narrative was built naturally, I'm not totally sure how to build or tweak a new one that overwrites the other one

There are things which the world reflects at you which you don't believe; it's not like you put full faith in all external reflections, just the negative ones. Cherry-picking like that will lead to a bulletproof perception that you suck and things suck and you're usually right; it's a good way to be right, but a shit way to be happy.

"I'm tall, yay."

"I can retain information easily enough so that I never really had problems in high school, woohoo."

"I can type quickly and coherently."

Btw,

No, there aren't 8 hours a day I feel neutral about. There's always something else to do, some idea to explore or research, something new on the internet to pique interest

I'd rather be right, because happy isn't a thing that happens to me anyways

Proved you wrong, you're happy, you're describing happiness, that is the happiness of the life of the mind, I win, you're wrong

(Jk with semantics police, but that really does sound like you're describing a relatively happy life. That can be scary to confront because it means "happiness" isn't this soaring, frothing, unfamiliar thing that only other people get, but instead something you do have and that clashes with self-perception as an unhappy person?)

Dammit

(It's not as much a happy life as a distracting one, I guess. I binge on things, including info things, because I get curious about them because there's nothing better going on. It's lonely, it's empty, it's not terribly fulfilling, it does nothing for status or anything that can tangibly improve life, and it doesn't improve mood as much as just bury it for awhile.)

Do you have a defiant streak you can put into play here? Is there a scowling middle finger somewhere inside you? The bullhorns are the thing to use it on, especially when you're not trying to get anything/anywhere they control.

That kind of defiant streak gets you banned from message boards or mocked by people who don't want to hear it :p

[reboot]

Bomeye, you could just tap that defiant streak and not change anything you do not want to change. It sounds like you are actually OK where you are. You do not want to go to school or work. I get this sense you are talking about doing these things because you think you ought to and you feel judged for not doing them. Maybe tap that defiance and be all, "Eh, fuck you. I am doing what I want to do"?

[bomaye]

It's both. There's no safety in the future once in this runs out, and the longer I put it off the less safety and opportunity there's going to be (could already be true), but I also don't know how to force myself into going out into the world when being single, poor, lonely and probably precariously employed is going to be the outcome.

[reboot]

In my opinion, perhaps because I grew up poor, focusing on things that will get you a nest egg when you are in the relatively sweet spot of not having to earn money to support yourself would be a good place to start. Right now you can do short term, piece work, and do not have to worry about being precariously employed because you do not need to work to survive. You could even go day labor or seasonal work.

I think you said you were in a touristy place. Are there any hotels that are big enough to have a night shift cleaning crew?

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