Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:53 pm

caliseivy wrote:
Gentleman Johnny wrote:
That's the part that bothers me. Even if vaccines did cause autism (they don't), not vaccinating your kids sends the message that you prefer a dead child to an autistic one.
That does seem to be the unstated message underlying some of the arguments against vaccinating (not all, but some), and it's a pretty disturbing one.

I was reading an article recently that was talking about this, but was mainly emphasizing the correlated point that all the time and money spent on proving MMR shots don't cause autism takes away from research into the real causes of autism, too.

You know, I was thinking, one thing that might get anti-vaxxers to change their tune is if they started getting sued for medical costs by the people who either are vaccinated or can't be due to age/health and end up getting measles.

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:33 pm

On the front of what will convince anti-vaxxers to get their kids vaccinated, apparently public pressure is working on some of them.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/02/04/383796532/pediatricians-pressured-to-drop-parents-who-wont-vaccinate

Sears says some of his other patients are now rethinking their anti-vaccine stance out of fear that their children will be socially isolated — even kicked out of school.

"They don't want [their child] to be singled out as the only unvaccinated kid," Sears says. "Because if measles does hit a particular school, anyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated is asked to stay home for three weeks."

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Caffeinated on Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:46 pm

Wondering wrote:On the front of what will convince anti-vaxxers to get their kids vaccinated, apparently public pressure is working on some of them.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/02/04/383796532/pediatricians-pressured-to-drop-parents-who-wont-vaccinate

Sears says some of his other patients are now rethinking their anti-vaccine stance out of fear that their children will be socially isolated — even kicked out of school.

"They don't want [their child] to be singled out as the only unvaccinated kid," Sears says. "Because if measles does hit a particular school, anyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated is asked to stay home for three weeks."

That's some good news. Wow. Also, now I feel like I should call my pediatrician's office to find out if they allow anti-vaxxers or not, because god damn it when my new baby is born I'm not willing to potentially expose him to measles or whooping cough, especially at the doctor's office of all places.

I read an article in the paper the other day that said last year there was a larger outbreak of measles in the US that didn't get nearly the media attention. It was in an Amish community, who had sent (unvaccinated) missionaries out of the country and they came back with measles and it spread through the community. I want to say there were two or three hundred cases. But because they live in such an isolated way, it didn't move out into the larger population and so didn't get the attention the Disneyland outbreak is getting. It made me think that if people are going to not vaccinate their kids (for anything other than a legit medical reason), then they need to go live in some kind of anti-vaccine separatist community and stay the hell away from the rest of us.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:15 pm

Yeah, my pediatrician allows unvaccinated patients, and I don't like it. I originally chose them over the one doctor in town that doesn't allow anti-vaxxers because they had much much better hours and contact means and staffing help and would set up pre-birth interviews. But I'm seriously reconsidering now.

I heard about that Amish outbreak, too. And the thing is, there have been religious exemptions to the vaccine rules for ages. They're a relatively small number of people not getting vaccinated. And when it is an isolated community, like the Amish, the harm is limited to those who created it, essentially. But now there are so many people doing it for personal, non-religious reasons that it's become a major issue.

I read yesterday that California is looking to remove all but medical exemptions (including religious), and Washington is looking to remove "philosophical" exemptions and leave only medical and religious ones for kids going to school.

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Caffeinated on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:41 pm

If this thread and my facebook wall are anything to go by, then there's some good momentum building on this. (Of course, I could be existing in an echo chamber.) Saw this on fb just now: http://aattp.org/going-viral-pediatricians-anti-vaxxer-rant-is-the-smackdown-of-the-century/

I would love it if the whole country got rid of both philosophical and religious exemptions. Freedom of religion does not extend to the freedom to jeopardize public health and safety. (Of course, I tend to believe that all religions are equal parts bullshit, nonsense, and wishful thinking.)
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by eselle28 on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:49 pm

Wondering wrote:On the front of what will convince anti-vaxxers to get their kids vaccinated, apparently public pressure is working on some of them.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/02/04/383796532/pediatricians-pressured-to-drop-parents-who-wont-vaccinate


"Babies under a year old are vulnerable because they're too young to be immunized. So these parents' worries aren't unfounded, Ball says. Last year 20 infants in his waiting room, he says, were exposed to the highly contagious measles virus.

'It's horrible,' Ball says. And one of the worst things is, the incubation for measles is long — two to three weeks. Parents had to sit at home for 21 days waiting to see if their baby would come down with measles.'"

Yikes. Even if the child doesn't get daycare, 21 days without daycare is a huge burden for most families, especially ones where the parents have finished their maternity or paternity leave or never had any to begin with. I imagine those parents were liid.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Prajnaparamita on Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:04 pm

The Wisp wrote:
Wondering wrote:(Did everyone here have chicken pox? I honestly don't know when the vaccine was developed, but I know I'm 20 years older than some folks here.)

I'm 21 and had the vaccine, so I never had chicken pox. Apparently when I got it it was pretty new.
\

Yeah, I'm 21 and I didn't get the vaccine--it wasn't available yet where we lived I think. Plus I got it young, like around 3. As a result I have a couple (small, noticeable only to me) chicken pox scars on my face. I'm not sure if this would work as a PSA campaign, but how about: "Vaccinate your kids! Because the acne will give them enough scars on their face as is!"

That being said, as there is enough anger in my heart as is, I try to keep some compassion for anti-vaxxers and see where they're coming from as well. Throughout modern medicine mothers have been the scapegoat for many of the problems with their children--"Autistic? Schizophrenic? Its because you were a fridge mom and didn't love and devote yourself to them as you should have." If there's behavioral problems with a child, its often insinuated that the mother is somehow at fault. (And have you noticed that these anti-vax activists are overwhelmingly mothers--I never seem to hear the father's perspective on this.) And there is so much contradictory information out there for mothers, new nutritional supplements that you absolutely must take or else damn your child to horrible birth defects, retardation, autism, ect, and new and constantly changing lists of foods that you absolutely have to avoid at all costs or risk those things. Most of that is tosh, but given our cognitive biases (like how so many fear flying, while cars are actually so, so, so much more deadly) its hard for some to tell what's real, and what's not. I mean, your child's future is at stake! You absolutely can't make the wrong choice and be the one who messes them up forever!

Which is why I absolutely think we need to band together to make it clear that the truth is that vaccines save lives, protect your child, and are your civic duty. Perhaps creating a network of people telling positive stories about why they chose to vaccinate their kids and how thankful they are, to counteract the fear with positivity.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by skullbearer on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:19 am

My parents bought into the whole 'MMR causes autism bullshit' so I was never vaccinated. Still autistic though LOL.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by waxingjaney on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:05 pm

Yeah, you might want to do something about that.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Caffeinated on Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:29 pm

I really hope the extreme ablism in the whole conversation gets talked about more. Maybe it will. Today on my FB feed was this:

http://bellejar.ca/2015/02/05/vaccines-dont-cause-autism-but-thats-not-the-point-stop-being-ableist/

From the post:
Instead of reassuring parents that vaccines don’t cause autism (which, again: factually true), why don’t we start refuting anti-vaccination advocates with the fact that autism isn’t a catastrophe. Why not start sending them links to blogs and articles written by people who actually have autism. Why not say something like, “it’s been proven that there’s no link between vaccines and autism, but I think it would be great for you to re-evaluate why you think so negatively of autism.”
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by skullbearer on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:00 am

Oh I got vaccinated the moment I realised I wasn't, no fear.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Archetype694 on Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:25 am

Wondering wrote:F-ing anti-vaxxers.

Amen brother.

Freaking hell even if there was a credible link to autism to vaccines by this measure those who choose not to vaccinate are essentially acting as if polio, becoming a cripple, whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, in other words scourges that are proven killers are not that big of a deal.

I tend to favor personal liberty over the state or federal powers but damn you do not have the right to subject the populace and those who cannot vaccinate due to immunity issues to danger to their ignorance and selfishness. That we have for the most part eradicated these diseases only to have a resurgence of such is damn near a crime against humanity in my mind.

All my rage.

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:29 am

I'm actually seeing less about autism and the MMR vaccine these days and more about how the MMR vaccine causes horrible complications. The sort that are possible from the vaccine but are very rare. Oh, and how it's caused more deaths in the past decade than measles has. o.O

Here's what Snopes has to say about the latest iteration of that:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/mmrdeaths.asp

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Archetype694 on Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:54 am

Wondering wrote:
Here's what Snopes has to say about the latest iteration of that:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/mmrdeaths.asp

Thanks for the link.

I would assume it's not inconceivable some portion of the population would have a bad, even life threating reaction's to something like this. My limited familiarity with MMR is when I worked in healthcare, where it's mandated for the safety of the patients. I would still think that for the safety of the populace the odds are still worth it but I do acknowledge that's easy to say in the face of I would not be the one having such a reaction nor do I have any little one's to worry about.

It's an discussion I've had with my best friends and their daughter, whom I love like my own, so I do empathize.

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:05 pm

Wondering wrote:I'm actually seeing less about autism and the MMR vaccine these days and more about how the MMR vaccine causes horrible complications. The sort that are possible from the vaccine but are very rare. Oh, and how it's caused more deaths in the past decade than measles has. o.O

Here's what Snopes has to say about the latest iteration of that:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/mmrdeaths.asp

Yeah, that claim ticks me off a lot.

It's like people who point to the cases where people have been trapped in their cars by seatbelts and say, "Seat belts are a death trap!"

1. The MMR complications are self-reported and not vetted. If someone's child dies or goes deaf or falls down or gets sick within the month after receiving a vaccine, they can report it as an MMR complication. There is no evidence at all that the vaccine actually caused the issues.

2. The reason no one died from measles is because of the vaccine!!!

OMG! We're having 10 people a year die from a medical procedure meant to save lives! Better ditch it and go back to the 35 totally natural measles-related deaths a year in the early 70s. Or the 450 totally natural measles-related deaths a year before 1963, when the vaccine became available.

450 dead a year is better than 10, right? As long as it's natural selection taking them out, and mostly centered in poorer groups, and not due to a medical intervention?

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by caliseivy on Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:56 pm

I know it's been a few days since anyone posted in this topic, but I just found this post about a letter Roald Dahl wrote about getting vaccinated that's timely and maybe if people who are anti-vaccination read it it might strike a chord.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Caffeinated on Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:12 pm

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:27 pm

ElizaJane wrote:
1. The MMR complications are self-reported and not vetted.  


Oh, well if that's the standard, then I'm not getting vaccinated because one of my friends got hit by a car two weeks after getting his vaccination, so obviously vaccines cause hit and runs. Laughing

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:39 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
ElizaJane wrote:
1. The MMR complications are self-reported and not vetted.  


Oh, well if that's the standard, then I'm not getting vaccinated because one of my friends got hit by a car two weeks after getting his vaccination, so obviously vaccines cause hit and runs. Laughing

No joke: that is about the level of some of them.

"A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine."

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by reboot on Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:41 pm

Some of these stories are heartbreakinghttp://shotbyshot.org/story-gallery/
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:58 pm

Before I click that link, reboot, do I want to read those stories? I have an unvaccinated 6 month old.

This story is making the rounds, and apparently having some effect. Sadly, at the potential expense of a 15-day old baby.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2951578/You-think-protecting-child-protect-child-Mom-lashes-anti-vaxxers-hospital-says-15-DAY-OLD-son-exposed-measles.html

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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by eselle28 on Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:12 pm

Wondering wrote:Before I click that link, reboot, do I want to read those stories? I have an unvaccinated 6 month old.

This story is making the rounds, and apparently having some effect. Sadly, at the potential expense of a 15-day old baby.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2951578/You-think-protecting-child-protect-child-Mom-lashes-anti-vaxxers-hospital-says-15-DAY-OLD-son-exposed-measles.html

The link has a collection of stories about HPV and cervical cancer. I found some of them very sad, but the trigger would be more "women worried about their health" than "parents worried about children."

And, wow, that poor family...
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by eselle28 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:48 am

reboot wrote:Some of these stories are heartbreakinghttp://shotbyshot.org/story-gallery/

So I finally gritted my teeth and watched more than the first couple, and yeah, heartbreaking. And I don't think that the fact that so many young women were featured is that unusual? Or at least, one of my good friends had to have her first precancerous lesions removed when she was about 23 or 24. She's had to have a couple of procedures since then, and is pretty much aware that she'll likely have cervical cancer someday. Her experience was one of the things that motivated me to get vaccinated, even though I was a couple years past the cutoff point, which made it expensive and inconvenient. It's hard for me to understand why parents would object to having their kids vaccinated when it's covered by insurance and recommended. I mean, most parents want their kids to be sexually active someday, even if that's in the context of marriage and for the purpose of producing grandchildren.
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by celette482 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:22 pm

My mom jumped on the gardasil, nagging me (I was in college) each time she called to make an appointment. I was also the poster child for HiB back in the day. (they filmed me at my daycare for the local news report).
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Re: Vaccines and anti-vaxxers

Post by Wondering on Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:19 pm

Well, the recent measles outbreak apparently is driving more people to get their kids vaccinated according to what I learned from our pediatrician: Their office is out of flu shots and MMR vaccines due to a run on vaccines following the outbreak.

This is great for unvaccinated kids getting vaccinated. But it's pretty bad for those who are due to have the vaccines not having any available. The doctor's office may be out of flu shots for the season. And I hope they'll have more MMR vaccines by the time my baby needs it. I have no idea what happens to the babies who are due for it now, though, and can't get it. Apparently, the run has caused a statewide shortage.

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