Re: The Same OLD Stories: Dating Profile/Message Advice

[BasedBuzzed]

The dating site vets on DNL Main simply clear their entire cache of questions save for 50 or so dealbreakers. I also suspect the majority of people don't bother to look into the questions to deeply save for the worst red flags by pure volume of messages they get or have to shoot off. Less content to wade through is better, perhaps, good pics and first messages are key.

[Guest]

Why did I feel that way? Well, I'm not the only woman on this site who's said that at some point in her dating life she decided to stop dating nerd men because of issues ranging from entitlement to missing stairs to geek social fallacies to a host of other things that are very particular to the nerd community and its treatment of women. Nerd virgin men? My experience with nerd men who said they were virgins was even worse. The entitlement, whinyness, and expectations of emotional labor skyrocketed.

Right, nerd guys aren't moral paragons, not by a long shot. It's really sad, actually and makes me ashamed to even be able to identify with nerds.
And since I've said that I'm a nerd virgin man, does that make me sound worse than I actually am? D: If so holy shit, is that incredibly far from the truth --truth being I'm just trying to figure out this whole relationships thing (still) and if me having zero experience is a serious deal breaker.

And wait, pause, what does emotional labor mean? I keep hearing that tossed around and I still have no idea what it means.

Now, that doesn't mean all nerd men virgins were like that. My husband was not. But nerd men who made a point of saying they were virgins? Yeah. You see so many of them all the time on DNL's blog. Not the guys actually looking for help, but the guys with creepy ideas that 14 should be the age of consent or that they're owed blow jobs and PiV sex because of the bullying they suffered as kids and on and on and on. So, yeah. I would avoid guys who said they were virgins. Because I and my women friends had really really bad experiences with more than just one of them.

Of course nobody is owed anything and bullying is a bullshit excuse. I mean, I get it, but it's still rather stupid. But all that other stuff is definitely creepy. -shudders-

My husband? I knew he was feminist friendly before I met him in person. I found out he was fully feminist as I dated him. I knew he wasn't creepy or entitled. And then I found out he was a virgin and it didn't matter.

Is that fair? Maybe not to men who want all the women in their dating pool. But I also don't think it's fair to expect women to continue to put themselves in situations that have consistently and continually been harmful or dangerous to them because not all guys who fit that descriptor are like that. (And I really, really don't think it's fair to compare women who say they don't want to date virgins to people who talk about The Blacks or The Mexicans but don't have problems with the one they know who's totally okay. I have a Serious Problem with that comparison.)

So, does it matter that you're a virgin. No? Does it matter that you make a point to say you're a virgin? Maybe. I recommend just not answering the question.

So, in your (and others') past experience, nerd virgin dudes have been some of the biggest and creepiest assholes in the world. That's fair and it's completely understandable that that's not someone (or rather not people) you wanna deal with. But then you get idiots like me, who while not the brightest with women but mean well get negatively tagged along with assholes. Because to me it sounds like by pure virtue of being a nerdy virgin dude (even though I don't look like one) I'm automatically disqualified from... well, everyone. D: That's the frustrating part because as much as I wanna say "Hey, I'm not like those assholes", it won't do much.

Ultimately, the reason I asked if putting down that I was a virgin was okay was because I'm a big proponent of honesty and not coming off as a creepy asshole. Which I realize given what you told me, is sort of an oxymoron. -sigh- Look, I don't want to give these ladies on OLD the wrong idea or impression. That's why I'm willing to say that I'm a virgin out in the open because I don't want to give them the impression that I'm not and then when we get down to business turns out I have no idea what I'm doing. I've been told over and over again to be honest with people and in particular people you want to date, okay, so there's the truth. I don't want to omit that information because some people take omission to be as bad as lying and I cannot lie. No, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a virgin but the attitudes and connotations around it from both men and women are very worrisome to me.

tl;dr I just want to be honest and open about my lack of experience in the sense that "Hey, I'm inexperience but don't let that fool you into thinking that I'm a weird creepy asshole."

Or am I completely off base here? If so, I'm sorry. D:

EDIT: Well I'll be damned, I was randomly picked to be an OKC mod.

[reboot]

Mikey, you are spinning this way out of proportion. There is no "right" answer, just the answer that works best for you. Here are your options:

1. Answer the question, knowing that it will likely limit your matches, but it also means everyone knows and it does not have to be discussed much later

2. Do not answer the question and keep a bigger match pool, knowing that when the time comes to discuss sexual history, some people are not going to want to continue the relationship once you say you are a virgin

Pick whichever option is most comfortable to you.

[Dannyboy]

To play devil's advocate here, um. Do you have to tell a girl you're a virgin?

[Guest]

Mikey, you are spinning this way out of proportion. There is no "right" answer, just the answer that works best for you. Here are your options:

1. Answer the question, knowing that it will likely limit your matches, but it also means everyone knows and it does not have to be discussed much later

2. Do not answer the question and keep a bigger match pool, knowing that when the time comes to discuss sexual history, some people are not going to want to continue the relationship once you say you are a virgin

Pick whichever option is most comfortable to you.

Sorry, I'm trying to understand saying versus not saying was a good idea. So, I apologize if that was rather long winded. And if I can be honest, neither option sounds good, though I guess I can choose option 2. D:

I guess I could omit the answer but that doesn't seem right for me either.

[reboot]

Lots of times you need to pick the least bad option because there are no 100% perfect, guaranteed success options. Go with what is comfortable for you. What works for you will not work for everyone, but fuck everyone,

[Wondering]

And wait, pause, what does emotional labor mean? I keep hearing that tossed around and I still have no idea what it means.

We have two threads in the Gender Issues forum about emotional labor. You even posted in one asking the same question. And I responded with a lengthy and detailed example. There are lots of examples in the other thread, too. I strongly suggest you read both threads.

And frankly, I find it frustrating that you asked this same question there, and I took quite a bit of time to respond, and you don't seem to have read it. You're not required to read it, of course, but to keep asking the question when there are places in this forum you could read to help answer it makes me less willing to respond to your questions in general.

[Guest]

We have two threads in the Gender Issues forum about emotional labor. You even posted in one asking the same question. And I responded with a lengthy and detailed example. There are lots of examples in the other thread, too. I strongly suggest you read both threads.

And frankly, I find it frustrating that you asked this same question there, and I took quite a bit of time to respond, and you don't seem to have read it. You're not required to read it, of course, but to keep asking the question when there are places in this forum you could read to help answer it makes me less willing to respond to your questions in general.

I did? Aw crap, I'm really sorry. It was so long ago and I never actually saw your reply after checking back on the thread many times. I don't fully remember where the thread was, in any event I'll go hunt it down. Don't worry about it.

And so we're clear, I'm really sorry, Wondering. I'm truly deeply sorry am for being an inconsiderate jerk. You don't have to answer my questions if you don't want to. I'll probably cease asking questions anyway and try to figure shit out for myself (not so fun times ahead).

[Werel]

Because to me it sounds like by pure virtue of being a nerdy virgin dude (even though I don't look like one) I'm automatically disqualified from... well, everyone. D: That's the frustrating part because as much as I wanna say "Hey, I'm not like those assholes", it won't do much.

I get the impulse to say "I'm not like them," but you're right that it won't do much-- the only thing that's going to help you here is showing that you're "not like them." (People can say they're anything on earth, but only observing them for a while will tell you if they're right). And like reboot and Wondering said, it takes time and exposure to a person to feel fairly confident that they don't have [Negative Qualities XYZ]. If you want people who're skittish about nerd virgin stereotypes to take the time to get to know you, you might want to hold off on invoking those stereotypes until you've shown them through your behavior that you're not that dude. Like Wondering's husband did.

edit: And I would even identify "protesting that they're a really good person and expecting to be believed right away" as one of those unpleasant nerd stereotypes-- voilà, another reason to not say you're not like those dudes.

I've been told over and over again to be honest with people and in particular people you want to date, okay, so there's the truth. I don't want to omit that information because some people take omission to be as bad as lying and I cannot lie.

If you're only looking to date people who consider every omission a lie, this is an okay strategy, but that is not most people. Most people do not put every single detail about themselves on the table before they even meet someone, and they don't expect others to do the same. Some stuff is just private, and you get to decide on an individual basis when you disclose it. It's not lying, it's boundaries, and I think sexual history is one of those things for most people. (Which I think answer's Dannyboy's question:

To play devil's advocate here, um. Do you have to tell a girl you're a virgin?

Nope. You get to choose. (I'll play my usual devil's advocate here with "but some girls are into that, so weigh the possibility of it actually being fun news!")

But look, if you're not comfortable dating people who have any skittishness around virginity, then it's also your prerogative to filter those people out of your dating pool. That may filter out a lot of folks, but you weren't compatible anyway. Like reboot said, you just have to pick the set of risks and consequences that most lines up with your comfort zone.

[Guest]

I get the impulse to say "I'm not like them," but you're right that it won't do much-- the only thing that's going to help you here is showing that you're "not like them." (People can say they're anything on earth, but only observing them for a while will tell you if they're right). And like reboot and Wondering said, it takes time and exposure to a person to feel fairly confident that they don't have [Negative Qualities XYZ]. If you want people who're skittish about nerd virgin stereotypes to take the time to get to know you, you might want to hold off on invoking those stereotypes until you've shown them through your behavior that you're not that dude. Like Wondering's husband did.

Exactly, I won't even bother with saying it since they've made up their minds. -shrug- I try showing I'm not like that at all, but it doesn't work. I've been around people for months and hours before in an attempt to show I'm not that much of a jerk or even a creepy asshole (awkward dumbass, is more accurate), but that hasn't worked either. But honestly if they're skittish about the nerd virgin thing, I'm probably not gonna bother with them because chances are they're not going to want to have anything to do with me anyway and that's fine. I know that ain't me, but they don't. They're watching their backs and I get it, so it's okay with me.

edit: And I would even identify "protesting that they're a really good person and expecting to be believed right away" as one of those unpleasant nerd stereotypes-- voilà, another reason to not say you're not like those dudes.

I wasn't really protesting? I, wha? Yeah, you're right, that's usually the case. But sometimes, it's just frustrated questioning. Like take for example that episode of the Simpsons when Flanders has his house destroyed he pretty much shouts why is this awful crap happening to him if all his life he's literally been a kind person. Ya know? If you've seen that episode, you know what I'm talking about for otherwise harmless dudes.

Maybe I'm way off base, but man is it frustrating.

If you're only looking to date people who consider every omission a lie, this is an okay strategy, but that is not most people. Most people do not put every single detail about themselves on the table before they even meet someone, and they don't expect others to do the same. Some stuff is just private, and you get to decide on an individual basis when you disclose it. It's not lying, it's boundaries, and I think sexual history is one of those things for most people.

I'm not, but I try to be honest and open with everyone about this kinda thing. You ask and I probably have an answer for you, just be ready that not all my answers will be cut & dry or not gross. Ya know? Of course it's common sense that I won't tell someone everything outta the gate either. Unless asked, I keep quiet on most things including my own silly virginity/inexperience. I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea or upset when I tell them I've never been with anyone.

And with that, more lessons learned... I'll bow out of here for awhile.

[BasedBuzzed]

Notable results from a burst of messaging (trivia convos left out entirely):
-drink invitation for dudette which I had a relatively okay discussion with in 10 or so messages. She said she'd get back to me, profile deleted and/or blocked. Verdict: is just not interested in me and being polite, exchange was the right amount of messages.
-exchange on going to a festival with plans or without plans. Got sarcastic reply "what wisdom". Rolled with it with turning it into an upcoming book. Verdict: too wordy makes me sound arrogant, replying with hyperbole smacks too much of insecurity.
-got a "so, Bas, is this your opener?" on Tinder, replied with "Bad puns are my life, not gonna pretend I'm something else than I am", to which she responded "don't be so insecure". Verdict: hyperbole sounds defensive, better stick to anything that can not be parsed in that manner even if context is ambiguous.

I don't think I suffer from lack of confidence so much as difficulty in striking a right balance between down-to-business, deflating and dapper. Depending on her reactions I can go from one to the other in a manner that feels very artificial.
*Tongue-in-cheek hyperbole followed by a coffee invitation feels like you've done your performance and now expect to get a date in return.
*hyperbole followed by a skeptical reaction leading to me doing deflation feels like I'm worried I might have offended her and thus feel insincere or insecure.
And so on and so forth. It screams high-maintenance to some, or simply doesn't appeal to a person who wants dapper or deflated mode all the time (and neither of those types appeal to me for something serious).

I dearly hope this is something that's part of the communication and not something that's part of the personality, or else I'm boinked.

[BasedBuzzed]

Also, Bumble matches. "Hi's" and the polar bear weight joke. Why did I ever expect the average dudette to not be as hopeless at openers as the average dude?

[Izmuth]

Does Bumble work well in your experience?

I'm kinda curious how it compares to Tinder, for instance.

[BasedBuzzed]

Geographical data not reliable since I'm Dutch, but it seems to be skewing a tad older and more towards yuppy women without the cringe factor (zero kale/yoga/Uber trifecta so far). Number of participants may be higher in America. Gauging that if you're looking for serious faster, this is a good pool.

[Izmuth]

Cool, thanks for sharing your experience!

[inkyfingers]

Hello everyone!  I'm new to posting (although a longtime lurker). I'll moving out of my parent's house soon to be a Real Adult, which makes it a perfect time to start looking for casual dates again.

So far, I've had very little luck on OKC- a couple people in polyamorous relationships whose partner vetoed at the last minute.  Plenty of drive by/ mass messages/catcalls, but very few who seem particularly promising, and the pickings have become slimmer over time.  I live in a ruralish area, so options are limited , and I'm trying to move somewhere else asap... which is why I'd hesitate before entering something too serious. How does my profile look?  Too whimsical? am I driving people off in droves?

https://www.okcupid.com/profile/scorchypants?cf=regular

Advice is appreciated, and will be rewarded with cookies, booze, or really snazzy socks if you aren't into junk food.

[Werel]

Hi inkyfingers! I'm sure other people will have better tips re: adding to your profile's dating appeal, but a couple things stood out to me as a straight lady:

1. Typos: Not a big deal for some people, but grating to others. Spellcheck is handy! If you want to keep folks in your dating pool who might frown a little at "volenteer" or "payed," maybe take a quick copyediting pass? Or if you want to weed out spelling/capitalization purists, keep 'em in.

2. You've got some good inviting parts, like "come over and see my etchings" and "go adventuring," that give people some idea of the stuff you might do together, but I'm drawing a blank on the kind of social activities you might do with new partners. Museums? Maybe add a bit about "let's go to a museum and rearrange all the exhibits to be more interesting" or something else that gives people an idea of how you enjoy spending your out-of-the-house time, and what activities would be fun to do with you.

3. If the first thing you're gonna say is "I make really weird art," don't be a dang tease! Maybe include some as one of your photos-- could be a really good icebreaker.

You've chosen a good array of photos, though! Nothing blurry or grouchy or you-with-seven-other-people, and they show you in a variety of settings and situations.

[inkyfingers]

Hello Werel! thanks for the advice, and for responding so quickly, too.

I do tend to care very little about spelling and grammar if it isn't distracting me. I feel like it's a case of missing the forest for the trees. But it is kind of dumb looking if i'm also bragging about how much I like to write.

Man.... social life is hard right now. I think it's because I live fairly far away from the rest of the world, and it's like being in a glass box, (albeit a very scenic one) I get along well with my co- workers, but that's one thing that's propelled me into moving- I suspect it will do wonders for my social life, that and not spending all my time in commute.

I'm glad it's good that I don't have a lot of pictures with oodles of other people in them. I was worried it would make me seem asocial, but I didn't want to put them unsuspectingly on a dating site too.


Cheers

[Dannyboy]

Would anybody mind if I put up my new OKC profile for criticism?

[Werel]

Nope, that's the purpose of this thread!

[Dannyboy]

Alright, thanks Werel.

https://www.okcupid.com/profile/Sweet_Blindess/

[BasedBuzzed]

The random capitalization irks me a bit, but that's ignorable.
I think you should have at least one photo in the front three with a big smile.
Good list on the profile, not too few or too many deets of hobbies, "I..." sentences read a bit repetitive, perhaps "You can find me..", "X is one of my hobbies", etc. to mix it up a bit.

Apart from the smile this is all nitpicking, so you're good.

[BasedBuzzed]

We are at 35 views per week, mainly due to widespread messaging. I'm not really sure whether my response rate is improving, but so far it's sadly mostly the people who are relatively far away.

[AndytheBro]

Not sure if I'm necromancing an old thread or if thats not allowed, just assuming I can post this here.

This is so strange, I have no real clue as to why I did this. I thought I would focus on approaching women in real life before giving online dating a try. But the Doc's book was on sale, so I thought I might as well complete the set. I was reading the advice in the book, some of it new, some of it stuff already known, and then at like 10 pm on Friday I just thought "What the hell" and made a profile on Ok Cupid. Here it is: (see edit) (maybe just add AndyBro97 to the end of ok cupid profile link.)

Any advice would be appreciated. The only things I can see are the lack of quantity (and quality) photos; and the rather bare bones self summary. I'm terrible at self portraits (does anyone else think the word selfie is lame?), and I'm trying to get friends of mine to take photos of me and us and the stuff we'd do, but we rarely go out together in the first place. Not to mention last time I brought that up, we all ended up forgetting to take pics when we last hung out.

For the self summary, its basically just me failing to think of positives for myself. When it comes to "Who are you? And what do you want?" (- Uncle Iroh) You might as well be asking me "Does god exist?" or "Will the U.S ever live in a post capitalist society?" in the fact that those are incredibly complex questions I'd have endless trouble trying to answer.

I've exchanged messages with 2 girls so far (one even messaged me first!) but unfortunately, that one was in high school (I'm willing to date 18 year olds, but only the ones who've graduated), and the other was with someone with a bare bones profile I couldn't really work with, and who sends like 3 word replies and never asks me questions out side of "wassup?" Idk, maybe I'm just overthinking all this. Feel free to let me know!

EDIT: Whoops, I guess I can't post it until 7 days have passed. Welp, advice is still appreciated, just use your imagination, lol

[Prajnaparamita]

Andy the bro, Andy the bro... Why does that username sound so familiar...? Oh! Are you the total sweetheart who posts on the main DNL site, the thoughtful feminist teenager who is still trying to figure out himself and what he wants? Dude, I'm so glad you're posting here. I don't have a Disqus account because generally there's nothing that I feel I could provide that the wonderful camp of commenters over there don't already say, (and I far prefer the more intimate, long-form postings here) but I've always wanted to say that I think you're a wonderful fellow and the kind of dude I wish I could have dated back when I was 18.

A few thoughts--one, OKC is sorta gonna be biased against you for a couple years, as you're going to be the youngest person on the site for awhile and a lot of people's parameters are going to likely filter you out. It's nothing wrong with you, it's just that with the way people set who they are looking for, you're likely going to have a lot more matches when you're 20 than when you're 19.

As for self-descriptions, this is another thing like photos that friends can be super helpful for, as they often see in us things that we really don't see in ourselves. If you have close friends who you can trust and are down for talking about things like that, it might be useful to ask what it is that they really see in you, what they find valuable about having you in their lives. Sometimes when I feel like I can't think of positives about myself, or feel like I don't really have an identity friends can help reflect back to me the parts of myself that I don't notice or forget to see. Try to take notes of what they're saying in the moment and focus on concrete things. Good luck!

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