Re: High Libido, Low Drag [vent/disc]

[The Mikey]

EDIT: Sorry if I sound like an asshole, I’m feeling a touch raw/emotional right now. Feeling Bummed, shitty, lonely, and highly unattractive. Still getting no attention from any app and still too shy to try approaching anyone. I had joined a SoCal discord to try and increase social connections but that fizzled out quick. I fucking hate online dating and apps too.

None ever worked. I hate being shy with people I’m attracted to. Again, I’m just feeling emotional and shitty.

I would suggest don't think of it as a list of things to tick off a checklist. I would define it as gradually making the interaction more intimate in tone than where it started, rather than getting stuck at superficial politeness and then trying to jump straight to "will you come on a date with me?"

It's as much about listening to cues as projecting them: I've had interactions where the woman was perfectly pleasant and happy to talk to me, but she subtly brushed off any attempts to up the intensity so I quickly abandoned them. It's if you don't get that and keep trying over and over that it becomes a problem.

Well no, I didn’t think it was a checklist. Frankly, I wouldn’t know how to make it more intimate in tone.  I am always polite and I always give people some modicum of basic respect and expect that in return. I’m just terrible at hinting at my attraction to women, terrible. I cannot fathom nor do I understand how to do that.

I listen for cues but I have zero clue what those cues are. I think I’m always projecting those cues and I’m positive it’s just wishful thinking. I was stupid as fuck thinking one of my coworkers was attracted to me since she came across as giggly and maybe ultra flirty. Then the other day she mentioned “the guy [she] was sorta seeing”, now I’m fairness, my attraction to her was waning but, I felt foolish even thinking she was remotely interested in me at all. (And slightly relieved.)

I don’t even try to up the intensity since I have no idea how or what to even say.

In terms of exact things to say and do, as I say it depends an awful lot on the starting point. Flirting with someone you're already on a date with is going to be different from where you so far have a completely professional or platonic relationship with them and are trying to see if they are open to changing that. I would see it as a hierarchy: the same scene could play out with differences in emotional intensity.

Yeah, that would be different and if I’m being honest, sounds like a catch-22.

Example 1 - seeing someone at work on Monday morning and discussing what you did at the weekend.

Flirting: you are more emotionally open and more probing the ground for asking her on a weekend date in future. If not much happened and you felt a bit lonely, you might actually say so in a way that doesn't sound too depressive.  

Emotionally more open? I, uh, don’t know what that means.

Example 2 - practising a sport with someone

Flirting: you are being much more playful. If she's genuinely good at it you are really admiring, if she isn't you give her little chances to beat you. You could even get into teasing about minor prizes/forfeits for who wins and loses. Basically, the experience of you being together takes over from the core purpose of the activity.

Ahh I see. I dunno if I’d be in a situation like that, but it kinda makes sense?

[The Mikey]

I hate work crushes tbh.

I'm suffering from one right now really bad. Down to earth, chill, hates where we work, leans mostly left from what I can tell. Obviously not into the same things I am, but i think we could learn lol.

But I hate work crushes.

[Hielario]

Why? Is your workplace one of those with rules against dating coworkers? Or is there another reason?

[Datelessman]

While I can't speak for The Mikey, but for me, as well as many trains of thought within American society, dating within the workplace is difficult. Mixing emotions with professionalism alone takes a lot of careful maneuvering and social smarts. The workplace isn't a socially accepted location for romantic efforts, and romances that do emerge usually bubble forth from a lot of mutual desire as well as, likely, exploration outside of work or at more socially acceptable locations (i.e. a work party, lunch/dinner/coffee outside of work or after work, etc.). If one party misunderstands another, it can lead to awkwardness, which can lower productivity and make a workplace have more tension. If things go really bad, or the workplace has strict anti-dating policies, then it can lead to a chat with HR and/or termination. Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

I've had crushes at work many times, including fairly recently (such as last year). But as someone who has a hard time navigating normal dating situations, I never saw fit to mingle work and pleasure. There's too much risk and too little reward. At best, if there is some mutual chemistry, it's best to take it outside of work.

[inbloomer]

While I can't speak for The Mikey, but for me, as well as many trains of thought within American society, dating within the workplace is difficult. Mixing emotions with professionalism alone takes a lot of careful maneuvering and social smarts. The workplace isn't a socially accepted location for romantic efforts, and romances that do emerge usually bubble forth from a lot of mutual desire as well as, likely, exploration outside of work or at more socially acceptable locations (i.e. a work party, lunch/dinner/coffee outside of work or after work, etc.). If one party misunderstands another, it can lead to awkwardness, which can lower productivity and make a workplace have more tension. If things go really bad, or the workplace has strict anti-dating policies, then it can lead to a chat with HR and/or termination. Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

I've had crushes at work many times, including fairly recently (such as last year). But as someone who has a hard time navigating normal dating situations, I never saw fit to mingle work and pleasure. There's too much risk and too little reward. At best, if there is some mutual chemistry, it's best to take it outside of work.

Although that isn't untrue, you can make similar arguments about clubs and societies - people can equally say they are there for the group's main activity, not to get asked out. Being asked to leave a club may be a bit less serious than getting sacked, but it's not fun. So actually, if you eliminate every situation that has those kind of risks, all you're left with is online dating, which has plenty of problems and limitations of its own.

Many of the supposed learnable skills around dating I don't believe actually have much impact on dating success, although they may be worthwhile in their own right. However, if you do consider daily activities a valid pipeline for meeting people, there is one tricky but important skill. That is, when there's someone who you "see around", but you aren't organically getting into conversations with, when is it OK to "go up and say hi" or equivalent?

From experience, there are times when you absolutely can, or it's a reasonable risk, and there are times when you just can't - however well-intentioned you are it will come across as weird and inappropriate. The lines between those can indeed be quite fine, and a small misjudgement can make things feel awkward for quite a while afterwards. But again, I think writing off anyone you meet through daily activities as too difficult and risky is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Datelessman]

For the record, there is a gulf of difference between talking with a co-worker as a friend and/or making small talk, and trying to ask them out on a date.

As for how easy it is to break the ice at work, it depends on the job and the situation. At my last two gigs, I usually formed close bonds with people in my training class via that shared experience. Other times it can be someone who sits in the cubicle beside me, or in the same row. Or someone who I keep bumping into at the vending machine. Or even someone on the same "team" during a work meeting.

I don't know how others work, but for me, I can easily compartmentalize my various "social roles." I have "work mode," "weekend mode" and so on, same as everyone is usually different at work versus at home. Once I get over some shyness I am often pretty chatty at work. A sense of humor is very helpful, and I've noticed even the slightest bit of imagination impresses people. It's almost pathetic, in a way. I can tell a clever joke and some people act like I found the Rosetta Stone. But I still know I am at work and not to blend things too much. In fact I imagine most if not all of my co-workers would be surprised to learn I was a dateless virgin off the clock. My "work persona" is often very confident and competent, and I can sound like I know what I am talking about, even when I don't.

As for breaking the ice with a co-worker who you have nothing to do with, the shared work environment is usually fine for an icebreaker. But as for shifting it beyond casual well...that's Dating 401 and I am still in Remedial Learning (featuring the puppets "Best Self" and "Grimes"). For what it is worth, I've been at quite a few jobs where the dudes rarely had much fear about being slightly flirty with some women, at least during breaks or lunch, but I've never been so bold. Heck, at one call center the women (mostly quite older) were worse about that than the guys were. But I still consider such a thing risky. Most people at work are there to work.

[inbloomer]

That all sounds sensible thinking. An example of what I had in mind is with sports clubs, where you often have a core group you train with directly, and then a wider circle of people who use the same facilities at the same times but aren't in your group. Breaking the ice within your core group will usually happen organically. Breaking the ice with people in the wider circle ... that's where it's a lot more tricky and depends on fine judgement of the situation.

[Hielario]

Since I'm Very Inexperienced in this regard and I suspect workplace culture is different where I live, I haven't much to say, except for two things that I really need to get out:
A)

Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

This sounds fucking terrifying.

B) What happens if you try to summon Mr. "Respectable Work Persona" in other contexts?

[Datelessman]

That all sounds sensible thinking. An example of what I had in mind is with sports clubs, where you often have a core group you train with directly, and then a wider circle of people who use the same facilities at the same times but aren't in your group. Breaking the ice within your core group will usually happen organically. Breaking the ice with people in the wider circle ... that's where it's a lot more tricky and depends on fine judgement of the situation.

As well as a degree of circumstance (or, luck, basically). Or some social overlap, such as if some people in your core group happen to know some people in outer groups. The difference with work versus a sports club is that a lot of times these groups are mandatory. You may have an assigned seat, desk, or cubicle which happens to be beside some people. You have no clue who is in a training class (it could be a room full of dudes and old biddies or a squad where a third of the women are younger and on the rebound), and that takes a degree of luck, too. But the biggest difference is that attempting to mingle a potentially romantic role with a work role is not the easiest thing to do, carries considerable risk which can have economic consequences, and that, in general, work is not or should not be seen as a dating opportunity. If something arises it is usually a good idea to do most of the exploring outside of work.

And that doesn't even get into the idea of rank within a company. I.E. the stigma and consequences of dating someone "above" or "below" you. Although, it is worth a mention, that anyone who examines Hollywood or Politics at any length will see that most of it is essentially nepotism (i.e. people who knew people or dated people).

Since I'm Very Inexperienced in this regard and I suspect workplace culture is different where I live, I haven't much to say, except for two things that I really need to get out:
A)

Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

This sounds fucking terrifying.

B) What happens if you try to summon Mr. "Respectable Work Persona" in other contexts?

It is quite terrifying. Bare in mind that in America, where union representation is below 10% of the workforce, that most jobs work like mini-kingdoms. The lower level a worker is, the more expendable they are, but anyone is vulnerable to the whims of those at the top. If your CEO is on a coke binge and wants another yacht and firing 10 people at random will do that and the business will be okay, then at least 10 people have to always be nervous. And in case you think I am being overly silly or cynical describing a CEO like this, allow me to link a news article from 2018 which features a story about a Google executive who died of a drug overdose on his yacht with the prostitute he'd hired for her services being convicted of charges that she essentially killed him with too many drugs on purpose. It only made news because the guy died. Had he lived, a "tech exec on a boat with drugs and a sex worker" would be about average for a Friday night. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alix-tichelman-call-girl-killer-describes-death-of-google-executive-forrest-hayes/

As for B), if I took "Mr. Work Persona" to other contexts, that would mean I call people "sir" or "ma'am" endlessly, I never get overly confrontational unless I lose my cool, and above all I put off an air of seeming like I know more than I actually do. The latter is actually a concern to me dating wise because I kind of do that without always meaning to. Between my natural affinity for humor and just the way I carry myself professionally (at least post-2014 or so), I could easily see myself in a situation where if things go well, that means in part a woman is severely overestimating my romantic skills and experience; which makes me fret about a letdown. It's like meeting the Fonz and then only once things get steamy does it seem clear he has no clue what to do. And while reacting to a surprise is a very subjective thing, few people when asked what they want in a new relationship will say "a surprise." Especially a surprise which leads to more instructions to heavy petting than may be needed for an average hookup.

There's also the fact that I don't have jobs which involve things I am passionate about. I.E. my work persona is how I pay the rent, and off the clock I am more passionate about almost everything else. Beyond telling the occasional "work story" or two. For example, currently my day job involves talking about stocks and shares and technical financial crap I do not give a darn about at all. To the point that if I managed to meet a woman who was genuinely into that and wanted to talk about it all the time, that might border on being a dealbreaker for me. Or at least a situation I would not want to be in -- "Can I pretend to care more about the stock market just enough to finally get laid? Has my life become an episode of LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE?" In theory this is good because we're told that woman don't like men who seem to identify only with their jobs. In practice, well...I imagine the older male virgin community does not overlap with certain occupations much.

[inbloomer]

It sounds to me like we're talking about really quite different cultures. Where I am, the bar to being fired (or expelled from a club) is relatively high, but there is a lot of pressure to bring your whole self to work, be genuinely passionate about it, and form personal relationships that go well beyond basic courtesy, rather than just treating it as something that pays the bills.

At the same time, concerns about sexual harassment and appropriateness have definitely got stronger over the last few years here as well. I'm certainly not saying the workplace is an ideal environment for dating, but I do think opportunities (or temptations, whatever you want to call it) can come up as a direct result of doing what you're expected to do in the job.

[Hielario]

IThe only part that I find weird is firing people merely to have some extra money, but the whole thing feels familiar otherwise, don"t worry. I guess down here they prefer underpaying or withholding salaries because of pretend "difficulties". (Well, and cocaine with their prostitutes instead of heroine.)

You know, I understand your concerns about expectations and not knowing what to do carnally, but I find slightly peculiar how your imagination never accounts for the burning intensity of someone released after decades of frustration (The other me may or may not have trampled someone over a sofa because of it).

LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE

I don't understand the reference. Internet tells me it was some sort of romantic comedy?

[Datelessman]

It sounds to me like we're talking about really quite different cultures. Where I am, the bar to being fired (or expelled from a club) is relatively high, but there is a lot of pressure to bring your whole self to work, be genuinely passionate about it, and form personal relationships that go well beyond basic courtesy, rather than just treating it as something that pays the bills.

At the same time, concerns about sexual harassment and appropriateness have definitely got stronger over the last few years here as well. I'm certainly not saying the workplace is an ideal environment for dating, but I do think opportunities (or temptations, whatever you want to call it) can come up as a direct result of doing what you're expected to do in the job.

I'm not sure where you're from but in New York, I have yet to work any job where I didn't know in no uncertain terms that I was expendable and could be fired at any time for any reason. And that includes the one city job I had (which fired me 2.5 weeks before I would be become permanent and had more union protections; a routine practice for them). I've been at my current gig for 2 years and I'm merely one rung above "seasonal temp." And thanks to the Covid Economy, worker desperation will get even worse. But at least the minimum wage is $15 here.

You are correct that romantic opportunities can and do happen at the workplace. Statistically it's actually one of the most common ways couples meet. I just am wary of it or of
recommending people, especially fellow romantic novices, place too many eggs in that basket. If that makes sense.

IThe only part that I find weird is firing people merely to have some extra money, but the whole thing feels familiar otherwise, don"t worry. I guess down here they prefer underpaying or withholding salaries because of pretend "difficulties". (Well, and cocaine with their prostitutes instead of heroine.)

You know, I understand your concerns about expectations and not knowing what to do carnally, but I find slightly peculiar how your imagination never accounts for the burning intensity of someone released after decades of frustration  (The other me may or may not have trampled someone over a sofa because of it).

LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE

I don't understand the reference. Internet tells me it was some sort of romantic comedy?

"Love, American Style" was a CBS sitcom from 1969-1974 that had two relaunch attempts in 1985 (which ran 2 seasons) and 1999. Decades TV (a local digital channel in NY) does binges of the show often for some reason which is the only reason I am aware of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love,_American_Style

Dropping bits of random, useless trivia is how I roll sometimes.

As for my "concerns" about "what to do carnally," I am simply aware that inexperience and "burning intensity" is not automatically a good mix. I would probably be far too anxious to just use pure lust to bowl over my self-doubts. I try to be realistic about things and imagining myself doing well my first time "carnally" always seems to far into the realm of fantasy or science fiction to me. I've never been very good at anything without a lot of practice; I doubt sex is any different. I don't think it's helpful for me to imagine an improbable situation in that regard (not impossible; merely improbable). At this point I am rolling with theory that due to the high percentage of men out there who are either lazy and/or selfish lovers, that so long as I display concern and interest about my partner's wishes, what she wants and how she wants it done, that I will seem about average despite my inexperience. That or I'm horrible, but I've hopefully made enough of an emotional connection that she likes me anyway and is willing to try again. If "terrible personality, awesome in the sack" can get a repeat performance sometimes, why not "funny dude, milquetoast lay"?

Although, and to bring this somewhat back to topic, I could also imagine "Mr. Work Persona" as you called it take over during such an experience. I am not afraid of asking lots of questions and sorting out what clients want, and taking direction. And who knows, maybe me slipping and replying with a "yes, ma'am" out of instinct might be amusing.

[Hielario]

Dropping bits of random, useless trivia is how I roll sometimes.

As for my "concerns" about "what to do carnally," I am simply aware that inexperience and "burning intensity" is not automatically a good mix. I would probably be far too anxious to just use pure lust to bowl over my self-doubts. I try to be realistic about things and imagining myself doing well my first time "carnally" always seems to far into the realm of fantasy or science fiction to me. I've never been very good at anything without a lot of practice; I doubt sex is any different. I don't think it's helpful for me to imagine an improbable situation in that regard (not impossible; merely improbable). At this point I am rolling with theory that due to the high percentage of men out there who are either lazy and/or selfish lovers, that so long as I display concern and interest about my partner's wishes, what she wants and how she wants it done, that I will seem about average despite my inexperience. That or I'm horrible, but I've hopefully made enough of an emotional connection that she likes me anyway and is willing to try again. If "terrible personality, awesome in the sack" can get a repeat performance sometimes, why not "funny dude, milquetoast lay"?

Hrrrrmmm i was going more for a "ugh, he has no idea... but DAMN he's enthusiastic!" kind of scenario instead of your horny overriding your anxiety, but I guess you answered that too. Focus on that idea that you would be average, though, it's a solid reasoning. I see you lack reasons to think being with you would be anything other than "meh", but that also excludes "catastrophic".

And who knows, maybe me slipping and replying with a "yes, ma'am" out of instinct might be amusing

Considering the popularity of regency romance novels, it might be arousing, even. XD.

Sigh...I'm kinda sad "adopt a dude dot com" worked so badly in practice. It was the ideal place to behave as if you were selling a product. (Yes, it's real. I tried it and it was an absolute nonfuctional mess.)

[inbloomer]

You are correct that romantic opportunities can and do happen at the workplace. Statistically it's actually one of the most common ways couples meet. I just am wary of it or of
recommending people, especially fellow romantic novices, place too many eggs in that basket. If that makes sense.

I agree with that. Even with clubs and societies, I would urge people to proceed with caution - if there's one thing I'd recommend there, it's to make the effort to be equally friendly with everyone. Things might in time develop organically with one particular person. But do not be someone who makes a beeline for the attractive women and is off-hand with everyone else. People will notice.

I just think it would be a mistake to think organised dating is much easier or more effective. The Guardian newspaper has a blind date feature that they've been running for many years, where both parties write up a questionnaire about the date afterwards. Basically, every single time one or both says there was no chemistry and if they met again at all, it would only be as friends. Even if you look at what happens in trashier versions, like Naked Attraction, most of the time the date never leads anywhere.

[Datelessman]

Hrrrrmmm i was going more for a "ugh, he has no idea... but DAMN he's enthusiastic!" kind of scenario instead of your horny overriding your anxiety, but I guess you answered that too. Focus on that idea that you would be average, though, it's a solid reasoning. I see you lack reasons to think being with you would be anything other than "meh", but that also excludes "catastrophic".

Considering the popularity of regency romance novels, it might be arousing, even. XD.

Sigh...I'm kinda sad "adopt a dude dot com" worked so badly in practice. It was the ideal place to behave as if you were selling a product. (Yes, it's real. I tried it and it was an absolute nonfuctional mess.)

You do have a point that being a "meh" lover, while hardly anything worth bragging about, would be better than being an awful one. It's as close to optimistic about my own expectations of my sexual performance (which remains a hypothetical formula, like the secret of eternal youth, cold fusion or compassionate conservatism) is going to get without experience. And likely more than one experience.

[I'll insert the disclaimer here that one's sexual performance is predicated by another person's opinion, and that all people have their own sexual preferences so what is hot for one may appall another and supposedly even among experienced lovers there is some awkwardness or adjustments to be made on the first time together and yada yada. I've been told it many times including by some of the cool people on this forum. I'm simply never going to buy it until I experience it. Much like the existence of ghosts, aliens, or Paulie Shore's talent.]

In my experience, most people only care about results. I operate under that mantra regarding women and dating because I assume it's the same as anything else. I don't imagine many woman caring one wit why I am a lame lay; if I am, that is all that will matter. As I said, if the performance of the "average man" is as lackluster as many women claim, then my mere desire to satisfy a woman by asking what she wants and listening will suddenly catapult me to average. I just feel any expectation beyond that is a bit delusional on my part. A virgin satisfying a woman the first time is the stuff of fiction, not life. But, there is more to life and women than sex. For example if I am dating someone compassionate and understanding who likes me, she may be willing to chalk it to nerves and give me another chance. Enthusiasm without results may only go so far, though.

I had to look up that "adopt a dude" thing and I don't know how viable it would have been. No guru is infallible. I'd submit I am a project who could bring the cast of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" to the brink of oblivion. It's not that I am beyond help, it's that it's like waring down a mountain with water. Most people don't have a thousand years.

I agree with that. Even with clubs and societies, I would urge people to proceed with caution - if there's one thing I'd recommend there, it's to make the effort to be equally friendly with everyone. Things might in time develop organically with one particular person. But do not be someone who makes a beeline for the attractive women and is off-hand with everyone else. People will notice.

I just think it would be a mistake to think organised dating is much easier or more effective. The Guardian newspaper has a blind date feature that they've been running for many years, where both parties write up a questionnaire about the date afterwards. Basically, every single time one or both says there was no chemistry and if they met again at all, it would only be as friends. Even if you look at what happens in trashier versions, like Naked Attraction, most of the time the date never leads anywhere.

I agree with that; dudes who only talk to the women they consider "hot" and no one else is rude and a dead giveaway.

I know organized dating is not easier. And I know a lot of it is a numbers game. I've worked in sales, after all. Yes, I am someone who has literally convinced a perfect stranger to donate to a charity on the phone via credit card on a cold call more than once, but who couldn't convince a woman to date me. I imagine that knowledge is behind a lot of anxiety of inexperienced men and they have the desire to "catch up." That fueled my going to speed dating events in 2009-2015.

Unfortunately there are few alternatives even in the best of times. There's no telling how casual dating will emerge post-Covid. It could a free for all with thirsty people to the point that even a hapless doofus like me could "get lucky" so long as I made the effort and wasn't a lunatic. Or it could get people even more used to celibacy than before and make them more discerning, which wouldn't help my chances at all. It isn't enough that I am competing with "any other single straight male" from a position of severe disadvantage; I am competing against a night of Netflix with ice cream and a cat, or Zoom D&D roleplaying, or learning a new skill on YouTube or an all night video game session. These things existed before, but during the pandemic have become even more mainstream than they ever were, filling a void for the extroverts. And as someone who has binged anime all night with ice cream, I know I can't compete with that. But I guess we'll all see in Summer/Fall 2021!

[Hielario]

I am competing against a night of Netflix with ice cream and a cat, or Zoom D&D roleplaying, or learning a new skill on YouTube or an all night video game session. These things existed before, but during the pandemic have become even more mainstream than they ever were, filling a void for the extroverts. And as someone who has binged anime all night with ice cream, I know I can't compete with that.

I don't know what is making me feel worse, the possibility of them seriously being like that, or hearing you seriously believe that you're inferior to any of those diversions. Please don't insult yourself like that.

Even if you look at what happens in trashier versions, like Naked Attraction, most of the time the date never leads anywhere.

UM, to be fair, a lot of those seem to pick and pair people purely for the spectacle value.

And speaking of spectacles, there's something I've been wondering. When I was a child and the internet was a mysterious fantastical thing for most regular people, sometimes american sitcoms and cartoons had stories about the protagonists shelling out for "contact agencies" , brick-and-mortar businesses who promised to find their perfect partner through their know-how or computerised algorithms...only to be put in a blind date with someone who was "hilariously" wrong. What was the deal with that? Did those exist?

[Datelessman]

I don't know what is making me feel worse, the possibility of them seriously being like that,  or hearing you seriously believe that you're inferior to any of those diversions. Please don't insult yourself like that.

We're still at least 6-10 months away from life in general approaching normal again, and that's if 80-90% of Americans actually take the vaccine when they can, which is a tall order. We can't even get 80% of Americans to agree that racism is bad or that Bigfoot isn't real. Until they no one will know what the casual dating scene will look like. There will be individual reality, of course, but an experience like a pandemic will on the whole either trigger a euphoric release or encourage people to hole up even more.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. However, I know what I offer and I'm a mediocre looking guy who's good for some dry one liners and snark. I'm entertaining, I'm not the worst time. But I'm not an anime binge with comfort food, because I've had that. A date with me so far has been, "well, that wasn't so bad," not "god, I can't get enough of him and I want his pants off." But like I said, who knows. In an era where late 2021 could feature a horde of stir crazy singles, just showing up and not being horrid could work for a while. THAT I can do.

And speaking of spectacles, there's something I've been wondering. When I was a child and the internet was a mysterious fantastical thing for most regular people, sometimes american sitcoms and cartoons had stories about the protagonists shelling out for "contact agencies" , brick-and-mortar businesses who promised to find their perfect partner through their know-how or computerised algorithms...only to be put in a blind date with someone who was "hilariously" wrong. What was the deal with that? Did those exist?

If you go back even further there were TV shows and movies that featured those brick-and-mortar dating agencies who would record VHS tapes of singles and mix and match them. Off the top of my head it was a plot point for an episode of "THE GREATEST AMERICAN HERO" and that was early 1980's. But, many of the things the Internet "added" to the dating scene already existed in a more primitive form before. Such as "personal ads" in newspapers, newsletters or local circulars which were the 70's and 80's version of OkCupid. And not to mention "phone chat lines" where people leave voice messages and can talk on the phone first, which still are floating around if some of the random commercials I see late at night are to be believed (which I tend not to). I briefly considered this, even though men usually pay (and pay a lot more) for those, because I've been told I have a nice voice and I technically make my living with it at call centers.

Physical dating services still exist (and I don't mean "escort services") but they're few and far between even before pre-Covid. I imagine like with anything, the results would depend on not only price but how reputable the place is. I mean an easy scam would be for a place like that to have 6 or so women "on staff" who are paid by the hour (or per date) to professionally go on first dates that lead nowhere for hordes of guys who pay fees and film tapes which just get stuffed in a bin. Then again, that may be how those places operated before Google Reviews or so on. I never tried one of those and I doubt I would. I hesitated at paying for "premium" OkCupid (before they massively changed their website), for crying out loud.

On the other hand, I did go to 3 speed dating events from 2009-2015. One of which was at the New York Comic Con. They were fun, but exhausting, and in the end came to nothing. There was definitely a difference in my performance in 2015, though. I'd had more call center experience, was better at conversations and overall felt I gave as good a performance as I could have.

[The Mikey]

Ahh you guys have been busy lol. Sorry I haven’t replied, this spot isn’t as lively as it used to be.

Why? Is your workplace one of those with rules against dating coworkers? Or is there another reason?

It’s been awhile since I read the employee manual, but I don’t think anyone really adheres to it much, if at all. I vaguely recall it said that it wasn’t allowed? Of course, i read this manual five years ago. As for why, well, Datelessman did provide a variety of reasons why i shouldn’t. But if you’ve known me for any length of time, you’ll know... I’m simply not the best judge of gauging interest from anyone and the number of misfires I have had has only made me more gunshy unless it’s clearly stated for sure interest towards me which even then I’m skeptical of. (Years of being ignored or not given any sort of attention from your preferred gender, especially during your formative years and being turned down for 12 or so years really makes you second guess if someone’s being friendly or is into you. I still find it hard to believe I can be or that I am desirable at all.)

Ultimately what also keeps me is me making them feel uncomfortable or awkward. I’m more than happy to still be friendly, but I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable or have them think I’m still trying to angle for a date when I’m not. I dunno, I’m weird.

While I can't speak for The Mikey, but for me, as well as many trains of thought within American society, dating within the workplace is difficult. Mixing emotions with professionalism alone takes a lot of careful maneuvering and social smarts. The workplace isn't a socially accepted location for romantic efforts, and romances that do emerge usually bubble forth from a lot of mutual desire as well as, likely, exploration outside of work or at more socially acceptable locations (i.e. a work party, lunch/dinner/coffee outside of work or after work, etc.). If one party misunderstands another, it can lead to awkwardness, which can lower productivity and make a workplace have more tension. If things go really bad, or the workplace has strict anti-dating policies, then it can lead to a chat with HR and/or termination. Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

I've had crushes at work many times, including fairly recently (such as last year). But as someone who has a hard time navigating normal dating situations, I never saw fit to mingle work and pleasure. There's too much risk and too little reward. At best, if there is some mutual chemistry, it's best to take it outside of work.

For someone as clueless as me, dating in general is difficult. Being pretty laidback myself, I feel like I could navigate it maybe since my (former) work crush is also laid back and works in a different department.

I would say that using work as a dating hunting ground is not ok, but if you manage to hit it off with a coworker, that’s still kind of ok. So long as they’re not in a higher position in which case, that’s where things get hairy. Thankfully me and (former) work crush were lowly employees that have no power over anyone. I’ll be honest, I don’t think or am sure I’ve not felt that mutual desire, sounds nice though lol. My plan originally was to invite (former) work crush to lunch over the weekend and maybe invite them to more stuff or use the words date after our lunch or idk.

Now, you may have noticed I put “(former)” in there, about a couple weeks ago, I was planning on exactly the above, however she kinda snapped or muttered something mean and snarky to me. I couldn’t tell since she had her face mask on but it definitely felt like I did something wrong when I was trying to joke with her. I understand she could’ve been busy and having a bad day, but still... it hurt me and I figured I may as well let her go.

Talking with my therapist, I made a rule to not initiate or engage. If she comes up to me and asks me stuff or whatever, I’ll respond, I’m not an asshole. Forget me trying to initiate, sadly I broke my rule yesterday and asked if her schedule was changing, but since they were talking about that across the newsroom, I think it was fair game lol.

Sigh.

[The Mikey]

Short life update, so a couple weeks ago, coworker got a new job, asked for a date in person when I saw her last. In person she said she was down to go on a date. Even suggested things for us to do!

Texted her later that day to make plans for some time soonish but said she wasn’t too sure when. After all, new job and her mom was in town. Texted her last week to wish her well on the new job and then again to see her availability.

No response to either text.

Cool. Felt like shit after no response and reading a DNL article. Most felt foolish for thinking she’d be interested in me at all. Sigh. Now I have no prospects again. I don’t even know for sure, but still.

EDIT: all the more reason why I keep my attraction to people to myself, I end up getting hurt especially when it’s someone I considered a friend. I mean, if she wasn’t interested, she coulda said so and yeah I’d be hurt but not as much as not knowing if it’s happening at all. Then again, I’m just fooling myself or idk.

She also proved to me that I’m gray ace.

[The Mikey]

Why is it when I read DNL I just feel depressed and shitty about myself? I’ve been wanting to get that off my chest for awhile now. It’s why I disappeared from the comments for long stretches of time because I’d ask for clarification or express how some things didn’t work for me and I’d

I’ve been reading his stuff for 10 years now and I still have little to no confidence nor do I know how to flirt. I’m still terrified of rejection so I keep it to myself and feel fucking stupid because of it too. I turn 30 in five months, still no relationship nor do I feel like I’m a good match for anyone here. I live in a big area btw, I guess I suck just that much.

I’ve been going to therapy for almost 2 years, it kind of helps, but I was never sure if it’d help with my dating dilemma.

I dunno what to do at this point. I know it’s a personal problem, but I really have no clue what to do or should do. I did the therapy thing like so many people said but I don’t feel much different or maybe it has and since I’m so close to me, I don’t see it.

[inbloomer]

As the years have gone on I've got very dubious about the value of any such site. It's arguably some help to see how the same few dating problems keep coming up over and over. But that's about it. I've definitely got better at dealing with nuanced social situations, but I learned that from having to handle very challenging ones in a work context, not from reading DNL. And these sites foster an attitude among their supporters that is aggressive towards anyone who doesn't follow the party line, which understandably means many people who come to them for help leave feeling worse not better. Probably the most accurate dating advice I've ever been given, which was from someone I later fell out with but she was right on this, is that until you meet the right person, there's not actually much you can do.

[The Mikey]

It’s not all bad, I mean, I’ll admit much of it is on me. However, I’d be liar if I didn’t say he wasn’t helpful. He has been and he means well. Reading some of his articles are great, but currently I’m not in a good headspace and then I just feel overwhelmed.

I think the best thing to do, is keep being my awkward silly self lol. Admit my feelings regardless of what the reaction may be and just remain as pure as I can and understand when they say no to my date offering. It’s hard, but I know I can do it. Like i tell my therapist, it’s just a matter of doing. It’s only a little difficult when you’ve never had much attention or your feelings reciprocated so it only compounds what I’ve been feeling already. It’s a weird lonely cycle. I’m still trying to get a handle on it.

All in all, I dunno why I care so much and why I despair over it too sometimes. I cried when work crush never replied. Goes to show where my head and heart is I guess. Thank you for listening!

[The Mikey]

Feelin’ shitty.

[Datelessman]

I am sorry you are feeling sad and dejected, The Mikey. You've certainly struggled with these feelings and trying to have a happy and successful romantic (and general) life for a long time.

I can certainly understand the feeling of hitting an "invisible wall," to use a gaming term, after so many years. You may avidly absorb the DNL advice and even "do the work," try to date, and also try to be "approachable" and "lead your best life as your best self" and [INSERT ONE OF DNL'S CATCHPHRASES WHICH HE SAYS ALL THE TIME, LIKE THAT JOKE ABOUT THOR'S HAMMER OR SMOKING AFTER SEX HERE] all that. Unfortunately I don't think there's much more to be said or offered if you are genuinely doing all you can and not getting results, at least which doesn't feel like a platitude. When you're lonely and frustrated, token lines like, "it'll happen when it happens" or all that feel like "moral victories," which is a term only losing sports teams use (i.e. pretty much all local NYC teams at this point).

In the end it is all a number's game and one thing which DNL and some gurus just don't always understand is that there really are people who for whatever reason, even through no fault of their own, never get out of that slump. DNL may uses that Picard line all the time, but he's too optimistic for people to really buy it (IMO of course).

Times like this, sometimes taking a break from it can be good, although speaking as a fellow inexperienced person, I also feel the dread when time is the enemy. I am officially "pushing 40" and am only months away from embodying a lame cliche (thanks, Judd Apatow). You're a kind and thoughtful person with a passion for photography; ideally you'll reach "satisfaction" one day soon.

[The Mikey]

Thank you for the kind words.

Look, in all honesty, a lot of it is on me. A lot of it is on me. My fear of rejection and self confidence issues probably being the biggest culprits on top of my fear of losing that person who I’ve been crushing on. Though in some cases, it wouldn’t hurt to cut them loose. Mind the following off-course thing, but it’s kind of a vent…

In the case of my (now former) coworker, what made this rejection so painful is the bond I feel like we built. The fact that she would open up to me. Maybe not a lot, maybe not my best friend, that’s fine, but she would tell me what’s bothering her at times. Her family life, her issues with her dad, shit like that from time to time, not everything.

I was nothing but friendly to her and if anything she’d know I was a pretty safe bet. I’d understand if she wasn’t interested in me at all and told me so when I asked for a date. I didn’t mince words when I asked, that same kind of directness would also be appreciated. Yeah, it woulda hurt like shit, but I would have known on the spot and cry about it later. I would have been hurt one way or another.

The shittiest part though was not responding to my texts or being flakey after… alllll of that. After us being vulnerable with each other and being buddies and whatnot. That shit hurt way worse than if I was simply rejected. To quote Paul Cicero in Goodfellas, “[she] treated me like a fuckin jerk, like I was never nothing [her]. […] now I gotta turn my back on [her].”

It’s silly, but it’s kinda the way it is for me. Not intentionally, but it happens. If they reach out I’ll still be friendly, but I won’t accept any future date invites from them if they didn’t take me up on mine…

Ultimately what I’m trying to say, rejected by her? Fine, that doesn’t completely bother me, what does bother me is just leaving me hanging. Someone who, otherwise was her friend too and actually treated her like a person. Now for sure that doesn’t entitle me to jackshit, but come on, that’s a shitty move to pull on someone who was your pal too.

*sigh*

Back to what we were talking about though, I haven’t done the work. I’ve done some but not all. I did start on therapy and it’s been a bit of a tough road since I’m still scared of rejection and getting my self esteem in order has been tough. It’s not all there and I feel like I regress sometimes. It’s not DNLs fault. It’s mostly mine, it’s on me for not actually trying hard enough.

What I need to do is actually talk to women who I find attractive. I know I shouldn’t talk to *only* them, but in all honesty? I’m not interested in talking to most people. I’m introverted as fuck and what little energy I have left, I’m not about to spend it on some rando. I speak to plenty of people on a regular basis for work, I’m just awkward and shy too. But when you find someone you have shit in common with… the conversation just gets 10x easier.

I did a story at a county library, the nice lady we interviewed live on air, she was a nerd too. Total book worm nerd, but a nerd and she understood some of the shit I was talking about. I didn’t find her attractive for a few reasons, namely she was older, married, had kids and I don’t remember what else, she was very nice but didn’t ping my radar. Point is, she was very easy to talk to as opposed to some other women my age. Even some non nerd women I can speak to easily, yet when I’m attracted to them it falls apart.

I forget what the hell else I was gonna say. But I mean, I figure DNLs not completely wrong. Plus they mean well and I can’t fault them for what’s going on in my head. It’s a matter of me doing and breaking free from myself, but lemme say it’s hard as fucking hell.

I do have one regret today, I didn’t talk to this girl at the gym. Not to ask for a date, no, but to compliment her dope as hell Metroid tattoo. She was in the middle of her workout (doing push-ups or something) and I didn’t want to be rude while she was on the ground. I really should have said something after i filled my canteen when she was more eye level.

At least though too, last week I sort of approached a new coworker. I wanna chat her up more… or just chat up random ladies I’m drawn/attracted to maybe legit practice flirting or whatever. Which I can’t figure out very well, but whatever. I know I’m not a piece of shit though.

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