Re: High Libido, Low Drag [vent/disc]

[Guest]

Oh Mikey, I'm sorry you feel lonely and sad. *hugs*
I understand you on when you want to talk to friends about your feelings but feel like you'll be annoying them. I also often stop myself from having conversations about my sad feels because I don't want to be That Sad Girl Who Complains Too Much. My friends already know that I'm not an optimistic person so I don't want to overdo and end up losing friends because who wants to hang out with a constantly sad person? I hear all the time that if I want to have friends I have to have that positive vibe and an optimistic state of mind that attracts people. So I'm afraid my complaining about dating and such will be too annoying and repulsive.

Aaaand sometimes when I do speak to my girl or guy friends they don't really know what to say... Maybe my situation is unusual to them but all I get is an awkward short silence and "it will get better, you'll see" and the subject is changed. Maybe because no one in my cercle is having problems in dating as I do. No, they're not super successful but everyone already had at least one relationship and goes occasionnally on dates/has a boyfriend-girlfriend. I'm the only one I know who is in twenties and has zero experience.

So just to tell you I understand what you're saying and I wish I had an advice or something cheerful to say to you because this thing sucks and loneliness sucks too.

Aw, thank you. -hugs-

Yeah, I don't want to be downer either, so I'll tend to stand with a quiet reserve and a neutral squinty Clint Eastwood face or a slight smile. Most of my friends know I'm pretty upbeat, easy going, very relaxed in a lot of ways, and for the most part I am. I'm a naturally introverted fellow, but I don't mind getting excited and happy and being ridiculous because I like all that. I like laughing. I'm naturally more optimistic with a realist twist, as in, I don't raise my expectations more than I need to or should, but I'm always willing to give someone or something the benefit of the doubt.

The only other reason I don't complain about my situation is because, much like you, I don't want to sound like a broken gorram record.

Most of my dude friends don't have much to say or give me in terms of advice, ironically, I'm the one giving advice or pro-tips sometimes. D: A lot of the advice/tips I've gathered from here and DNL, so I know it's not gone to waste. :DD The only times I get "It'll get better" is from OTG, she means well and I understand what she's getting at.

All I gotta say is, you don't need to give advice or have anything cheerful to say, being there is good enough for me. If you have something to say, advice, cheerful things, musings, personal anecdotes, anything is fine by me. My audio engineering professor once said, 70% of the time all it takes is being there. I have very little experience as well, I'd say maybe 0 to 1xp in dating. I still haven't kissed a girl, and peck on the head doesn't count, especially if said kiss brought her anxiety levels up.

Again, I wouldn't worry about not having anything for me. It's cool, just being here and taking the time to comment is awesome enough. And that goes for all of you guys. <3

Here's to date-less solidarity, SadPanda. -hugs-

[Guest]

This is more of a series of thoughts that have run through my head in the least few hours, if anything else.

A buddy of mine is coming home for the weekend next week, which is great, he let me and another bro know thru a group text. He's an awesome dude. But then he mentioned how he would want to try to have sex with a mutual friend of ours. That's cool too, I got no problem with that. Then I remembered how earlier I mentioned to this fellow how I thought this friend was also cute, my buddy asks me, "Oh, hey you want me to talk to her for you?" I made it clear to my homie that I had asked her out myself last year and I was barking up the wrong tree.

Which brings me back to my initial thought, the whole reason I decided to reply to myself, I have to wonder, what if I simply can't date? What if there really isn't somebody out there for me? It's a scary thought, sure. It makes me wonder... especially when in the last week I've seen some less conventionally attractive people with partners.



Eh, I dunno what to do anymore. Why can't I find any of the single nerdy girls if my more typical clean-cut girls don't like me?



(ah, who am I kidding; girls don't like me)

[Guest]

You hit the nail pretty squarely when you talked about not being allowed to feel anything. If you try not to feel anything, what you do feel will come out in weird ways.

I still don't know what this means or even implies. I mean, define weird ways?

[PintsizeBro]

It's kind of hard to explain, which I realize is not helpful to you. But you come across as being primarily concerned with suppressing your inconvenient emotions. You suppress anger rather than express it, and the opening premise of this thread was that you wanted a way to get rid of your sex drive all together.

Do you have access to therapy? I know it's kind of a go-to suggestion on help forums, but it can be extremely helpful. But I can just imagine how that first session would go... "Some random guy on an internet forum says I'm trying to suppress my inconvenient emotions. Is he right? If he is, what do I do about that?"

Sorry I can't be of more help. I've actually thought about your questions a lot, but I still don't have the answers I wish I could give you.

[Guest]

I haven't even the slightest clue as to how I suppress anger, tbh. If I had to, I guess I just yell at the top of my lungs when I'm driving on the highway to express anger. Idk I'm a very mellow dude and I try to keep it zen. And yes, I did wanna get rid of my sex drive (and I still kinda do), it sucks.

Well, see, I dunno I even know if I need therapy. I know I have issues, everyone does, but that doesn't mean I need therapy. I don't actually have any real mental issues that I know of.

But, it's okay if you have nothing for me. :3

[Guest]

It's been nearly 8 months since I last posted in this thread. Things have changed over time, but that's mostly from a professional standpoint. So things are good there.

The love life though is still non-existent and I'm still terribly lonely. Some days more than others. But the last couple of weeks since this day have been off. I think that kinda screwed me up. I've been feeling lonelier than usual and sadder than usual.

I sincerely hope it's nothing big and just a phase, but I have been feeling miserably lonely with not a whole lot to help me these last few weeks. Before that incident I had asked out a girl from my past to no avail, she's tryna get over her now ex so I'll leave her be but I genuinely do enjoy her company and sharing a beer with her a lot (she's really funny, sweet, an artist too and a ginger [!!!]). But she's still cool with me, we're still friends.

Anyway, here, have some tunes.

[Guest]

I'm sexually frustrated. There.

I said it.

[jcorozza]

Mikey, I'm going to have to go ahe0ad and bring up Pintsize's suggestion about seeing a therapist. You do not need "mental issues" to see one. Sometimes a therapist is just a good neutral person to vent to (and one you're paying, so you don't have to feel bad if they're doing all the listening all the time!). While I have some anxiety and depression, I've been pretty stable, and most of what I've talking with my therapist about is job stress (soooo much job stress) and dating frustrations. The other thing is, I've been coming here for about a year, and it seems like you continue to go through the same stuff over and over, and what's that quote about insanity? You know the one.

[Guest]

Mikey, I'm going to have to go ahe0ad and bring up Pintsize's suggestion about seeing a therapist.  You do not need "mental issues" to see one.  Sometimes a therapist is just a good neutral person to vent to (and one you're paying, so you don't have to feel bad if they're doing all the listening all the time!). While I have some anxiety and depression, I've been pretty stable, and most of what I've talking with my therapist about is job stress (soooo much job stress) and dating frustrations.  The other thing is, I've been coming here for about a year, and it seems like you continue to go through the same stuff over and over, and what's that quote about insanity?  You know the one.

Can't really afford therapy that's the thing. Last semester I was gonna go see the college's therapist (since 30-minute appointments were free if I was a student) but I never got around to it because my frustration and loneliness and sadness would come and go. The swimming helped too, but overall and sadfeels came and went before I knew it!

I go through the same dating stuff over and over again because I really don't know what I'm doing and when I do try something else, well, it doesn't work. Then I get more frustrated and more shy/averse about whatever it is I screwed up. And when I get frustrated I merely get discouraged and just kinda give up. Matter of fact, I actually decided to give up on dating & stuff since Halloween perhaps, I was feeling pretty down after that aforementioned party (but I still enjoy the views).

Ah yeah, I know the insanity quote. I dun like it, if I'm being honest.

So therapy, eh?

[Werel]

Therapy can be really handy just for verbalizing stuff to a neutral third party. For me, a lot of the time, just the act of describing a problem in an intelligible way to someone else can get me to an answer (like "huh, now that I hear myself put it that way, I SHOULD just get rid of that big jar of pickles, it's taking up too much room in my fridge" or whatever). They can also serve as an honest observer of your behavior and make suggestions for how to improve it, without the kind of reluctance friends or family have about hurting feelings. A lot of therapists have sliding-scale fees (check this out), and if you're getting health insurance through your job, it'll sometimes cover a certain number of appointments. Can't hurt to try, right?

On the dating front, I think you identified one of the main problems you've got: when you fail once at a new approach, you ditch it forever. Nobody gets new shit right on their first try! But if there's no second/third/fortieth try, you just end up thinking you suck forever and ever amen. If you wanted to work on dating stuff (which you don't have to right now, if you're feeling cool about taking a break), I'd suggest re-trying things which didn't go right the first time; what's the last thing that went badly, and how can you give it an improved shot?

[Guest]

Therapy can be really handy just for verbalizing stuff to a neutral third party. For me, a lot of the time, just the act of describing a problem in an intelligible way to someone else can get me to an answer (like "huh, now that I hear myself put it that way, I SHOULD just get rid of that big jar of pickles, it's taking up too much room in my fridge" or whatever). They can also serve as an honest observer of your behavior and make suggestions for how to improve it, without the kind of reluctance friends or family have about hurting feelings. A lot of therapists have sliding-scale fees (check this out), and if you're getting health insurance through your job, it'll sometimes cover a certain number of appointments. Can't hurt to try, right?

On the dating front, I think you identified one of the main problems you've got: when you fail once at a new approach, you ditch it forever. Nobody gets new shit right on their first try! But if there's no second/third/fortieth try, you just end up thinking you suck forever and ever amen. If you wanted to work on dating stuff (which you don't have to right now, if you're feeling cool about taking a break), I'd suggest re-trying things which didn't go right the first time; what's the last thing that went badly, and how can you give it an improved shot?

The god-honest problem I have is "I'm a horny dude that can't find a willing partner of the opposite gender mostly because I'm afraid of them, afraid of what they'll say/think on top of them most likely not finding me attractive anyway which is okay." I mean, I don't suffer from legitimate mental illness other than... sadness took over the emotion switchboard for a moment ohh nooo (yeah, I watched Inside Out). I suppose it can't hurt, no, but thinking of going to therapy is scary as fuck too. D: And as far as I know, my work doesn't seem to offer me health insurance since I'm a lowly part-time employee. Looks like I'm gonna have to look into it.

The last thing that went wrong (or didn't go anywhere, rather) was Tinder, which I deleted this morning again. I honestly don't want to work on dating stuff anymore, I was actually a lot happier when I was getting frustrated by my art. At least art doesn't judge me or think of me as a jerk/creep!

[Wondering]

This is an honest question: Why do you find the thought of therapy scary?

As someone who recently started therapy myself, I can I say I was eager to go and have someone to talk to about all my stuff. I still look forward to my sessions: it's me time. So, I'm genuinely wondering what scares you about the possibility.

You don't have to have a mental illness to go to therapy. People go to couples therapy, for example, just to deal with problems. You have a problem, so that would be reason enough.

Being able to afford it is a different issue, though.

[Guest]

This is an honest question: Why do you find the thought of therapy scary?

As someone who recently started therapy myself, I can I say I was eager to go and have someone to talk to about all my stuff. I still look forward to my sessions: it's me time. So, I'm genuinely wondering what scares you about the possibility.

You don't have to have a mental illness to go to therapy. People go to couples therapy, for example, just to deal with problems. You have a problem, so that would be reason enough.

Being able to afford it is a different issue, though.

I dunno. I'm afraid of being misdiagnosed? We may not mesh well? May end up feeling worse than before? They may not actually care since I'm really just whining about how I'm not getting laid and it's nobody's fault but my own? Those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head, tbh. But I mean, is it really a problem when the reality of it is it's just me being dumb and scared for no discernible reason and making poor social choices along the way?

I really don't know why, it just... frightened me for a moment. D:

[bomaye]

I am/was in a similar position to you. Desensitize yourself to girls. Think of every male you've ever met who sucked or you thought was dumb or went "Really?" to. There is a female analogue of that. Now think of every male you've ever met who's had just the right sense of humour or an excitable interest in something or whatevs. There's female analogues of that too.

Also, as a generality, girls younger than you are more likely to be impressed by you even if you suck. If you're worried about what other people think, as long as she's in your half-your-age-plus-seven (high school girls are a little sketchy regardless of them being in that range, though)

Also, don't fap for like a week. Your testosterone will peak around Day 7, you'll have more temporary confidence (its your body's way of gearing you to mate), more willing to take risks, and girls will subconsciously sense that you're packing heat

[Guest]

I am/was in a similar position to you. Desensitize yourself to girls. Think of every male you've ever met who sucked or you thought was dumb or went "Really?" to. There is a female analogue of that. Now think of every male you've ever met who's had just the right sense of humour or an excitable interest in something or whatevs. There's female analogues of that too.

Also, as a generality, girls younger than you are more likely to be impressed by you even if you suck. If you're worried about what other people think, as long as she's in your half-your-age-plus-seven (high school girls are a little sketchy regardless of them being in that range, though)

Also, don't fap for like a week. Your testosterone will peak around Day 7, you'll have more temporary confidence (its your body's way of gearing you to mate), more willing to take risks, and girls will subconsciously sense that you're packing heat

Here's the thing, I can talk to women just fine. Like you mentioned I've met great ladies and not so great ladies, that's not a problem. What *is* a problem is when I'm attracted to a woman where things get a little hairy and/or falls apart. It feels like they can smell it, sure as a fuckin' drug dog can they can smell it or they can see it. So then I'm scared I may have inadvertently creeped them out by my being attracted to them so I keep that attraction to myself. Never have I had anyone not ghost on me for awhile before I or they felt comfortable to talk to me or I talk to them again.

And for the record I'm gonna be 24 next week, so high school aged girls haven't been option for a long time or at least since I turned 18. Usually it's the women in my age range 20 to 29-ish that really don't want anything to do with me and that's okay.

Ya think so? A couple of years ago when I had gone to Haiti I didn't fap for about a week and well, I didn't really feel or notice much of a difference. In fact, when I've faced sadfeels I'll not masturbate for a few days and I don't really notice much of a difference there either.

[Werel]

girls will subconsciously sense that you're packing heat

I'm pretty sure I don't have a mystical radar to tell if a dude's balls are full or not

Mikey, let's talk turkey:

It feels like they can smell it, sure as a fuckin' drug dog can they can smell it or they can see it. So then I'm scared I may have inadvertently creeped them out by my being attracted to them so I keep that attraction to myself. Never have I had anyone not ghost on me for awhile before I or they felt comfortable to talk to me or I talk to them again.

Okay, let's agree on a few things:

1. There is nothing inherently wrong or creepy about being attracted to someone.

2. It is laudable to wish to avoid making other people uncomfortable.

3. Women do not have superhuman powers to sense your attraction, nor any other kind of superhuman powers (I WISH).

4. Many people are attracted to others without making them uncomfortable. You can do it too.

5. There is a pattern where when you make your attraction to someone known, they back off.

The problem isn't that women are like drug dogs who can smell attraction and run away from it because EWWW BONERS. (See bomaye's point about how women are actually pretty much the same as men in that there are lots of kinds of them, some are cool and some aren't, they do not have bonus psychic powers, etc.) If I had to guess, the problem is that there's something about how you make your attraction known that makes women uncomfortable. And it's really logical to conclude that it's not that they're made uncomfortable by your being attracted to them, but by your severe discomfort with your own attraction to women. If you feel like being into somebody is a shameful gross inconvenient thing, and you present it like "BAD NEWS, THIS SHAMEFUL GROSS INCONVENIENT THING IS HAPPENING," of course the person's gonna want to back off for a while. The common denominator here is your suspicion that you and your sexuality are fundamentally creepy and gross and unwanted, and nobody wants to interact with a big heaping pile o' fear and shame. Women can't smell your attraction, people can sense fear and shame.

So when you make it known that you're into somebody, how do you go about it? Are you all apologies, or making pre-emptive strikes against yourself, or acting like you're just waiting for them to flip out and beat you with a frying pan?

(PEE ESS. Therapy can also be for things like "I've got this persistent idea that my attraction to women is point blank unwelcome and creepy")

[bomaye]

I'm pretty sure I don't have a mystical radar to tell if a dude's balls are full or not

How would you know, it's subconscious.

[Werel]

I'm pretty sure I don't have a mystical radar to tell if a dude's balls are full or not

How would you know, it's subconscious.

There's no mod tag on this just yet, but plz be caaaaareful on the "telling women what's true of their minds" front. Implication is that you've got access to knowledge of the workings of women's subconscious while women themselves don't, and that's not remotely cool.

I can see it being plausible that someone flush with testosterone would be willing to do greater risk-taking with sex and dating, but any results'd be from people reacting to their behavior, not sniffing out the last time they came.

[Guest]

Mikey, let's talk turkey:

Mmm, turkey...

Okay, let's agree on a few things:

1. There is nothing inherently wrong or creepy about being attracted to someone.

2. It is laudable to wish to avoid making other people uncomfortable.

3. Women do not have superhuman powers to sense your attraction, nor any other kind of superhuman powers (I WISH).

4. Many people are attracted to others without making them uncomfortable. You can do it too.

5. There is a pattern where when you make your attraction to someone known, they back off.

Correct, there's nothing wrong with being attracted to anyone, that's fine and I get it. And yes, the last thing I wanna do is make anyone feel uncomfortable for me being attracted to them. But women don't? Don't they have the hidden "Woman's Intuition" Perk? I'm pretty sure some ladies told me they had an idea of me being into them but weren't sure. The best way I can think of being attracted to anyone and not skeeving them out is by keeping it to myself which is par the course.

Well it feels like they back off, I don't know if they really did back-up or are trying not to hurt me. In which case, I appreciate, but I've already been hurt, there's not much else they could do if they stuck around.

The problem isn't that women are like drug dogs who can smell attraction and run away from it because EWWW BONERS. (See bomaye's point about how women are actually pretty much the same as men in that there are lots of kinds of them, some are cool and some aren't, they do not have bonus psychic powers, etc.) If I had to guess, the problem is that there's something about how you make your attraction known that makes women uncomfortable. And it's really logical to conclude that it's not that they're made uncomfortable by your being attracted to them, but by your severe discomfort with your own attraction to women. If you feel like being into somebody is a shameful gross inconvenient thing, and you present it like "BAD NEWS, THIS SHAMEFUL GROSS INCONVENIENT THING IS HAPPENING," of course the person's gonna want to back off for a while. The common denominator here is your suspicion that you and your sexuality are fundamentally creepy and gross and unwanted, and nobody wants to interact with a big heaping pile o' fear and shame. Women can't smell your attraction, people can sense fear and shame.

So when you make it known that you're into somebody, how do you go about it? Are you all apologies, or making pre-emptive strikes against yourself, or acting like you're just waiting for them to flip out and beat you with a frying pan?

The way I make my attraction known usually is by asking them out on a date and you know how that goes. I really don't know where or how else I show or could show my attraction to anyone and I don't really know how they could sense my fear & whatnot because I don't ever say to them that my attraction is shameful, usually I say something along the lines of "This is hard for me to say so I'll go ahead and say it and you can say no, it's totally cool, but do you wanna go out on a date or something?" Sometimes maybe my voice will be a little trembly but that's because I'm nervous and scared and feel like I tossed a frag into our friendship and it's my fault that they may not want to talk to me afterwards. Like... I don't want them to think I was harboring feelings for them for a long time just that they know I think they're awesome people, but that's not how it works I guess.

There was another time I asked another friend of mine out (over the phone) but it seemed like she flipped out because she was confused and wasn't sure of my intentions (Well, crap). So of course I apologized and since then I think she's hated me. But what do you mean pre-emptive strikes?

I really don't say or try to do anything too weird... yeah, I'm awkward at times with women I'm attracted to but that's because I'm nervous around them. D:

(PEE ESS. Therapy can also be for things like "I've got this persistent idea that my attraction to women is point blank unwelcome and creepy")

Well I have an idea why I think that, stems from when I was a kid when I was told by a girl I liked through other kids that she thought I was gross. At 11 y/o. Well that's certainly reassuring!

[Werel]

But women don't? Don't they have the hidden "Woman's Intuition" Perk?

No. Nope. That would be cool though.

Sometimes people will pick up on vibes. Sometimes they won't. Depends on the person; I really don't think women are significantly better at this than men.

The best way I can think of being attracted to anyone and not skeeving them out is by keeping it to myself which is par the course.

And the best way to never be in a car accident is to never enter a car, but then you miss out on a lot. If you never risk acting on your attraction, you also miss out on a lot. I think you overestimate how badly you're likely to skeeve out a woman by respectfully conveying that you find her cool and attractive.

I really don't know where or how else I show or could show my attraction to anyone

Doing a little flirting before asking somebody out rarely hurts (especially if you've previously been in Just Friends territory; a woman is less likely to be surprised/blindsided if someone who's been flirtatious asks her out than a dude who's never sent signals). Go cheesy, if your style is goofy. Literally fucking winking is always an option.

I say something along the lines of "This is hard for me to say so I'll go ahead and say it and you can say no, it's totally cool, but do you wanna go out on a date or something?"

That kind of earnestness about your nervousness can be charming to some people (personally I'd be all dawwww), but for others, hearing "this is hard for me to say but I'm plucking up all this courage to do it" is going to make them nervous as hell. Like, if you're having to gather up all this moxy to do this, it's clearly a big deal to you, and that puts the pressure on them. I also have a feeling that "it's totally cool if you say no" could be off-putting-- I get that you're trying to be as chill about it as possible, but in the pursuit of chill, as with many things, less is more. You show that it's cool if she says no by not treating it like a big deal; right now your words are saying "no biggie" and your actions/demeanor are saying "HUGE BIGGIE."

If you believe expressing attraction is tossing a frag into your friendship, it'll be tough to play it cool and not make the other person nervous. It doesn't have to be a frag. It can seriously be no big deal. The more convinced you are that the results will be disastrous, the more that anxiety is going to rub off on the lady in question (again, not cause she's got spooky estrogen ESP, but because humans are well-attuned to each other's nervousness).

But what do you mean pre-emptive strikes?

Tearing yourself down before the other person gets a chance to. "I know I'm not the best-looking guy, but..." "It's totally cool if you don't see me this way, I wouldn't either..." "I don't want to make you feel weird, I know I've weirded people out before..." You know, shitting on yourself cause you're afraid of rejection.

There was another time I asked another friend of mine out (over the phone) but it seemed like she flipped out because she was confused and wasn't sure of my intentions (Well, crap). So of course I apologized and since then I think she's hated me.

What did she think your intentions were, and why do you think she got the wrong idea? And was this post-high school? Cause kids are weird and you shouldn't take those experiences as fully representative of how things will work for you in the future.

[Guest]

But women don't? Don't they have the hidden "Woman's Intuition" Perk?

No. Nope. That would be cool though.

Sometimes people will pick up on vibes. Sometimes they won't. Depends on the person; I really don't think women are significantly better at this than men.

The best way I can think of being attracted to anyone and not skeeving them out is by keeping it to myself which is par the course.

And the best way to never be in a car accident is to never enter a car, but then you miss out on a lot. If you never risk acting on your attraction, you also miss out on a lot. I think you overestimate how badly you're likely to skeeve out a woman by respectfully conveying that you find her cool and attractive.

I really don't know where or how else I show or could show my attraction to anyone

Doing a little flirting before asking somebody out rarely hurts (especially if you've previously been in Just Friends territory; a woman is less likely to be surprised/blindsided if someone who's been flirtatious asks her out than a dude who's never sent signals). Go cheesy, if your style is goofy. Literally fucking winking is always an option.

I say something along the lines of "This is hard for me to say so I'll go ahead and say it and you can say no, it's totally cool, but do you wanna go out on a date or something?"

That kind of earnestness about your nervousness can be charming to some people (personally I'd be all dawwww), but for others, hearing "this is hard for me to say but I'm plucking up all this courage to do it" is going to make them nervous as hell. Like, if you're having to gather up all this moxy to do this, it's clearly a big deal to you, and that puts the pressure on them. I also have a feeling that "it's totally cool if you say no" could be off-putting-- I get that you're trying to be as chill about it as possible, but in the pursuit of chill, as with many things, less is more. You show that it's cool if she says no by not treating it like a big deal; right now your words are saying "no biggie" and your actions/demeanor are saying "HUGE BIGGIE."

If you believe expressing attraction is tossing a frag into your friendship, it'll be tough to play it cool and not make the other person nervous. It doesn't have to be a frag. It can seriously be no big deal. The more convinced you are that the results will be disastrous, the more that anxiety is going to rub off on the lady in question (again, not cause she's got spooky estrogen ESP, but because humans are well-attuned to each other's nervousness).

But what do you mean pre-emptive strikes?

Tearing yourself down before the other person gets a chance to. "I know I'm not the best-looking guy, but..." "It's totally cool if you don't see me this way, I wouldn't either..." "I don't want to make you feel weird, I know I've weirded people out before..." You know, shitting on yourself cause you're afraid of rejection.

There was another time I asked another friend of mine out (over the phone) but it seemed like she flipped out because she was confused and wasn't sure of my intentions (Well, crap). So of course I apologized and since then I think she's hated me.

What did she think your intentions were, and why do you think she got the wrong idea? And was this post-high school? Cause kids are weird and you shouldn't take those experiences as fully representative of how things will work for you in the future.

I've switched over to my phone, so replying may be a little difficult.

Anyway, I'll trust you that women can't pick up attraction better than guys can.

Honestly, I don't really see what I could miss if I don't act on my attraction.  Sure, I'll be lonely, but I already am, so I don't really know what else I'll be missing. D:  I mean, I've expressed interest rather respectfully most times, I've never said anything nasty to anybody since that's rude. Ironically,  that hasn't gotten me anywhere really.

Ahh, dreaded flirting, I'll be honest with you I still don't know how to flirt at all. I've read the Doc's flirting article many times but it doesn't make any sense to me. What is he talking about with "pushing and pulling"?  And I'm naturally a goof, Prajna has called me her golden retriever puppy before which I thought was funny and awesome, but that doesn't really lend itself to dating, I guess.

I understand if it's a big deal to me and if it puts pressure on them, but my feelings are mine and I have to deal with them, they don't.  I mean, I'm putting my heart on the line here and if they say no, well obviously I'm going to feel bad, but I'll live. They don't have to feel bad because they weren't interested to begin with; I'll be on my merry way after they turn me down so it's no big deal. They're most likely going to say no, so I don't think they have to feel bad about turning me down, nobody else has. In fact, I've been met with Facebook unfriending, woooo. :I

What I meant about tossing a frag though was that there's a chance the friendship may not survive and it's my fault because I just so happened to be attracted to them with that particular bombshell. And usually no, it's not a big deal, I'm usually pretty good at it (well now I am), but it's still nervewracking. The last girl that I asked out said "we can still be friends!" Which I thought was cool and I appreciated very much. I was, as you can imagine, really bummed about it because I really liked this girl, she was a funny nerdy artist with a penchant for the weird.

Oh, so that's what you meant by preemptive strike. No, I don't do anything like that before I ask anyone out ever that's usually pretty weird.

Honestly, I don't know what she thought my intentions were and also I was nervous over the phone so I tripped over my for my own words so maybe that's what threw her off. But honestly, I was just asking for a date, I was already embarrassed and felt like I was being scolded for doing so. And yeah this was post high school, it was a couple years into college actually. D:

[Guest]

There's a couple of more things I wanted to add/express that I didn't get to...

4. Many people are attracted to others without making them uncomfortable. You can do it too.

5. There is a pattern where when you make your attraction to someone known, they back off.

I know that people are attracted to other without making them uncomfortable and I know I can do it, I just don't know how to do it. But even when I try... it doesn't really go anywhere or work for me. Yeah, there's a pattern but that pattern is usually they don't like me like that regardless of anything really.

The problem isn't that women are like drug dogs who can smell attraction and run away from it because EWWW BONERS. If I had to guess, the problem is that there's something about how you make your attraction known that makes women uncomfortable. And it's really logical to conclude that it's not that they're made uncomfortable by your being attracted to them, but by your severe discomfort with your own attraction to women.

What do you mean by my own discomfort with my attraction to women? I'm not really uncomfortable with it, I can say I find a particular woman attractive and would like to date and whatnot, but they probably think it's gross I find them attractive. In my experience most women I know have expressed discomfort rather than flattery about someone approaching them or asking them out. I would rather not be in that camp. D:

If you feel like being into somebody is a shameful gross inconvenient thing, and you present it like "BAD NEWS, THIS SHAMEFUL GROSS INCONVENIENT THING IS HAPPENING," of course the person's gonna want to back off for a while. The common denominator here is your suspicion that you and your sexuality are fundamentally creepy and gross and unwanted, and nobody wants to interact with a big heaping pile o' fear and shame. Women can't smell your attraction, people can sense fear and shame.

Nah, there's nothing wrong with being into someone and it's certainly not inconvenient, but I almost feel like it's inconvenient for the other person. I'm someone they saw as a friend and now I'm into them. Don't you think they'll see it as me being dishonest about that?

And the best way to never be in a car accident is to never enter a car, but then you miss out on a lot. If you never risk acting on your attraction, you also miss out on a lot. I think you overestimate how badly you're likely to skeeve out a woman by respectfully conveying that you find her cool and attractive.

Honestly, I can't help but think they just may be uncomfortable with me and my feels no matter how I go about it, tbh.

If you believe expressing attraction is tossing a frag into your friendship, it'll be tough to play it cool and not make the other person nervous. It doesn't have to be a frag. It can seriously be no big deal. The more convinced you are that the results will be disastrous, the more that anxiety is going to rub off on the lady in question (again, not cause she's got spooky estrogen ESP, but because humans are well-attuned to each other's nervousness).

Okay, maybe not a frag, but a huge brick tossed into a washing machine. I mean, no, it's not a big deal but it may be for them too. I'm just nervous that they'll be skeeved out. :\

Feel like a broken record here.

And while I'm here, I read the latest DNL Post and I've done everything the post said not to do either, and well, I struggled there really bad.

[Werel]

I mean, I've expressed interest rather respectfully most times, I've never said anything nasty to anybody since that's rude. Ironically, that hasn't gotten me anywhere really.

And while I'm here, I read the latest DNL Post and I've done everything the post said not to do either, and well, I struggled there really bad.

Well, it is a good idea to not do the absolute wrong things. Not being a huge asshole is a necessary first step. But it's not the last step-- being decent is a baseline, not a thing that gets dating results in and of itself. I'm having trouble putting together any thoughts about what makes flirting work, since you said you were having trouble with that, but it's a tough thing to verbalize in ways you haven't already heard. Will think about it.

What do you mean by my own discomfort with my attraction to women?

This:

I'm not really uncomfortable with it, I can say I find a particular woman attractive and would like to date and whatnot, but they probably think it's gross I find them attractive.

If you feel like you're grossing someone out by the very fact of your attraction to them, that doesn't sound like a comfortable feeling. People will often pick up on that kind of discomfort.

In my experience most women I know have expressed discomfort rather than flattery about someone approaching them or asking them out. I would rather not be in that camp. D:

That's... I have to imagine that's a peculiarity to your social circle, unless you're describing them being uncomfortable with the kind of gross fuckboy approaches you would never pull. My experience points to many/most women not being distressed by a polite, respectful approach in the right circumstances. If you're primarily surrounded by women who are not comfortable being asked out (for religious reasons, shyness reasons, whatever the heck), then no wonder your dating life hits a brick wall. You have to be around people who want to date people in order to find someone to date.

I'm someone they saw as a friend and now I'm into them. Don't you think they'll see it as me being dishonest about that?

I think you're getting hung up on the idea of the canonical Nice Guy, who deliberately obscures his romantic intentions in the long run as a way to try and weasel into a woman's sexual favor. What you're talking about is just doing a very normal thing-- building a friendship before deciding you want to be romantically involved with someone. There's nothing dishonest about having your feelings for someone change with time, and unless you're deliberately hiding it for a long time with manipulative intentions, I'm not sure what's dishonest about that.

Honestly, I can't help but think they just may be uncomfortable with me and my feels no matter how I go about it, tbh.

If it's a general making-people-uncomfortable thing, I gotta reiterate the advice to find some seriously honest female friends who might be willing to help walk you through how you come off to women (or people in general). If you don't have anybody like that in your life, it's another vote for "focus on expanding social circles in general."

[Guest]

Well, it is a good idea to not do the absolute wrong things. Not being a huge asshole is a necessary first step. But it's not the last step-- being decent is a baseline, not a thing that gets dating results in and of itself. I'm having trouble putting together any thoughts about what makes flirting work, since you said you were having trouble with that, but it's a tough thing to verbalize in ways you haven't already heard. Will think about it.

If not being a huge asshole/being decent is baseline, among other basics like hygiene, what else am I supposed to, ya know, do? I've been to Wal-Mart, I've seen people in far worse shapes than me that still manage to find a partner.   What more do ladies want from me apart from being respectful and what have you? One of the screenshots in the newest post hit kinda hard because one dude said that for him to even get any kind of a response/attention he had to send out something gross/ridiculous when she replied to him she said "Hello" is more than enough.

Uhhh, whaaaa?

Eh, don't worry about flirting I guess. I don't know what it looks like tbh.

If you feel like you're grossing someone out by the very fact of your attraction to them, that doesn't sound like a comfortable feeling. People will often pick up on that kind of discomfort.

I guess I'm not being clear? I have a guess they're not interested in me, therefore they're uncomfortable about my expressing interest in them? I dunno anymore.

That's... I have to imagine that's a peculiarity to your social circle, unless you're describing them being uncomfortable with the kind of gross fuckboy approaches you would never pull. My experience points to many/most women not being distressed by a polite, respectful approach in the right circumstances. If you're primarily surrounded by women who are not comfortable being asked out (for religious reasons, shyness reasons, whatever the heck), then no wonder your dating life hits a brick wall. You have to be around people who want to date people in order to find someone to date.

Well I had seen on Facebook how a friend of mine (who btw is very cute), was asked out by a gas station attendant. And man some of the responses were not really nice.    My friend has a boyfriend which I understand her laughing it off but some of the other "annoyed" responses weren't terribly nice. Can you really blame a dude for trying?

As far as I can tell nobody is really interested in anybody or nobody wants to date or everyone I know isn't being straight with me. All my time on OLD I saw people who weren't interested in diddly, all the women I've asked out IRL weren't interested in diddly either but then got boyfriends?  

I think you're getting hung up on the idea of the canonical Nice Guy, who deliberately obscures his romantic intentions in the long run as a way to try and weasel into a woman's sexual favor. What you're talking about is just doing a very normal thing-- building a friendship before deciding you want to be romantically involved with someone. There's nothing dishonest about having your feelings for someone change with time, and unless you're deliberately hiding it for a long time with manipulative intentions, I'm not sure what's dishonest about that.

Yeah I know what the Nice Guy is. Sometimes yeah that's how it starts other times, yeah I'm attracted to them, but they befriend me if that makes sense? But I mean I know what I'm doing I just don't want them to think ill of me for holding it in for however long.

If it's a general making-people-uncomfortable thing, I gotta reiterate the advice to find some seriously honest female friends who might be willing to help walk you through how you come off to women (or people in general). If you don't have anybody like that in your life, it's another vote for "focus on expanding social circles in general."

All my female friends have kinda dispersed into... wherever they went or moved away or have boyfriends already and don't do anything without them. And expanding my social circle eh? Right now I'm not really in a position to do that since I work nights and weekends and everybody else works most likely during the day. Plus, I guess I have the RPG Scene, but most of those people are about 20 to 25 years my seniors with families. I've asked around some of my friends too, but they don't know anybody else either.

-shrug-

Thanks anyway, Werel. <3

[Wondering]

Well I had seen on Facebook how a friend of mine (who btw is very cute), was asked out by a gas station attendant. And man some of the responses were not really nice.    My friend has a boyfriend which I understand her laughing it off but some of the other "annoyed" responses weren't terribly nice. Can you really blame a dude for trying?

I can blame a guy for hitting on a customer, yes. If that's what you're saying, that he hit on her while she was getting gas? That's not cool. That's one of those going-about-her-business, not-there-to-socialize tasks that DNL talks about not being the right context for an approach.

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